DDOS Attack Takes Down Russian Source of Canon Pre-Release Details

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sanj

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I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!
 
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takesome1

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None your business Alaska
This is not a question of "growing a pair." Putin put nukes on the table with his first speech. Russia remains capable of turning western Europe and America into glass parking lots. Well we got them too! won't matter one single bit after everything we know is destroyed. And Putin won't really do it! is not a strategy, it's wishful thinking. The time to prevent this was 8 years ago. 6 years ago. Even one year ago.

You are right that the name doesn't matter. Not one bit. Absent a miracle, Russia will win this. The best we can hope for at this point is that once they've won, Putin will be willing to trade an independent Ukraine for an end to sanctions and written/signed security guarantees. That's wishful thinking too. But it's at least plausible wishful thinking given the array of sanctions against Russia and the realities of their nuclear arsenal.
What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)

Biden lost his bargaining power. He was very clear with Putin, he knew the consequences at that point and was willing to accept the sanctions.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.
Sure the US Citizens would be nervous without that reassurance. But didn't we elect our President to negotiate from the best possible position, sometimes protecting our interest is worth a little stress.

Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion. The show last night in Prime Time should have pulled at a few hearts. (I thought it sad and somewhat offensive last night that during the show one of the sponsors was begging for money for homeless dogs, at the same time we are watching families separated and scattered all over Europe)
 
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dtaylor

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Maybe you should have checked your assumptions before replying?

There have already been two presidential elections in Ukraine since Euromaidan.
Seriously?

The Russians in the east rejected the revolution which led to Poroshenko's 'snap election', which means they implicitly rejected the election results. Their subsequent separation and the resulting civil conflict means they didn't recognize or participate in Zelenskyy's election either. It doesn't matter if you, I, or anyone else thinks that they are wrong. They think they are right and they felt so strongly about it they left, and didn't come back even under threat of violence.

When that happens you can try to peacefully convince the separatists that they are wrong and should come back. Or you can let them go. Or you can resort to violence. Option 3 is always a rotten option. But it's especially stupid when the separatists are ethnic Russians living on your border with Russia. Sticking your head in the sand and saying but there was an election!!! is pretty much what led us to this point.

I feel for the Ukrainian people who are now fighting for their country. I feel for Zelenskyy who is courageously standing with his people trying to repel this. I feel for him even though I think he could have and should have taken steps to prevent this. And I despise Putin for blowing this situation wide open. Do not think I excuse Putin his evil because of my critiques of the governments of the west and of Ukraine.

But I will not stick my head in the sand. This is a shocking failure across three U.S. presidential administrations, the administrations of multiple European nations, and the last two Ukrainian presidents. No one was an adult in this situation. For 8 years no one considered the hard realities of the situation or the potential consequences of their actions.
 
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dtaylor

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What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)
I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power other than Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.
Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion.
I hope to God not. I'm sorry, but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen. And I despise any and every politician, any and every member of any western administration, who in any way misled Zelenskyy on this point. If Zelenskyy had known he would be on his own in this he might have taken steps which would have prevented it. Everyone who misled him has blood on their hands.
 

takesome1

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None your business Alaska
I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power other than Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.


Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.


I hope to God not. I'm sorry, but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen. And I despise any and every politician, any and every member of any western administration, who in any way misled Zelenskyy on this point. If Zelenskyy had known he would be on his own in this he might have taken steps which would have prevented it. Everyone who misled him has blood on their hands.
I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works.

And if Zelensky had known the outcome?
Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.

"but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?
 

dtaylor

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I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works.
Fair enough. Neither of us can predict that, and maybe, just maybe, the bluff would have worked and Russia would not have invaded.

And if Zelensky had known the outcome?
Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.
Well...as a mere citizen I don't want more nations to have nuclear weapons. But if I was the leader of a nation state, a nuclear weapon is the best way to insure that no one ever invades. Ukraine almost certainly regrets giving up their nukes for what is now a worthless piece of paper. I hate to say that, but reality is what it is, not what anyone might wish it to be.

"but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?
If they invade more non-NATO states concurrent with, or immediately after, this invasion then they run the very real risk that NATO will decide there is no choice but to go to war. If they do nothing after this and 10 years down the road some other altercation results in a Russian invasion of a single non-NATO state, they'll probably get away with it.

That's been the historical reality though since roughly the end of World War II. After the treaty organizations were formed, NATO states didn't touch Warsaw Pact states and Warsaw Pact states didn't touch NATO states. Otherwise both the U.S. and Russia invaded states without consequence from the other power. I'm not trying to create equivalence here. Some invasions could be morally justified and others not so much. Just pointing out that reality hasn't changed. If Russia decides they have reason to invade a non-NATO state there's not much we're willing to do about it, even if their reasons are nonsense and their actions are evil. This has been true for a long time in both directions.
 

SwissFrank

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What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)

Biden lost his bargaining power. He was very clear with Putin, he knew the consequences at that point and was willing to accept the sanctions.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.
Sure the US Citizens would be nervous without that reassurance. But didn't we elect our President to negotiate from the best possible position, sometimes protecting our interest is worth a little stress.

Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion. The show last night in Prime Time should have pulled at a few hearts. (I thought it sad and somewhat offensive last night that during the show one of the sponsors was begging for money for homeless dogs, at the same time we are watching families separated and scattered all over Europe)

> Biden lost his bargaining power.

Did anyone HAVE any bargaining power? It seems like Putin's decided to invade no matter what happens, and doesn't care if that end is the economic destruction of his own citizenry. If someone doesn't care about their citizenry, I'd say there IS no bargaining power.

> The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.

What the heck makes you think it was ever ON the table? No president since Eisenhower has seen an open conflict with Americans killing Russians, that could escalate to a nuclear exchange, as being worth the potential price. The US president has to take responsibility for the US to continue to exist. They're not just some bozo moron on the internet that can rattle off threats with no actual responsibility for the consequences, shooting his mouth off with imputy, safe in the knowledge no-one would actually do what he says and hold him responsible.

> This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.

You don't seem to understand that politicians say things that aren't true all the time. Look at Putin: "we're just having our annual wargames," yet we now have found completed invasion plans dated before the wargames began. Look at Trump, who at his worst clocked 107 fact-check lies just in one day a CPAC. Biden says X. Does Putin therefore know X? Or does Putin really truly know no more than he did before? Biden can do whatever he wants, no matter what he's said, and Putin knows that. You're definitely wrong that any statement somehow locks Biden into a course of action, or makes Putin think Biden's locked into a course of action.

But second, the US signals its actions quite clearly. As I stated above, US shooting at Russians simply isn't on the table excepting treaty-mandated mutual defense. We publish white papers on our nuclear responses, and so on, because when you're in a position of power, being predictable is important. This prevents miscalculated actions by parties who may not know what the US response will be.

> But didn't we elect our President to negotiate from the best possible position, sometimes protecting our interest is worth a little stress.

??? Sure we elected our president to negotiate from the best possible position. And that position is: 1) super-powerful military, 2) super-powerful economy, 3) super-powerful nets of allies all over the world.

And Americans' interests are best protected by destroying Russia's economy WITHOUT getting into a fucking nuclear exchange. And last I checked, that's what's happening.

> Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.

You may not really understand economics and finance and warfare, but there's nothing that looks weak when Biden snaps his fingers and the Ruble falls to record lows, the Russian stock exchange is so afraid of what the losses will be it doesn't even open, of Russia being cut off from over 80% of its foreign reserves. You want to see weak? Look at the sloppy Russian campaign compared to even the 1991 invasion of Iraq. The US, 30 years ago, was flying rockets into ventilator shafts. The Russians cannot even hit a runway in six tries. THAT makes the US look not just strong, but nearly god-like.
 
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AlanF

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I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!
I have read this thread too. It is fortunate for humanity that some here spend their time fighting over Dynamic Range rather than being in charge of international politics.
 
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takesome1

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None your business Alaska
THAT makes the US look not just strong, but nearly god-like.
Sure Biden did exactly what he said he would do. Russia has the expertise to know what the impact of the action would be.
"god like" hardly. The conflict will end, Russia's economy will recover.
I understand your scared of Putin. If you run like a sheep you will be chased by wolves.
 
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neuroanatomist

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A person can only blame the former so long.
A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.
 
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neuroanatomist

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Also, I believe you just assigned me a gender. Are you sure on that one, some would take offense if you missed the mark. Would it be similar and wrong if I were to believe you were a "she" based on you possibly having an educational background similar to Blossom's. This is not an insult either, she is a very intelligent lady.
Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.
 
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takesome1

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None your business Alaska
Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.

Keeping in mind, I never referred to Ukraine as "The" Ukraine. My point was never whether it was correct, or incorrect, rather the rudeness toward those those who did not know that they should not use "The Ukraine".

For you assigning gender, I took no offense. I am not that Politically Correct.
 
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takesome1

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None your business Alaska
A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.
True, but no matter what you post, I post or anyone else posts on this thread there is no impact in Ukraine or that situation.
Fourteen months in, how many of those idiotic statements from past Presidents or their actions impact this situation?
It seems to me this is all Bidens to deal with.
Of course it was influenced over the last decade by US and NATO policies.
 
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SwissFrank

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Sure Biden did exactly what he said he would do. Russia has the expertise to know what the impact of the action would be.
"god like" hardly. The conflict will end, Russia's economy will recover.
I understand your scared of Putin. If you run like a sheep you will be chased by wolves.
In response to the Crimean Anschluss, Russia's GDP fell 35% from 2013 levels. Even today, the GDP is still 25% below 2013 levels.

And the current sanctions are FAR worse than 2014.

Given that Russia hasn't recovered yet from sanctions placed eight years ago, only a retard would blithely predict recovery is around the corner.

1646742997131.png

God-like: hardly? Well gosh, so closely reasoned there I cannot help but be swayed by your inescapable logic. But fair enough, YOU tell US how you would summarize the US flying missiles down ventilator shafts 30 years ago when Russia cannot hit a runway in six tries last week. If not god-like, then at a very least, "far more competent" would be applicable.

Scared? Moi? It's not my currency that's tanked 50%, it's not my stock exchange that's closed for a week in fear, it's not my foreign currency reserves that have just been seized, it's not my supply of microchips, my sales of crude oil and gas, not my people's ability to buy all the consumer goods my country doesn't make. It's not my country that was forced to make it literally illegal to speak out against the war, or had to arrest 4000 protestors, or that has lost nearly as many soldiers in a week as they lost in Afghanistan in a decade. Maybe you're projecting. Maybe it's you, komrad, who's scared? I'm not scared, I'm stocking up on marshmallows that I'm going to roast over the smoking ruins of Putin's economy.
 

takesome1

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None your business Alaska
In response to the Crimean Anschluss, Russia's GDP fell 35% from 2013 levels. Even today, the GDP is still 25% below 2013 levels.

And the current sanctions are FAR worse than 2014.

Given that Russia hasn't recovered yet from sanctions placed eight years ago, only a retard would blithely predict recovery is around the corner.


God-like: hardly? Well gosh, so closely reasoned there I cannot help but be swayed by your inescapable logic. But fair enough, YOU tell US how you would summarize the US flying missiles down ventilator shafts 30 years ago when Russia cannot hit a runway in six tries last week. If not god-like, then at a very least, "far more competent" would be applicable.

Scared? Moi? It's not my currency that's tanked 50%, it's not my stock exchange that's closed for a week in fear, it's not my foreign currency reserves that have just been seized, it's not my supply of microchips, my sales of crude oil and gas, not my people's ability to buy all the consumer goods my country doesn't make. It's not my country that was forced to make it literally illegal to speak out against the war, or had to arrest 4000 protestors, or that has lost nearly as many soldiers in a week as they lost in Afghanistan in a decade. Maybe you're projecting. Maybe it's you, komrad, who's scared? I'm not scared, I'm stocking up on marshmallows that I'm going to roast over the smoking ruins of Putin's economy.

Retard? Komrad? Are you going to refer to Ukraine as "The Ukraine" now. I am not sure what a komrad is, it must be a phonetic thing.
Not very PC.

Sanctions tend to be two edged sword.
Lets see how everyone's GNP will fair this year with Gas doubling in price, food prices rising and runaway inflation.
All this because of both sanctions and war.

If you have been watching the news you would know that Europe is still getting oil and gas from Russia. Putin has threatened to shut it all down.
What happens then?
 

takesome1

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None your business Alaska
If you don't believe me listen to this description that is some five or so years old. You'll see there is more to the situation than we tend to know about.


Jack
Ukraine is on the other side of the world, so of course most people here know little. To many people stop at the headlines and never get the story from both sides. I prefer to try and read everything I can from both directions.

I started to watch your video, it is over an hour long. It will have to wait till tonight.
 
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