Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite

[niels123]

If the flash transmitter is not on the camera itself (and it is not - it is attached to my StackShot controller), why would I get a Sony transmitter and not a Canon one? If I get the Canon combo, I can use it also with my Canon EOS system and a monolight to shoot studio portraits, right?

correct. i was suggesting to get both: Canon and Sony, they are dirt cheap. but you are right.

Concerning the delay: if it really is 100 microseconds, it is 0.1 miliseconds, which is 1/10.000th of a second or 0.0001 second, not 0.01 second. That's why I find these numbers so ridiculous.

1us (microsecond) =1e-6 seconds
100us =1e-4 seconds

100x100us=1e-2 seconds = 0.01 seconds <<<< 100 units maximum at 100us per each unit. 01-100 range in C.Fn menu. that's number of units, not microseconds in total.

0.01s sync delay set in receiver + 0.01s sync delay set in transmitter = 0.02 seconds total sync delay

Sorry, but I don't get the part about the near distance.

flash wont fire if trigger and receiver is closer than approx. 30cm to each other. in case your trigger will be located at short distance to receiver, you will have to enable "short distance firing" in Godox terms . procedure is as per my note above. it shortens the connection range to 30 meters instead of 100 meters. I do not see this being an issue for your situation though.

Ah! Each N equals already 100 microseconds? I thought that N equals only 1 microsecond. I couldn't think of a reason to set a delay of 1 microsecond and electronics that can reliably do this must be expensive.

Sounds great then, Although 20 ms could still be a little bit too short since it is exactly equal to the reported shutter lag (+ I'm also seeing if the solution can be implemented in the workflow of a friend of mine. He uses a 5D III with Magic Lantern and Full Resolution Silent Picture with DNG output. I think that shutter lag must be considerably longer in that case).

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I should have bene a bit more specific.

We are talking about dedicated extreme macro setups where there are literally no moving parts: a microscope objective in front of a raynox tube lens which is directly in front of the sensor. Everything is done by moving the entire camera-lens-microscope objective combination which is mounted on a high-precision auomated rail with stepper motor to move the setup.

In terms of the delay: I really really do not care about miliseconds because I have the setup in a somewhat darker room where ambient light will have zero influence on the image, even with exposure times of > 1 second. So I will just use an exposure time long enough to match the flash with its delay and if that is a 1 second exposure (it should be doable to trigger the flash somewhere in that 1 second period with a set delay) I am very very happy ;D

The point is that shutter delay is the time until the shutter opens. If you cannot delay the flash until after the shutter opens, it does not matter how long your exposure is, because the flash triggered earlier.

 

[niels123]

I should have bene a bit more specific.

We are talking about dedicated extreme macro setups where there are literally no moving parts: a microscope objective in front of a raynox tube lens which is directly in front of the sensor. Everything is done by moving the entire camera-lens-microscope objective combination which is mounted on a high-precision auomated rail with stepper motor to move the setup.

In terms of the delay: I really really do not care about miliseconds because I have the setup in a somewhat darker room where ambient light will have zero influence on the image, even with exposure times of > 1 second. So I will just use an exposure time long enough to match the flash with its delay and if that is a 1 second exposure (it should be doable to trigger the flash somewhere in that 1 second period with a set delay) I am very very happy ;D

The point is that shutter delay is the time until the shutter opens. If you cannot delay the flash until after the shutter opens, it does not matter how long your exposure is, because the flash triggered earlier.

Makes sense Fingers crossed, I ordered one Godox X1 Trigger and one Godox X1 receiver on Amazon. For a couple of dollars, I ordered the necessary adapters and cables. What I will try is:

RCA splitter on StackShot. Trigger cable to Sony cam on one end. Adapter from the other end to Godox Trigger. The receiver can be mounted on the flash hotshoe and I will set the max delay on both receiver and trigger, which gives 20 ms of delay in total. If it doesn't work, I have a 30-day return policy from Amazon and can simply return them for a full refund.

The other possible option I have been looking into is a Velleman VM206 universal timer which can be configured with some software via usb (using a pc). It can delay signals as much as you want (from 0.1s to, I think days of delay are possible).

 

[rpt]

What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question.

I'm shooting minerals and crystal specimens. I use fluorescent daylight bulbs most of the time because the light better matches daylight than most led's. Problem with LED's is that the spectrum lacks certain wavelengths, which are sometimes vital to the proper color of a mineral. For example, azurite (copper carbonate) is deep blue under daylight and looks turns black under most LED's. Sodium street lights are another well-known example where colors become impossible to see properly.

Ah! And sorry for writing the word shouting instead of shooting but you figured that out.

How about this process - it will be a bit iterative but should work.
[list type=decimal]
[*]focus on the subject
[*]set focusing to manual
[*]set shutter speed to B
[*]darken the room - completely dark
[*]hold down shutter
[*]test fire flash
[*]check exposure of the image
[*]adjust flash power, aperture or ISO and repeat as needed from step 4
[/list]

 

[niels123]

What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question.

I'm shooting minerals and crystal specimens. I use fluorescent daylight bulbs most of the time because the light better matches daylight than most led's. Problem with LED's is that the spectrum lacks certain wavelengths, which are sometimes vital to the proper color of a mineral. For example, azurite (copper carbonate) is deep blue under daylight and looks turns black under most LED's. Sodium street lights are another well-known example where colors become impossible to see properly.

Ah! And sorry for writing the word shouting instead of shooting but you figured that out.

How about this process - it will be a bit iterative but should work.
[list type=decimal]
[*]focus on the subject
[*]set focusing to manual
[*]set shutter speed to B
[*]darken the room - completely dark
[*]hold down shutter
[*]test fire flash
[*]check exposure of the image
[*]adjust flash power, aperture or ISO and repeat as needed from step 4
[/list]

Poeple meka typo's Don't wurry

With the exception of bulb mode that's how I normally checked my exposure and see what flash power I wanted (with Canon and mechanical shutter). As far as I understand, it doesn't solve the flash delay problem when the focusstacking controller form Cognisys is triggering the camera each step during the stack.

 

[jolyonralph]

Hi Niels.

You may well have already seen them but do check out Stephan Wolfsried's articles on mineral photography - he goes into some detail discussing his Stackshot setups and issues.

https://www.mindat.org/user-1664.html#5

Personally I find flash to be too limiting for mineral photomacrography - you really do need to see in advance what is being lit down to the individual (micro)crystal faces.

I would think an investment in better quality (ie expensive) continuous lighting would be wise.

Jolyon (and hello to a fellow mineral person!)

 

[niels123]

Hi Niels.

You may well have already seen them but do check out Stephan Wolfsried's articles on mineral photography - he goes into some detail discussing his Stackshot setups and issues.

https://www.mindat.org/user-1664.html#5

Personally I find flash to be too limiting for mineral photomacrography - you really do need to see in advance what is being lit down to the individual (micro)crystal faces.

I would think an investment in better quality (ie expensive) continuous lighting would be wise.

Jolyon (and hello to a fellow mineral person!)

Thanks Jolyon I have seen the article from Stephan (and I've been on Mindat for many years). Although I fully agree with that you need to see what's happening with flash, it does give advantage in reduced motion blur risk, especially at high mag's. I've seen Stephan is using those 3 of those Zeiss KPL flex arm lights. I have one and I don't really like it in my setup (as well as the output colors of the halogen bulbs, even when shooting raw and doing correct white balance).

My hope is that I can use continuous light most of the time, but in case I need or want to use flash it is nice to have the possibility in silent mode and if that takes an investment of $80, it's well worth it. I have a bunch of speedlites lying around anyway

On a side note: I think it is mainly the diffusor(s) that determine the quality of the light. The flex arm halogen units are designed for microscopes and when used without diffusor give quite harsh lighting so that makes me wonder if there are better (possibly less expensive) options for continuous lighting. Three of those Zeiss units are well over 2000 usd, maybe even over 3000 usd.

 

[jolyonralph]

It's true, there's nothing quite like macro stacking to increase your shutter activations in a hurry

I had the A6000 and now have the A7RII but I haven't really had much success with either of them for macro photography and have always gone back to the 5DSr.

Jolyon

 

[niels123]

It's true, there's nothing quite like macro stacking to increase your shutter activations in a hurry

I had the A6000 and now have the A7RII but I haven't really had much success with either of them for macro photography and have always gone back to the 5DSr.

Jolyon

If I may ask: what's the reason the A7RII is not as suitable for you as the 5Ds R for macro photograpy? Is it for mineral photography or macro photography in the field (e.g. insects)?

 

[niels123]

Flash synchronisation delay can be achieved with Godox X1T-s trigger. C.Fn settings:

C.Fn 00 - set from 0 to 19.9ms in 100us steps. It works. You need a Godox compatible radio receiver, flash of monolight though. Godox receivers (i.e. X1R-S) are very inexpensive.

Today, the Godox X1 Trigger + Receiver arrived. I set the value of C.Fn 00 to 100 (Flash synchronization delay), corresponding to a delay of 10 miliseconds. I tried with my stackshot, but the flash is too early for my Sony a6300 in manual mode (1 second)

Here they mention a max HSS delay of 19.9 ms. The manual only mentions a C.Fn 00 delay of max 10 ms and I can't find anything about HSS delay in the manual. Nevertheless, I don't want to shoot in HSS as it generates much more heat in my flashes.

So I guess it doesn't work? Any ideas to try before I return them?

 

[niels123]

I'm considering to keep them so I can do off-camera high-speed sync with one of my canon speedlites

I have a cheap monolight that I use for model work, I guess the Godox X1 won't be able to use high-speed sync with that one or am I wrong? if so, how can I do that?

 

[LDS]

High-speed sync needs some help from the flash. It needs to output light as long as the shutter slit travels across the sensor. That's done in different ways. Some units can keep the lamp on for a longer time, and the shutter is synced so it fires to get the better output of the lamp (a lamp doesn't turn on and off instantly, it's an asymmetrical bell shaped curve, you want the shutter to fire to use the light around the peak). Others pulse the lamp very quickly. Those different technologies may be given different names like Hypersync and High Speed Sync.

If your monolight has a longer flash duration (and a peak wide enough, usually at full power) you'll need to trigger it slightly before the shutter opens - but I don't know if the Godox can achieve it. It would be tricky anyway, if you need it, better to get a unit and a transmitter already designed for it.

 

[niels123]

High-speed sync needs some help from the flash. It needs to output light as long as the shutter slit travels across the sensor. That's done in different ways. Some units can keep the lamp on for a longer time, and the shutter is synced so it fires to get the better output of the lamp (a lamp doesn't turn on and off instantly, it's an asymmetrical bell shaped curve, you want the shutter to fire to use the light around the peak). Others pulse the lamp very quickly. Those different technologies may be given different names like Hypersync and High Speed Sync.

If your monolight has a longer flash duration (and a peak wide enough, usually at full power) you'll need to trigger it slightly before the shutter opens - but I don't know if the Godox can achieve it. It would be tricky anyway, if you need it, better to get a unit and a transmitter already designed for it.

It would be welcome but for sure not *needed*. 99+% of my studio work is portraits and static body scapes. Currently, I definitely won't spend money on a flash that can do it since they are quite expensive when you want quality as well. My flash has no options to do it whatsoever, only the power can be adjusted. That being said: I don't mind at the moment, I have succesfully used my 600EX off-camera at lower powers and slightly higher ISO's (around 400) to freeze some motion of models in my studio. I think my speedlites will have more than enough power to perform the things I would want to and I don't see myself carrying a large monopack for shoots outdoors. In that case, I usually just bring a single speedlite and flash umbrella.

Nevertheless, the option to have off-camera HSS with my Speedlites (compared to 1/160 limit with my current Cactus V5 triggers) is a big improvement I think. It gives me the option to use flash for portraits in brighter conditions outside without half your image completely overexposed. What do you think?

 

[LDS]

Nevertheless, the option to have off-camera HSS with my Speedlites (compared to 1/160 limit with my current Cactus V5 triggers) is a big improvement I think. It gives me the option to use flash for portraits in brighter conditions outside without half your image completely overexposed. What do you think?

HSS is really useful outdoor (or indoor with a lot of ambient light) when you need shutter speed faster than X-sync. As an alternative indoor to obtain faster exposures to freeze motions, faster than some monolights allow (i.e. my Elinchrom RX4 has a flash duration of 1/800 at full power) it may not work for all subjects, you may need very short flash duration anyway.

If the speedlites work for you the better, whenever you feel the need of HSS with more powerful units better to rely on one designed for it, or you may end in an expensive "hit-and-miss" situation, especially if you do it for a living.

 

[niels123]

Nevertheless, the option to have off-camera HSS with my Speedlites (compared to 1/160 limit with my current Cactus V5 triggers) is a big improvement I think. It gives me the option to use flash for portraits in brighter conditions outside without half your image completely overexposed. What do you think?

HSS is really useful outdoor (or indoor with a lot of ambient light) when you need shutter speed faster than X-sync. As an alternative indoor to obtain faster exposures to freeze motions, faster than some monolights allow (i.e. my Elinchrom RX4 has a flash duration of 1/800 at full power) it may not work for all subjects, you may need very short flash duration anyway.

If the speedlites work for you the better, whenever you feel the need of HSS with more powerful units better to rely on one designed for it, or you may end in an expensive "hit-and-miss" situation, especially if you do it for a living.

I don't do it for a living, model shooting with off-camera flash is just hobby. I do shoot paid assignment though, but I rely on ambient light and fast primes 99+% of the time then. If I would get paid a decent amount for shoots with off-camera flash, I would for sure invest in a high-end monolight.