Digitalrev speculates on D7100 vs. 7D2

[RLPhoto]

The 7DII is going to be an evolution of a near perfect camera.

Yes, one that won't matter!

To many people.

 

[wickidwombat]

oh boy alot of hopes and dreams riding on the 7D2
better stock up on tissues people cause there will be plenty of tears...

 

[AG]

Im still of the opinion that they should just take the 1DX and stick a crop sensor in there instead of a Full Frame and then sell that as a 7D2.

Then what will they complain about? it's too big?

It can be the pinnacle of Crop cameras and at the same time could mean the xxD range actually could get some relevance again, its currently a small jump from Rebel/SL1 to xxD and then a large jump to the current 7D in terms of specs, even given its age.

Hopefully Canon go all out this time.

 

[garyknrd]

as long as we're speculating...

I expect 2014 will be all about moving the MP count. If Canon produces a superior sensor in 2014 I would expect them to figure out a way to hide its ISO and DR capabillties with the increased pixel density (or even other mfg things) so that the 2014 bodies will not steal any revenue from the 5D3 and 1DX. that means we're not likely to see a 7D2 with better IQ or AF than the 5D3 or with a fps approaching the 1DX. We will see high MP bodies that will see alot of tripod use: If Neuro is right one might be a 6D-like body. I'd expect the other to be a 1 series. But in any case I can't imagine 2014 will see any new FF sports or wedding/event bodies.

When the 5D3 and 1DX have run their revenue course, Canon will introduce sensor tweeks and show another "completely new sensor" which will be an incremental improvement over the 2014 bodies. the 5D4 and 1DX mark II will then set new records for medium pixel count, speed, ISO, DR, AF performance etc in 2015 or 2016.

+1, that is pretty much how I see things also. Actually I am putting money back for the 1DX II right now. Was going to get the 1DX, when the next model was announced but think the 1DX II will be a good birding camera for me. I personally do not see a serious threat to the Mark IV that I have now ( as a birder only ). And do not want a 1DX. But the new 2015-2016 1D series FF will probably be to my liking with higher MP count. Wait and see now. And enjoy shooting with what I have.
For me only! There is nothing out there Canon makes I want ( for birding ). So I am in a holding pattern.

 

[Don Haines]

If the 7D MKII will have a crop sensor, I do not understand how the camera will have as good of high ISO performance as the full frame 5D MKIII.

The 5DIII is made on Canon's current CMOS manufacturing process - which is quite ancient and is well overdue for replacement.

The hope is that the 7DII sensor will be manufactured on a new manufacturing process.

If that's the case, the 7DII sensor will likely perform the same (or even better) than the 5DIII sensor. Of course Canon will eventually make FF sensors on the new manufacturing process and FF will again pull ahead in performance.

If that is the case, what do you think happen to current 5D III? You think Canon going to let that happen?

A new technology has to be introduced somewhere. Since sales of lower end cameras far exceed that of higher end cameras, it would make sense that a new technology gets introduced into the lower end cameras first.... like the 6D which has GPS, touchscreen, and a lower light central focus point than the 5D3...

It is almost certain that this new technology will outperform the old process.... by how much remains to be seen... perhaps even approaching the sensitivity of the 5D3. It is also almost certain that this new camera will outperform the 5D3 live-view focus....

What does this mean for the 5D3? Nothing! People who want FF are not going to trade in a 5D3 for a crop camera, just like those who wish a crop camera are not going to go FF.... there is a market for both. What it does mean is that a 5D4 will probably use this new technology and you can expect the 5D4 to be better than the 5D3 like a 7D2 outperforms a 7D.

 

[dlleno]

oh boy alot of hopes and dreams riding on the 7D2
better stock up on tissues people cause there will be plenty of tears...

maybe so. it looks like we can expect a nice feature list, but as for the sensor and native IQ I personally expect only a stop or so of improvement, in native ISO performance. As for fps, I personally don't think Canon would allow the 7D2 to match the 1DX in fps, but 10 is plausible, to be sure.

oh, and for those speculating on the price, Canon did say (if memory serves) that it would be a mid-range body or some similar expression. do the math: half way between rebel and 1DX comes in above the 6D... So it does look like Canon will be pushing the crop envelope.

As for the sensor, lets assume "new process". The 7D2 implimentation will be at the bleeding edge, i.e. technology at its infancy. Sure, a stop of improvement is plausible, over the 7D, perhaps even with an increase in pixel count, but it will still be demonstrably inferior to the 5D3 and 1DX in terms of ISO and noise. Where is the evidence to the contrary? It will be due to mfg or imposed limitations because Canon isn't going to let a crop body outrun a current FF body in the area of DR, noise, and ISO. just an opinion of course. They have 1DX and 5D3 revenue to protect, after all and I don't think these bodies will get refreshed until 2015 at the soonest. I mean I hope a 5D4 comes next year, but that really seems unlikely, as in ridiculously implausible.

So on the "good" side I'd say we can expect the 7D2 to produce slightly better IQ in distance limited situations, compared to a cropped 5D3, due to "more pixels on the duck". This will restore the credibility of the crop body for budget birders and for the 2nd body. It will have an awesome jpg engine. On the "tears" side I think those expecting the 7D2 IQ/Noise/ISO performace to rival that of the 5D3 will be shedding the most tears. initially, the press release will make it sound that good, but when folks discover that the improvement lies in the jpg engine and not native RAW performance, they will be dissapointed.

on edit: what isn't included in the avove is market pressure to lead in the crop space. I don't know how that will influence the 7D2, but it will be really fascinating to see if we have a show much like the 5D3/D800

 

[Don Haines]

I thought we could discuss the pros and cons of our canon cameras.
If a chart explains how the sensor development has been the past 10 years , is that not interesting to know?
We have different views on what might be interesting or not and both are we using Canon.

If the chart the only factor that Canon develops to? Is DxO the absolute truth in IQ and what sells in the marketplace? Both Canon and Nikon make trade offs when developing a new camera (or camera line). They have their reasons, which us mare (spelling?) mortals will never know. If you great to part of their marketing team, but I don't foresee that in my future.

Plus, there is a lot more to a camera than just a sensor. There is the glass, the user interface and controls layout, the AF system, etc etc etc. It is very misleading to focus on just one aspect when it is the interactions of complex systems and differing needs that makes a camera good or bad for each user.

 

[Dylan777]

If the 7D MKII will have a crop sensor, I do not understand how the camera will have as good of high ISO performance as the full frame 5D MKIII.

The 5DIII is made on Canon's current CMOS manufacturing process - which is quite ancient and is well overdue for replacement.

The hope is that the 7DII sensor will be manufactured on a new manufacturing process.

If that's the case, the 7DII sensor will likely perform the same (or even better) than the 5DIII sensor. Of course Canon will eventually make FF sensors on the new manufacturing process and FF will again pull ahead in performance.

If that is the case, what do you think happen to current 5D III? You think Canon going to let that happen?

A new technology has to be introduced somewhere. Since sales of lower end cameras far exceed that of higher end cameras, it would make sense that a new technology gets introduced into the lower end cameras first.... like the 6D which has GPS, touchscreen, and a lower light central focus point than the 5D3...

It is almost certain that this new technology will outperform the old process.... by how much remains to be seen... perhaps even approaching the sensitivity of the 5D3. It is also almost certain that this new camera will outperform the 5D3 live-view focus....

What does this mean for the 5D3? Nothing! People who want FF are not going to trade in a 5D3 for a crop camera, just like those who wish a crop camera are not going to go FF.... there is a market for both. What it does mean is that a 5D4 will probably use this new technology and you can expect the 5D4 to be better than the 5D3 like a 7D2 outperforms a 7D.

Keep in mind 7D was designed for speed, not so much high ISO. I can see 7D II might have 61pts AF like 5D III and an increase in frame rate(maybe 10-fps). BUT NOT IN HIGH ISO or LOW LIGHT like 5D III, regardless what the new sensor might be.

Canon will not put 7D II in near 5D III in term of high ISO/LOW LIGHT. 5D III is only 1yr old plus, it still have another 3-4yrs more before we seeing any rumors 5D 4.

Keep in mind, the original debate was high ISO - not DR or others features etc....

 

[x-vision]

What does this mean for the 5D3? Nothing! People who want FF are not going to trade in a 5D3 for a crop camera ....

Exactly.

Also, despite some of the rumors here, I don't think the 7DII will get the 61-point AF system of the 5D3/1DX.
So, the AF system will be another differentiation from the 5DIII.

Btw, for the 7DII AF system I'm expecting either a beefed-up version of the current 19-point AF (e.g. with better sensitivity to low light) or a maybe new AF system, which would still be a step below Canon's pro AF system.

But we are definitely not getting Canon's pro AF system in a $2K camera. That's for sure.
You know Canon 8).

 

[x-vision]

Keep in mind 7D was designed for speed, not so much high ISO. I can see 7D II might have 61pts AF like 5D III and an increase in frame rate(maybe 10-fps). BUT NOT IN HIGH ISO or LOW LIGHT like 5D III, regardless what the new sensor might be.

Just the opposite, IMO.
It's much more likely that we'll see a big step up in image quality than a big step in features.
See my previous post.

Canon will not put 7D II in near 5D III in term of high ISO/LOW LIGHT. 5D III is only 1yr old plus, it still have another 3-4yrs more before we seeing any rumors 5D 4.

I disagree.

The 5DIII needs to differentiate itself much better from both the 6D and the 7DII.
And the only way it can do that is by getting a high-quality ~30MP sensor.

So, I'm actually expecting that the 5DIII will get a replacement sooner than many expect.
Maybe as early as the spring of 2015.

 

[Dylan777]

Keep in mind 7D was designed for speed, not so much high ISO. I can see 7D II might have 61pts AF like 5D III and an increase in frame rate(maybe 10-fps). BUT NOT IN HIGH ISO or LOW LIGHT like 5D III, regardless what the new sensor might be.

Just the opposite, IMO.
It's much more likely that we'll see a big step up in image quality than a big step in features.
See my previous post.

Canon will not put 7D II in near 5D III in term of high ISO/LOW LIGHT. 5D III is only 1yr old plus, it still have another 3-4yrs more before we seeing any rumors 5D 4.

I disagree.

The 5DIII needs to differentiate itself much better from both the 6D and the 7DII.
And the only way it can do that is by getting a high-quality ~30MP sensor.

So, I'm actually expecting that the 5DIII will get a replacement sooner than many expect.
Maybe as early as the spring of 2015.

I'll put my 25cents on the line that 7D II will not out perform 5D III in high ISO/low light.

Even Fuji & Sony are not capable to have their crop sensor out performs 5D III FF sensor yet.

 

[x-vision]

I'll put my 25cents on the line that 7D II will not out perform 5D III in high ISO/low light.

OK, outperforming might be a stretch. But being quite close is not unrealistic ... at all.

If you compare Nikon's D7100 with the 5DII (not III) on DxO, you will see that they are very close in every measurement.
The 7DII needs to be only slightly better than the D7100 and it will be in 5DII territory wrt image quality - which in turn is quite close to the 5DIII.

And honestly, if the 7DII is not at least slightly better than the D7100 in image quality, Canon shouldn't bother with an update, thank you very much 8).

 

[ishdakuteb]

I'll put my 25cents on the line that 7D II will not out perform 5D III in high ISO/low light.

OK, outperforming might be a stretch. But being quite close is not unrealistic ... at all.

If you compare Nikon's D7100 with the 5DII (not III) on DxO, you will see that they are very close in every measurement.
The 7DII needs to be only slightly better than the D7100 and it will be in 5DII territory wrt image quality - which in turn is quite close to the 5DIII.

And honestly, if the 7DII is not at least slightly better than the D7100 in image quality, Canon shouldn't bother with an update, thank you very much 8).

according to what i have known, iso improvement only about a stop or less on every single time new canon release a new model (i am talking about raw file, not jpeg file)

 

[dlleno]

I'll put my 25cents on the line that 7D II will not out perform 5D III in high ISO/low light.

OK, outperforming might be a stretch. But being quite close is not unrealistic ... at all.

If you compare Nikon's D7100 with the 5DII (not III) on DxO, you will see that they are very close in every measurement.
The 7DII needs to be only slightly better than the D7100 and it will be in 5DII territory wrt image quality - which in turn is quite close to the 5DIII.

And honestly, if the 7DII is not at least slightly better than the D7100 in image quality, Canon shouldn't bother with an update, thank you very much 8).

according to what i have known, iso improvement only about a stop or less on every single time new canon release a new model (i am talking about raw file, not jpeg file)

yes; but past peformance is no guarentee of future results as they say. I think the reason folks are hoping for more than one stop is due to the Allure of Canon's "new mfg process" and the assumption that this will pace or even eclipse the competition in sensor technology. This leads to a fair amount of salivating that the 7D2 will be so good that it will approach or even outrun the 5D3 IQ, leading to further salivating that the 5D4 will come soon after the 7D2

 

[Loswr]

If Canon shall compete they must increase the QE up to Sony ,Toshibas level and bring down the read out noise, nothing you do easily with Canon current sensor architecture.

Must they? If you mean, compete in terms of sensor performance, certainly. But as has been stated many times, Canon and Nikon sell cameras, not naked sensors. The D7000 has a better sensor than the 7D, but the 7D sold rings around the D7000. I don't expect the D7100 vs. 7DII story to be any different.

 

[Loswr]

aha , you are talking sales, and Im talking about QE , be in front of research, colors, DR, noise, etc , you have all parameters at DXO sensor ranking. If you are tourist shooting you can buy a good compact camera, why bother about a SLR at all ?.
Toyota sales most cars in the world, Im not driving a Toyota but many are.I think there are better cars
How about you?

No, I'm talking cameras. Shutter lag, AF performance, frame rate...things that help make sure the image you want the sensor to capture is the one the sensor actually captures. A shot with less noise and more DR that's slightly OOF and a fraction of a second after the peak of action is a throwaway. It still baffles me that people fail to understand that there's more to capturing a moment than the sensor inside the camera.

 

[3kramd5]

A shot with less noise and more DR that's slightly OOF and a fraction of a second after the peak of action is a throwaway [compared to one with more noise, less DR, proper focus and timed correctly]

Absolutely.

When I take multiple images of the same subject with more-or-less the same framing (these days most often my son), I look first to focus and exposure. If all of them are equal, I'd then look to noise. With my moving target, I'd rather shoot ISO320 1/400 than ISO160 1/200, that's for sure.

 

[sanj]

Keep in mind 7D was designed for speed, not so much high ISO. I can see 7D II might have 61pts AF like 5D III and an increase in frame rate(maybe 10-fps). BUT NOT IN HIGH ISO or LOW LIGHT like 5D III, regardless what the new sensor might be.

Just the opposite, IMO.
It's much more likely that we'll see a big step up in image quality than a big step in features.
See my previous post.

Canon will not put 7D II in near 5D III in term of high ISO/LOW LIGHT. 5D III is only 1yr old plus, it still have another 3-4yrs more before we seeing any rumors 5D 4.

I disagree.

The 5DIII needs to differentiate itself much better from both the 6D and the 7DII.
And the only way it can do that is by getting a high-quality ~30MP sensor.

So, I'm actually expecting that the 5DIII will get a replacement sooner than many expect.
Maybe as early as the spring of 2015.

I'll put my 25cents on the line that 7D II will not out perform 5D III in high ISO/low light.

Even Fuji & Sony are not capable to have their crop sensor out performs 5D III FF sensor yet.

Absolutely. Obviously. Size matters!

 

[K-amps]

If the 7D MKII will have a crop sensor, I do not understand how the camera will have as good of high ISO performance as the full frame 5D MKIII.

Does anyone think the speculation of the 7D MKII high ISO performance is based on the in camera jpeg processing, or are they actually talking about the RAW files?

Thanks

That will never happen. WHY? - You can't hold 1 gallon of water in 1/2 gallon bucket.

Yeah you don't.....

but you can process the first 1/2 and re-fill another half for one whole gallon.

HINT: Cats eyes... ;D

 

[RMC33]

Pro body style 7D, 12 volt battery (faster lens drive), 50-55 point AF, ISO on par with 5d3/1Dx (1 stop less would be good on par and Ill buy one the day it comes out), C-FN similar to the 1Dx, weather sealing similar to the 1Dx and dual CF. Start the price at $3500-4000 and it will sell. If you can't afford it or think "Oh thats too expensive" then don't buy it and wait, as we have seen over the last few generations of cameras the price drops quickly.

I know pro sports shooters who still use the 7D and 1DIV over the 1Dx due to the crop factor. Honestly comparing the 7D to the 6D is apples and oranges, one is intended for action while the other is geared more towards wedding photographers and people getting into studio or making the jump from APS-C to FF.

And to answer the question, how do you fit a gallon into a half gallon bucket? Pressurize it.