DPReview reviews the D810... two years after release

3kramd5 said:
Don Haines said:
AvTvM said:
pierlux said:
3kramd5 said:
pierlux said:
I'm not familiar with mirrorless, but... I suppose a twitching iris should be there in any case, shouldn't it?

As I recall, he wants something akin to a liquid crystal which electronically blacks out part of the iris rather than mechanical blades

Ah, ok. But such a thing would greatly deteriorate IQ, unless alien technology is employed.

Hopefully no. It will still take some time until we get it in our cameras, but the technology is there already. There will be a light loss due to the material not being 100% transparent in the "open" state, but hopefully we will eventually get it with very high transparency, no color cast and no distortions - optically as neutral as good glass today.
I also remember being told that digital cameras will never be as good as film...... and that nobody is going to use their phone to take pictures.....

http://www.smarttint.com/

I imagine that with a little work, something like that could be made optics-level quality, or at least be close enough that signal amplification can overcome whatever loss the glass induces. Color cast is easily treated with calibrated workflow.

If it could be made truly opaque (which would actually be a larger concern to me than its transparency), perhaps diffraction would become a non-issue (since there wouldn't be a physical opening the light is passing through, but rather a transparent portion of an otherwise opaque lens).
I also don't think that the problem to be overcome is how much light it lets through...... after all, our camera sensors only convert 70% or so of the photons to electrons so next to that 30% of signal lost, one or two percent lost here is peanuts.....

The question is how much light can it block?
 
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Don Haines said:
If it could be made truly opaque (which would actually be a larger concern to me than its transparency), perhaps diffraction would become a non-issue (since there wouldn't be a physical opening the light is passing through, but rather a transparent portion of an otherwise opaque lens).
I don't think that the problem to be overcome is how much light it lets through...... after all, our camera sensors only convert 70% or so of the photons to electrons so next to that 30% of signal lost, one or two percent lost here is peanuts.....

The question is how much light can it block?

Then we agree :)
 
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bwud said:
Cool stuff. What about focusing a lens with no moving parts? Just rely on plenoptics and interpolate in post?

in 10 years: yes, plenoptics/light field.

Until then ... well, I prefer linear/steppers motors over those old helicoids. Actually I want "AF-only" lenses without focus rings on them. Hardly ever used manual focus since i got my first AF camera back in 1987.

Zooming I would not mind either by wire ... with control on camera body, no ring on lens ... but only if implemented "really right". Has not been done properly on any camera so far.
 
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3kramd5 said:
Don Haines said:
If it could be made truly opaque (which would actually be a larger concern to me than its transparency), perhaps diffraction would become a non-issue (since there wouldn't be a physical opening the light is passing through, but rather a transparent portion of an otherwise opaque lens).
I don't think that the problem to be overcome is how much light it lets through...... after all, our camera sensors only convert 70% or so of the photons to electrons so next to that 30% of signal lost, one or two percent lost here is peanuts.....

The question is how much light can it block?

Then we agree :)
Sorry, I typed my response on a phone and didn't realize that I missed a word.... I edited my post...

Yes, I ALSO ...........

Complete agreement with you.....

A saw a demo of electronic light blocking for windows.... It seemed quite transparent in the pass mode but the block mode was certainly not 100 percent. But then again, the technology is in it's infancy and the purpose was to dim the lighting in the room. Who knows what could be done if properly designed towards a goal of 100 percent blockage.....
 
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I don't think I'd want a plenoptic camera as my main rig; I'd prefer all the sensor contribute to the entirety of the image, rather than breaking up a single sensor into a fine grid (like the lytro implementation) or having multiple small sensors (like the Light implementation, although it having them brings about unique exposure options).


Don Haines said:
3kramd5 said:
Don Haines said:
If it could be made truly opaque (which would actually be a larger concern to me than its transparency), perhaps diffraction would become a non-issue (since there wouldn't be a physical opening the light is passing through, but rather a transparent portion of an otherwise opaque lens).
I don't think that the problem to be overcome is how much light it lets through...... after all, our camera sensors only convert 70% or so of the photons to electrons so next to that 30% of signal lost, one or two percent lost here is peanuts.....

The question is how much light can it block?

Then we agree :)
Sorry, I typed my response on a phone and didn't realize that I missed a word.... I edited my post...

Yes, I ALSO ...........

Complete agreement with you.....

A saw a demo of electronic light blocking for windows.... It seemed quite transparent in the pass mode but the block mode was certainly not 100 percent. But then again, the technology is in it's infancy and the purpose was to dim the lighting in the room. Who knows what could be done if properly designed towards a goal of 100 percent blockage.....

Yah, using them for optics would involve different priorities for sure.

It doesn't seem entirely unlikely we'll see electronically darkened glass in lenses. At the very least you could have significantly rounder apertures, or even custom shapes for those who like that kind of thing.
 
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3kramd5 said:
...
It doesn't seem entirely unlikely we'll see electronically darkened glass in lenses. At the very least you could have significantly rounder apertures, or even custom shapes for those who like that kind of thing.

OMG! I sense Canon's first implementation might be a pink, totally dumbed-down EOS M with a selection of heart * star * diamond * cat * dog ... shaped aperture .. "the future of photography"! :P ;D
 
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AvTvM said:
3kramd5 said:
...
It doesn't seem entirely unlikely we'll see electronically darkened glass in lenses. At the very least you could have significantly rounder apertures, or even custom shapes for those who like that kind of thing.

OMG! I sense Canon's first implementation might be a pink, totally dumbed-down EOS M with a selection of heart * star * diamond * cat * dog ... shaped aperture .. "the future of photography"! :P ;D

A part of my R&D job is screening customer suggestions sent to our company. We did receive a serious request for custom shaped/colored monitors (many more than your list) that they were sure would open up new markets for our products. Black rectangle frames are just too boring.
 
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dcm said:
A part of my R&D job is screening customer suggestions sent to our company. We did receive a serious request for custom shaped/colored monitors (many more than your list) that they were sure would open up new markets for our products. Black rectangle frames are just too boring.
lol. :D
That would be a job for me ... I'd have great fun! ;D
 
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OK,

When shooting ISO 64 or 100 - for landscapes or high contrast scenes, the D810 is the king of all DSLR. I give it to them. The DR is truly massive and impressive. Shadow lifting is exceptionally super clean compared to the competition.

However, the tones suck and are flat. For such scenes, when possible (which is most of the time), I achieve much superior results using HDR. Nothing beats feeding the sensor the light it needs to give those great tones, colors and sharpness. The premise here is that I reject the notion of even having to do all this shadow lifting.

The 5DS with its higher resolution, sharper Canon glass, better color and HDR technique produce superior results. The D810 is the winner for capturing high contrast scenes with moving subjects where HDR is not possible. There, shadow and highlight recovery makes for a better image, even if those areas are flatter than one would hope for. It's a forced compromise. For static shots, that flatness just isn't optimal. There's greater image potential and the high DR shadow lifts and highlight recovery of the D810 doesn't cut it. It's ok for common folk who don't know the difference, but for those who scrutinize image quality - not appealing.

DPReview goes a little too far with the whole Nikon under exposure metering. To say that to go ahead and underexpose everything to preserve highlights, and lift all the darkness in post. That the metering system enables this kind of practice.


Uhhgg...


First of all, this might be fine for some tech geek who shoots a handful of shots here and there. But that to me is not professional in the slightest. Having to exposure correct hundreds of photos (perhaps thousands if a wedding) in post is NOT my idea of good process. That is a serious time killer, and time is money. It would have some merit IF the results were great and could lead to a return. But they don't. It is more efficient and the results are superior to have quality lighting. I've seen these bozo wedding "pros" show up at events with their Nikons, fast primes ready to do their "natural light photography" ...every time, at least to my eyes and tastes, the results look like vomit. The best work I've seen is done by those with quality portable lighting systems. It is so cliche. It's the same formula, Nikon + fast primes and no lighting - ready for "natural light" photojournalistic wedding style. AKA, crapola. My advice to couples is to not hire Nikon shooters who don't bring lighting gear and carry lots of primes.


Going +2 to +3 on most photos? Terrible practice and workflow. I spend enough time, with an already better color reproducing Canon system, doing advanced, yet subtle, color corrections in post - that to add in all these crazy exposure adjustments, shadow boosts and other nonsense. Because to help make these flat shadow and highlight areas come back to life a little bit more, requires even more work in post to enhance the color, saturation and contrast in the most realistic way possible and to do so selectively in those regions. Too much work, too much time. All in an futile effort.

Like I said, no problem for the hobbyist. He has all week or more to sit down in post to tweak a few images. Those trying to make money at this are not having that. Just not possible.

To make a great photo, regardless of sensor - you must have a good exposure. No getting around that. Sure, the newer technologies do offer up more latitude. But that doesn't mean you have to use ALL of it. Just because it can bring 5 stops into the correct exposure doesn't mean you have to. What it means to me is, if it can cleanly move over 3-5 stops, then a reasonable adjustment of 0.5 to 1 stop will be that much better than previous generation sensors. Does that make sense? They're so good now, that you don't pay any noticeable penalty for a reasonable exposure correction or shadow/highlight recovery. 3-5 stops has a penalty, even at ISO 64 with the almighty Exmor with nearly 14 stops of DR. The strength of that sensor is you can do small adjustments with zero detectable penalty. Key word, small. Not work the sliders to create bizarre looking images with flat areas void of quality tonality.

All of the DR advantage is gone by ISO 800. ISO 800 these days is NOT a high ISO by far. For events, there's no DR advantage, but you do take a noise penalty vs. other cameras. This to me, means the D810 is not the all-around camera some claim it to be. Also, at least for me, low-light AF accuracy and speed is critical. I've shot in low light situations where I had to put down the 5D3 and go to the 6D to lock focus faster. D810 not cutting it at all in this area. Making it useless for entire segments of semi-pro DSLR users. There's also the gigantic file sizes.


It doesn't make sense to me...the D810 is a great landscape machine, but when you're doing landscape - you're already committed to a lot of post processing, why bother with all the exposure tweaking and just move to HDR and get better results? At which point, I'd rather have Canon color and tones, and the better Canon glass selection. I've created noise-free images using HDR techniques that have amazing IQ. There's no Exmor, high DR shadow lift in the universe that can yield better results.

For events, it is not a good camera. Especially with the lack of custom modes. Canon's C1,2,3 modes are almost priceless. Being able to make a 1 click adjustment and have the entire camera state, all settings change is extremely useful. Especially for events. Nothing is faster for transitioning the camera to take optimal pictures for changes in scenario, whether it be outdoor vs. indoor, or stills vs action. Good luck fiddling with all the dials on the Nikon to pull off the best results in diverse event. Not happening. Instead, you'll end up with some marginal shots that will need a lot of POST processing.

Hence, the "go to black and white" crutch. AKA, the shot is needed, but was botched - so make it B&W. Client might consider it artistic license and style. Problem solved LOL.


Nikon glass also has some heinous lateral fringing of the purple kind. Not all their glass but a lot of key glass does. The kind of key glass one uses for headshots or portraits where enlarged prints could be scrutinized. The 85mm comes to mind. Sure, there are corrections for this. But why have to? Corrections come at an IQ penalty. Canon isn't perfect, but they ensure that the needs of real pros are met. Pros often value things quite differently than tech-geeks.

I'm not a pro, but I've shot some events and worked with many pros. Some who are great, others who are charlatans.

More DR is always welcome, but there's just too many pros on the Canon side that outweigh it. The D810 is a good camera. It's just not an all around camera, nor is it a serious pro camera. It's a great hobbyist camera.
 
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And what's up with Nikon's pricing. These guys never give the kind of rebates and sales that Canon does. This camera is 2 years old, and still priced at $2,800? No wonder Nikon sales are down. That's a lot of money for what the D810 is.

If this camera was priced at $2K even or maybe $2,200, it would be a good value. Nearly $3k given it's shortcomings...uh no.

The D750 is a far better camera in many regards. It too isn't perfect, but very capable and priced right.
 
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K said:
And what's up with Nikon's pricing. These guys never give the kind of rebates and sales that Canon does. This camera is 2 years old, and still priced at $2,800? No wonder Nikon sales are down. That's a lot of money for what the D810 is.

If this camera was priced at $2K even or maybe $2,200, it would be a good value. Nearly $3k given it's shortcomings...uh no.

The D750 is a far better camera in many regards. It too isn't perfect, but very capable and priced right.

In 2014, Nikon released quite possibly the finest sensor ever offered in an SLR. It had high resolution, did very well in low light, and had the dynamic range and ISO <100 the landscape crowd craved.

The D810 camera (on aggregate) was far from perfect, but the sensor was effectively unassailable. Canon could offer something with higher resolution, but they couldn't get the high ISO noise levels in the same neighborhood. Canon could offer a better low light sensor, but not at that 36 MP resolution. That D810 sensor was simply a marvel.

Guess what? It still is. Other than the A7R II, which makes the D810's issues seems tiny in comparison, the sensor hasn't been outdone yet, some two years after deployment. That is why the price has remained so high.

- A
 
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K said:
OK,

When shooting ISO 64 or 100 - for landscapes or high contrast scenes, the D810 is the king of all DSLR. I give it to them. The DR is truly massive and impressive. Shadow lifting is exceptionally super clean compared to the competition.

However, the tones suck and are flat. For such scenes, when possible (which is most of the time), I achieve much superior results using HDR.

Is that the camera or the equipment?

Camera sensors may be getting ever wider DR but computer screens and printer paper have not moved much from what I can tell . if the images are flat is that the camera or the user who has not processed the images to best effect? My guess is the latter.
Have you actually used Nikon D810? Your post reads like you haven't and are gong by other peoples' output.

Nikon + fast primes and no lighting - ready for "natural light" photojournalistic wedding style. AKA, crapola.
To be honest, that sounds like 'crapola' to me. You can screw up the output from a high-DR camera just like you can screw up HDR (and I have seen some atrocious HDR).


the D810 is a great landscape machine, but when you're doing landscape - you're already committed to a lot of post processing,
That sounds like bull. Are you saying you would shoot weddings/events with little to no post-processing?


nor is it a serious pro camera. It's a great hobbyist camera.
Hmmm.
 
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3kramd5 said:
K said:
My advice to couples is to not hire Nikon shooters who don't bring lighting gear and carry lots of primes.

You really advise couples about which wedding photographer to hire based on brand?

If that's how you want to misread it, then sure.


I advise friends and couples to be married to avoid the "natural light" wedding photographers. Of which, are comprised by about 99% Nikon shooters in my experience. Entry level "pros" ..the types that like to use the term photojournalistic too much, and who deliver too many B&W photos to clients because of the bad color and tone of botched exposures...I have yet to come across a natural light Canon equipped wedding photographer. It isn't the lack of primes, after all, Canon has the 1.2's ...and a very nice 35mm 1.4 II. Maybe it is the lack of an Exmor? Or better yet, they tend to not be the lowest budget entrepreneurs avoiding having to buy lighting or, worse *gasp* ...LEARN to use lighting. I don't see any novices running Canon with a nifty fifty and no lighting trying to shoot weddings. Can't say the same about Nikon...
 
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K said:
3kramd5 said:
K said:
My advice to couples is to not hire Nikon shooters who don't bring lighting gear and carry lots of primes.

You really advise couples about which wedding photographer to hire based on brand?

If that's how you want to misread it, then sure.

that's not how I want to read it, it's how you wrote it. Strike the word Nikon and you have a less strange piece of advise.

I guess it is all well and good to suggest people not hire a photographer who doesn't come equipped, but to me the only piece of advise worthwhile is to look at the totality of a photographer's work and see whether you like their style. How they achieve it is immaterial.
 
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3kramd5 said:
K said:
3kramd5 said:
K said:
My advice to couples is to not hire Nikon shooters who don't bring lighting gear and carry lots of primes.

You really advise couples about which wedding photographer to hire based on brand?

If that's how you want to misread it, then sure.

that's not how I want to read it, it's how you wrote it. Strike the word Nikon and you have a less strange piece of advise.

I guess it is all well and good to suggest people not hire a photographer who doesn't come equipped, but to me the only piece of advise worthwhile is to look at the totality of a photographer's work and see whether you like their style. How they achieve it is immaterial.

I don't think I'll ever hire a wedding photographer who shoots Nikon. Or Canon. Missed the chance for my own wedding, back then a digital SLR was Kodak sticking sensors in Nikon film SLRs, and our wedding was shot on a pair of Mamiya 645s.

By the time my kids get married, Nikon and Canon will have long gone bankrupt and only Sony MILCs will exist...at least according to some on CR. ::)
 
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neuroanatomist said:
...
By the time my kids get married, Nikon and Canon will have long gone bankrupt ...

unless they have moved to making hi-rez hi-ISO surveillance cameras which will be so ubiquitous, that you don't need to hire any image makers any longer to get a wedding fully covered on stills and moving images from every possible angle. :o ;D
 
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AvTvM said:
neuroanatomist said:
...
By the time my kids get married, Nikon and Canon will have long gone bankrupt ...

unless they have moved to making hi-rez hi-ISO surveillance cameras which will be so ubiquitous, that you don't need to hire any image makers any longer to get a wedding fully covered on stills and moving images from every possible angle. :o ;D

Might be true now, only us civilians can't access the footage. :o :P
 
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