Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D

[friedmud]

I posted last week to get advice on getting a 7D now... and got some truly wonderful responses about how I should take the plunge... and I did.

I got it last night and took some photos around town today. While I was shooting around town I thought the PQ looked GREAT... I could definitely see improvements in the evaluative metering over my XSi... and shouldn't even have to mention the HUGE improvements to AF over my XSi.

Everything was going great... until I got home and loaded up those photos in LR3... and saw a ridiculous amount of high frequency noise ALL over the place... even when shooting at ISO 100-200!

I couldn't believe it so I snatched my camera and went out into my backyard and front yard and shot some more photos of houses around me at ISO 100 and was very careful to expose everything correctly and get perfect focus... brought the camera back inside... and CRAZY NOISE persists!

I am mainly a landscape photographer... so _low_ ISO performance is hugely important to me. Before I bought the camera I read a ton of reviews that were positive... but of course they were all checking the _high_ ISO performance. Now that I found a "problem" I started searching around and have found TONS of people that are disappointed with the low ISO performance of the 7D.

What to do?

I am going on a trip into the mountains (no hiking, just driving) this weekend, so I'm definitely going to take along the 7D and "do my thing"... and if I come back with noise all over the place I think I'm going to have to return this body. That's a damn shame because I love everything else about it.

I _do_ think the noise is "livable"... but I feel like I shouldn't have to "live with it" for $1,500. Also, I buy cameras for the long haul and would be extremely disappointed every time I came back from a trip with noise all over my low ISO photos.

I feel like I've been cheated of the joy that is rightfully mine by Canon...

Any advice here?

Derek

 

[TonyY]

Totally agree, a $600 sony nex 5n can beat canon 7D in terms of image quality, check out the dpreview "Studio shot comparison: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/studiocompare.asp#baseDir=%2Freviews_data&cameraDataSubdir=boxshot&indexFileName=boxshotindex.xml&presetsFileName=boxshotpresets.xml&showDescriptions=false&headerTitle=Studio%20scene&headerSubTitle=Standard%20studio%20scene%20comparison&masterCamera=sony_nex5n&masterSample=dsc00790&slotsCount=4&slot0Camera=sony_nex5n&slot0Sample=dsc00790&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=canon_eos7d&slot1Sample=canon7d_nrstand_iso3200&x=-0.9485456681437512&y=-1.5736754905560102

If I haven't had 5DII with 8 L lenses and full frame, I would jump to sony nex 5n or 7 with legacy lenses. Actually I am think to get a nex 7 as backup main body since 5DII is collecting dust.

 

[friedmud]

A little more information.

I shoot RAW only... and mostly shot in Av mode all day today (with suitably sized apertures for "urban" landscape's DoF needs... ie around 7-12).

The noise is anywhere a "smooth" surface is. Applying any amount of sharpening brings it right out (masking helps, but the noise then still hangs out in the "fringes" of solid surfaces). Applying NR to balance... I have to apply too much to get the noise out and end up losing detail (what is the point of all of those MPs if we have to smear everything around with NR?)

It is true that I am somewhat pixel peeping here... the noise doesn't become noticeable until about 2x... but it's not like I'm view at 1:1 or something. Sure my XSi has some noise... but at ISO 100 or 200 I have never had to apply NR to get acceptable medium prints (like 13"x19"). I don't believe I could print these 7D images at even 13x19!

 

[friedmud]

Ok a little more info. I thought maybe LR3 couldn't handle the 7D very well so I loaded up DPP... and got the same (if not worse) results...

 

[dr croubie]

Any chance of some samples of what you mean?
I've got a 7D and have seen no problems with anything thus far (but then that's all relative as to how your last camera performed).
Have you tried RAW-converting in DPP? Just for a test, set it to 'standard' picture style, sharpness 3, noise reduction 1/0, i've never had a problem with mine for that on iso100, and i've shot birds at 800/1600iso (to get shutter up over 1/500s) with acceptable quality after a bit of DPP's NR.

 

[pwp]

Everything was going great... until I got home and loaded up those photos in LR3... and saw a ridiculous amount of high frequency noise ALL over the place... even when shooting at ISO 100-200!
Any advice here?
Derek

Derek, this is not consistent with most 7D shooters experience.

Could you post an image that describes what you are seeing, preferably a RAW file, or at the very least a file that is completely uncorrected. This will enable people to assist you and offer relevant viewpoints/advice.

Paul Wright

 

[jgroepper]

Yeah I am really satisfied with mine too, great low noise performance over my 30D. I was amazed a how little noise was present at iso1600. I am not afraid to shoot at iso > 1000. With my 30D I noticed noise issues at iso 400. I do use noise reduction in LR3 but the shots still retain their sharpness.

 

[friedmud]

Thanks for the replies guys... I'd love to get this sorted!

Firstly: I'm not bothered by the high ISO performance (>400). As most of the reviews mention... I too think it is great in that area. I'm specifically troubled by _low_ ISO performance (100-200).

It does sound like I might be doing something wrong.

I'm going to try to attach a downrezed (to 5MP) photo (so that it fits in the attachment limit). Even at that rez you should be able to see what I'm talking about. This photo just has a small amount of sharpening and nothing more... which is what I would normally do for an ISO 200 photo...

Hmmm... it won't let me attach it. Give me a minute to find a place to put these.

 

[wickidwombat]

maybe post 2 sampels one from the 7D and the same thing from the xsi

 

[wickidwombat]

better idea than downres take screen shots from LR and post those

 

[friedmud]

Ok - here's one that has just received minor sharpening (what I would do for any shot coming in at ISO 200)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6480510009_df4a26af47_o.jpg

And here's another that I've tried my hardest to "fixup" with sharpening and NR:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6480518429_3cd975c2a1_o.jpg

 

[friedmud]

Unfortunately, I can't compare directly to my XSi right now because it still hasn't made it back from the shop ;-)

 

[wickidwombat]

hmm i see what you mean, definately seems noisier than you would expect at iso 200, seems there is quite a bit of CA in there too you havent got ISO In auto or anything silly like that?

 

[friedmud]

hmm i see what you mean, definately seems noisier than you would expect at iso 200, seems there is quite a bit of CA in there too you havent got ISO In auto or anything silly like that?

Nope - ISO was set by me. Both that I posted are ISO 200.

First is f/11 second is f/9.

These are with my Canon 17-55 f/2.8 IS.

 

[friedmud]

Both shot in Av mode.

 

[wickidwombat]

did you buy it from a shop? perhaps you can take it back and ask to try another unti side by side. Definately seems off by alot, looks more like ISO1600 on my 1Dmk3 than ISO 200 I just checked a shot from last night at ISO 800 and its considerably less noisy especially in the shadows

 

[EYEONE]

While I've always been happy with the 7D's high ISO performance, I always thought that the low ISO performance was a bit more noisy than it should be. But I only notice it when I pixel peep so I don't worry about it. I'm not sure that it was all that unusual or worse than my old XSi.

The second shot you posted looks ok to me, but that first one does look pretty noisy. For ISO 200 anyway.

 

[akiskev]

I think that your 17-55 may be slightly decentered. Right side is kinda soft in both pictures.

I suggest you not to worry so much about the noise levels. What I'm seeing (in terms of noise levels) is totally acceptable even for large prints.

 

[friedmud]

I think that your 17-55 may be slightly decentered. Right side is kinda soft in both pictures.

I suggest you not to worry so much about the noise levels. What I'm seeing (in terms of noise levels) is totally acceptable even for large prints.

You're definitely right about the right side of my 17-55. For whatever reason it only really shows at certain apertures and focal length combos. I've kind of learned to deal with it over the years. I wouldn't mind sending it in sometime... I was always just a bit worried that it would come back _worse_ in some other way ;-)

I do get quite good photos out of it though (note that I didn't try very hard to actually get nice looking photos here... these were really just noise tests). You can see some of them here: http://500px.com/friedmud

Do you think it would be worth sending it in? Now that I have a more demanding body I might be time to do just that.

You think the noise is ok? It might be. I'll take photos with it this weekend and then fixup a few a do some larger prints and post some back to this thread. I guess I'm just really bothered by my inability to use sharpening with these photos from the new body. As a primarily landscape photographer I lean heavily on sharpening to give me crisp looking scenery. Maybe I just need to change my practices...

 

[jrista]

I posted last week to get advice on getting a 7D now... and got some truly wonderful responses about how I should take the plunge... and I did.

I got it last night and took some photos around town today. While I was shooting around town I thought the PQ looked GREAT... I could definitely see improvements in the evaluative metering over my XSi... and shouldn't even have to mention the HUGE improvements to AF over my XSi.

Everything was going great... until I got home and loaded up those photos in LR3... and saw a ridiculous amount of high frequency noise ALL over the place... even when shooting at ISO 100-200!

Hi Derek,

I think I may have been one of the ones who recommended the camera to you last week. I'm a little surprised you're having such a problem. While I do think the 7D is a tad noisy at low ISO, I found for myself that ISO 160 seems to be great. I'm not exactly sure what Canon says about the 7D, and whether it differs from their other cameras in any way...however I've heard two things about it:

1. The 7D, unlike other canon DSLR's, has ISO 80 as a base, making ISO 160, 320, 640, 1250, and 2500 ideal.
2. The 7D IS a bit noisier than their other DSLR's (not surprising given its pixel density), and ISO 160 a -1/3 stop pull from ISO 200, resulting in a slight deamplification of the image, lowering noise, but also slightly lowering DR. (Additionally, ISO 125, 250, etc. are pushed from the previous native setting, which contributes to their CONSIDERABLE noise...avoid +1/3 ISO stops at all costs!)

This video is a helpful demonstration: http://vimeo.com/10473734

Either way you slice it, you should try ISO 160, 320, 640 and see how you like the results. I have not noticed any huge issue with using those ISO's, and if there is any loss in DR, its never been a problem for me. Additionally, remember that the 18.1mp of your 7D is 48% MORE detail than the 12.2mp of your XSi. At 100% pixel peeping, your looking at noise at a much finer level of detail thann the XSi. If you scale the 7D image down to the size of an XSi image with some standard bicubic, the additional noise should be mitigated against, if not entirely normalized with, your 450D. I've also found that Lightroom 3.5's NR does a pretty good job at reducing noise, and when I print at home with a Canon PIXMA Pro 9500 Mk II @ 13x19", the noise is usually invisible (and some noise is always a bit beneficial for printing smooth gradients, like a fade into shadow or a sunset sky.)