Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D

[awinphoto]

Geez...these negative posts about the 5DMKII's AF with kids has me worried. I currently have an unopened 5DMKII w/ 25-105L F4 kit lens (great price), 70-200L F4 IS, and the 85 1.8 waiting for Christmas. This would be my first DSLR. My current SLR is a film Nikon N90s from the mid-1990s, but it hasn't gotten much use lately as I just don't have time for film anymore. I have never had a problem with its ancient AF.

My main purpose is just to get really high quality pictures of my 2 and 3 year old kids, family, dog, travel, etc. and to use for just general subjects. I had, perhaps nievely assumed that, while not state of the art, the AF in the 5DMKII could cope with that, at least if used with the center point only and AF expansion. For me, image quality is paramount (I admit I am a pixel peeper and do essentially all viewing on-screen). I wanted FF from so that I could start building up a collection of lenses for the long-haul. I will be very disappointed if with this camera and these lenses I cannot get any in-focus shots of my kids when I can do so with any old P&S or even an iPhone.

Am I making a mistake with the 5DMKII? I guess the only alternative would be to either pick up a D700 (though I really hate the idea of spending $1k more on a camera due to be replaced even sooner than the 5D), or wait for the 5DMKIII/D800 (both of which will probably blow out my price range). All very discouraging. Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts.

I would say you have a great system awaiting you... All cameras have their quirks... the 7D has great AF and ok image quality, but the 5d2 has so so AF and great mage quality... the 1d series you need to rob a bank to acquire and shoot tripod/monopod if shooting for prolonged time due to weight... Coming from a 7d, the 5d2 leaves me wanting/expecting more (especially since i shoot professionally) but from another person with a different set of expectations and needs, it may be more than enough to get what you need... I'd definitely give it a good test run and an open mind and see if you're blown away or not...

 

[briansquibb]

Geez...these negative posts about the 5DMKII's AF with kids has me worried. I currently have an unopened 5DMKII w/ 25-105L F4 kit lens (great price), 70-200L F4 IS, and the 85 1.8 waiting for Christmas. This would be my first DSLR. My current SLR is a film Nikon N90s from the mid-1990s, but it hasn't gotten much use lately as I just don't have time for film anymore. I have never had a problem with its ancient AF.

It seems that old school shooter have much less problem with the AF on the 5DII.

For portraits and when they are not running at 100mph, the AF on the 5DII is more than up to it providing:

- the light is decent
- you use the center point for AF
- use SERVO rather than One Shot

Just for the doubters - here is a panned train on a 5D at 1/25, f11, iso50

 

[awinphoto]

Geez...these negative posts about the 5DMKII's AF with kids has me worried. I currently have an unopened 5DMKII w/ 25-105L F4 kit lens (great price), 70-200L F4 IS, and the 85 1.8 waiting for Christmas. This would be my first DSLR. My current SLR is a film Nikon N90s from the mid-1990s, but it hasn't gotten much use lately as I just don't have time for film anymore. I have never had a problem with its ancient AF.

It seems that old school shooter have much less problem with the AF on the 5DII.

For portraits and when they are not running at 100mph, the AF on the 5DII is more than up to it providing:

- the light is decent
- you use the center point for AF
- use SERVO rather than One Shot

Just for the doubters - here is a panned train on a 5D at 1/25, f11, iso50

brian, no one is doubting the 5d's ability during panning and a portrait setting with subjects posing, etc... (even though you have to use the center point and recompose I think is BS, but to each their own)... but in moving situations, unpredictable situations, kids, even like kids on a merry go round where not only is the positioning changing but depth of field within the scene depending how deep they are within thing... stuff like that can be a bit challenging for this camera... Scenes like that you can always use center point but given how quick everything is, you get in a habit of keeping your subject centralized which takes away from the ability to compose... stuff like that the 7d would have a field day with... The perfect camera in my humble opinion would be the 5d2 image and sensor, 7D or 1d AF, and keep the puppy at the current price point. =)

 

[Loswr]

<sarcasm>It must be operator error. Briansquib shoots motorsports with his 5DII and the AF performs flawlessly, tracking fast-moving carts around curves, even moving toward and and away from the camera. If you can't even shoot a running kid, don't blame the camera.</sarcasm>

Yes, I know from experience that the 5DII's AF is pretty bad with anything moving. That's the main reason I plan to get a 1D X as soon as they're available.

<insult> removed <insult>

Just because you cant run 100m in <11 sec doesn't mean no one else can

Thanks for the kind insult. The <sarcasm> was not directed at you, but rather at awinphoto - I wanted to be absolutely clear that I was not insulting his technique or skill, in the case of shooting kids playing. As Orangutan correctly stated, that's a challenging situation for AF, and IMO the 5DII is quite bad at it, relative to the 7D for example.

I've certainly acknowledged that your photos of moving subjects with the 5DII are excellent, but I still don't believe that they're relvant or proving your points - the panning shot of the train being a great example of the fact that it's not the camera responsible for keeping the subject in focus, it's the skill of the photographer. You are following the train, that's what panning means. Furthermore, it's at a distance and at f/11 - your AF could have been off by many yards and the subject would still be in focus. The 5DII's AF isn't doing the job. Like several of the go cart examples, they highlight your ample skill, but do not convincingly demonstrate the capability (or lack thereof) of the 5DII's AF system.

The simple fact is that if I put a fast-focusing lens like the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II on the 5DII, put it in AI Servo, set it to f/2.8 and put the center AF point over one of my kids running around the yard and start tracking and shooting, my keeper rate is pretty low. If I put the same lens on the 7D in AI Servo, the keeper rate is close to 100%, despite taking 2x as many shots with the faster frame rate.

Just for the doubters - here is a panned train on a 5D at 1/25, f11, iso50

So, this thread is about how the IQ of the 7D is bad at low ISO. Just for the doubters, here is an ISO 100 shot from the 7D:

Now, does that show that the 7D has no noise at low ISO? Sure, it does - just about as convincingly as your panning shots demonstrate the effectiveness of the 5DII's AF.

 

[briansquibb]

brian, no one is doubting the 5d's ability during panning and a portrait setting with subjects posing, etc... (even though you have to use the center point and recompose I think is BS, but to each their own)... but in moving situations, unpredictable situations, kids, even like kids on a merry go round where not only is the positioning changing but depth of field within the scene depending how deep they are within thing... stuff like that can be a bit challenging for this camera... Scenes like that you can always use center point but given how quick everything is, you get in a habit of keeping your subject centralized which takes away from the ability to compose... stuff like that the 7d would have a field day with... The perfect camera in my humble opinion would be the 5d2 image and sensor, 7D or 1d AF, and keep the puppy at the current price point. =)

I regret buying my 7Ds as, yes I got more in focus than the 5DII but each 5DII image that is in focus is far better than those from the 7D - especially the bokeh from the 7D which is horrible in comparison.

The one beauty about the 5DII is that you can use the centre point for focus then crop to get the AF point off centre and still have a better IQ than any 7D will give.

 

[briansquibb]

Back to this 7D issue. It is clear that the 7D for most people does not show significant noise at 100-200 - certainly not on my 2 7Ds either, I checked.

So, this thread is about how the IQ of the 7D is bad at low ISO. Just for the doubters, here is an ISO 100 shot from the 7D:

Now, does that show that the 7D has no noise at low ISO? Sure, it does - just about as convincingly as your panning shots demonstrate the effectiveness of the 5DII's AF.

So has the OP got camera or operator error?

 

[awinphoto]

brian, no one is doubting the 5d's ability during panning and a portrait setting with subjects posing, etc... (even though you have to use the center point and recompose I think is BS, but to each their own)... but in moving situations, unpredictable situations, kids, even like kids on a merry go round where not only is the positioning changing but depth of field within the scene depending how deep they are within thing... stuff like that can be a bit challenging for this camera... Scenes like that you can always use center point but given how quick everything is, you get in a habit of keeping your subject centralized which takes away from the ability to compose... stuff like that the 7d would have a field day with... The perfect camera in my humble opinion would be the 5d2 image and sensor, 7D or 1d AF, and keep the puppy at the current price point. =)

I regret buying my 7Ds as, yes I got more in focus than the 5DII but each 5DII image that is in focus is far better than those from the 7D - especially the bokeh from the 7D which is horrible in comparison.

The one beauty about the 5DII is that you can use the centre point for focus then crop to get the AF point off centre and still have a better IQ than any 7D will give.

To each their own... your ability to crop is probably as easy/quick for me to run a batch noise filter and get the same IQ as the 5d, and heck... I'd have 3-4 In Focus shots to choose from to the 5d2's 1 shot to chose from... Dont get me wrong, I like the possibilities of the 5d2 and see it's potential and place in my line up and heck, if the 5d3 comes out to be my dream camera, both my cameras could go up for sale to buy the new camera and maybe lenses... Both the 7D and 5d2 are fine cameras in their own right and strengths... and to your question for neuro regarding the OP, I thought we all concluded the image had a bit of both operator and camera problems with the image being a tad under for the original photos but also inherit noise that would not be printable.

 

[EYEONE]

especially the bokeh from the 7D which is horrible in comparison.

 

[briansquibb]

To each their own... your ability to crop is probably as easy/quick for me to run a batch noise filter and get the same IQ as the 5d, and heck... I'd have 3-4 In Focus shots to choose from to the 5d2's 1 shot to chose from...

You will still have the issue of the fast lens and the poor bokeh. It is not just the noise - it is the issue of ff vs crop - and the IQ will still not be as good.

Remember I have both and have tried everything to get the 7D as good as the 5DII - and now the 7Ds are in the draw waiting to be sold

 

[awinphoto]

To each their own... your ability to crop is probably as easy/quick for me to run a batch noise filter and get the same IQ as the 5d, and heck... I'd have 3-4 In Focus shots to choose from to the 5d2's 1 shot to chose from...

You will still have the issue of the fast lens and the poor bokeh. It is not just the noise - it is the issue of ff vs crop - and the IQ will still not be as good.

Remember I have both and have tried everything to get the 7D as good as the 5DII - and now the 7Ds are in the draw waiting to be sold

I have both also... right now i'm on the verge on giving up on the 5d2 for anything but studio and controlled environments... I've never had an issue with bokeh... Just isn't something that I shoot a lot of and it's not where I make my money professionally so I shoot what makes me money... That's your personal preference but it doesn't mean the 7d is a bad camera, it's just not for you.

 

[Loswr]

especially the bokeh from the 7D which is horrible in comparison.

Yeah, I was curoius about that too. I don't see how that can be the case. Certainly for the same framing and aperture, the 7D will have less OOF blur - but bokeh is the quality of that blur, and I had thought that was a property of the lens for the most part. The one area in which sensor size might play a role in bokeh is the 'cat's-eye' shapes of OOF highlights, which result from optical vignetting - but in that case, the crop sensor would be better than FF (assuming we're comparing the same lens, but that's the only possible relevant comparison for bokeh), since the smaller sensor reduces vignetting.

 

[JR]

The simple fact is that if I put a fast-focusing lens like the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II on the 5DII, put it in AI Servo, set it to f/2.8 and put the center AF point over one of my kids running around the yard and start tracking and shooting, my keeper rate is pretty low. If I put the same lens on the 7D in AI Servo, the keeper rate is close to 100%, despite taking 2x as many shots with the faster frame rate.

I was going to get a 7D for that very reason...that was until the 1DX was announced so I will wait for it but shooting my little daughter on the move even using servo AF with my 5D mkII is such a pain! In the same setup you describe above, my keep rate with my 5D mkII is almost zero! So I just gave up ???

 

[Loswr]

I was going to get a 7D for that very reason...that was until the 1DX was announced so I will wait for it but shooting my little daughter on the move even using servo AF with my 5D mkII is such a pain! In the same setup you describe above, my keep rate with my 5D mkII is almost zero! So I just gave up ???

Just shoot at f/11 - it will seem like the AF is doing a good job. Don't mind that the background is in crisp focus, too.

 

[awinphoto]

I was going to get a 7D for that very reason...that was until the 1DX was announced so I will wait for it but shooting my little daughter on the move even using servo AF with my 5D mkII is such a pain! In the same setup you describe above, my keep rate with my 5D mkII is almost zero! So I just gave up ???

Just shoot at f/11 - it will seem like the AF is doing a good job. Don't mind that the background is in crisp focus, too.

Hey neuro... just out of curiosity... Most people say the 7D's diffraction limit is roughly F7 give or take... what is the 5d2's?

 

[dtaylor]

I regret buying my 7Ds as, yes I got more in focus than the 5DII but each 5DII image that is in focus is far better than those from the 7D - especially the bokeh from the 7D which is horrible in comparison.

LOL! Bokeh is entirely a quality of the LENS.

If you don't know this then don't bother to offer an opinion on how the bodies compare.

The one beauty about the 5DII is that you can use the centre point for focus then crop to get the AF point off centre and still have a better IQ than any 7D will give.

A demonstrably false statement since the two are very evenly matched at low to mid ISO when the 5D2 has all of its pixels, something that can be confirmed by comparing test images and measurements at sites like DP Review and Imaging Resource (to eliminate any chance of operator error).

 

[Loswr]

Hey neuro... just out of curiosity... Most people say the 7D's diffraction limit is roughly F7 give or take... what is the 5d2's?

It's f/6.9 for the 7D and f/10.2 for the 5DII. Note that those are the apertures at which diffraction theoretically begins to reduce image sharpness...but it's a subtle thing at first, getting progressively more impactful as you stop down futher.

 

[awinphoto]

Hey neuro... just out of curiosity... Most people say the 7D's diffraction limit is roughly F7 give or take... what is the 5d2's?

It's f/6.9 for the 7D and f/10.2 for the 5DII. Note that those are the apertures at which diffraction theoretically begins to reduce image sharpness...but it's a subtle thing at first, getting progressively more impactful as you stop down futher.

Thanks... i was hoping with the much lower pixel density it would be lower like F16, but F10 i suppose is a stop and a third more roughly... saving up for your 1dx?

 

[dtaylor]

Yeah, I was curoius about that too. I don't see how that can be the case. Certainly for the same framing and aperture, the 7D will have less OOF blur - but bokeh is the quality of that blur, and I had thought that was a property of the lens for the most part. The one area in which sensor size might play a role in bokeh is the 'cat's-eye' shapes of OOF highlights, which result from optical vignetting - but in that case, the crop sensor would be better than FF (assuming we're comparing the same lens, but that's the only possible relevant comparison for bokeh), since the smaller sensor reduces vignetting.

Yes, with one caveat: if the lenses being used on FF and crop have the same diameter of aperture, and the background is far enough in the distance, then background blur will be identical. Blur near the plane of focus is controlled by DoF. Blur far outside the plane of focus is controlled by physical aperture size. (Not the f-stop, but the actual size of the opening for the lens at the given f-stop.)

This doesn't often happen indoors because the background is generally too close. For outdoor shots though you can end up with the same background blur on FF and crop. Subject DoF will still be more shallow on FF, though that may or may not be desirable.

 

[Loswr]

saving up for your 1dx?

Cash in hand, just waiting for B&H to start accepting pre-orders. ;D

 

[K-amps]

saving up for your 1dx?

Cash in hand, just waiting for B&H to start accepting pre-orders. ;D

Lucky Man!