EOS 6D Mark II to Move Upmarket? [CR1]

[kphoto99]

What I find perplexing is in a shrinking market, why is Canon not doing more to revitalize Consumer demand/excitement? I go to social events, and in most cases I'm the only with a real camera. Everyone else is happy to be shooting with their phones. That has be an issue they are feeling! So why not make it more tempting for a consumer to desire and spring for one of their bodies and in turn more Canon lenses?

As I've said before, times change and people change. Now-a-days not everyone wants/needs a "real camera." Many people wouldn't take a DSLR as a gift, because they don't want/need a DSLR. As you said: "Everyone else is happy to be shooting with their phones."

Some reasons.
1. A DSLR won't fit in your pocket/purse.
2. A DSLR won't post a photo to Instagram or Facebook.
3. A DSLR doesn't have apps like Snapseed or Perfectly Clear available.

Nothing can be done about 1, but there is no reason that a DSLR could not do 2 and 3.

 

[unfocused]

Some reasons.
1. A DSLR won't fit in your pocket/purse.
2. A DSLR won't post a photo to Instagram or Facebook.
3. A DSLR doesn't have apps like Snapseed or Perfectly Clear available.

Nothing can be done about 1, but there is no reason that a DSLR could not do 2 and 3.

A point I've been trying to make as well. Camera manufacturers are behaving like dinosaurs when it comes to social media and connectivity.

Said it before and will say it again – it's pathetic that no manufacturer has produced a DSLR that gives the professional photographer a fighting chance to post pictures from the wedding before the guests do with their iPhones.

We expect brides to pay thousands of dollars for a wedding photographer and then the pictures on her Facebook page are a bunch of shots from camera phones because they can be uploaded instantly.

Until a paid photographer has the tools to post pictures straight to a customer's Facebook from the back of the camera, manufacturers are failing their customers.

 

[Lee Jay]

Until a paid photographer has the tools to post pictures straight to a customer's Facebook from the back of the camera, manufacturers are failing their customers.

I wouldn't do that even if I had a tool that could do it. It's like saying a chef is a failure because they spent hours preparing a meal when they could have just served the guests some McNuggets in a few minutes.

 

[Mr_Canuck]

Touched a nerve her, perhaps?

The 6D has been outgunned (and outpriced) by Nikon. If sales are slow – who said? – then it's because of direct comparisons on features but forgetting price point (ie. DPReview et al).

The 6D has a very rudimentary focus system. Probably a fatal flaw for marketing. In actual use I think it's a great camera, and I just use the centre point for everything. Coming from Pentax... it's a whole lot faster AF experience even with the 6D.

Everywhere else, the 6D is spot on for an enthusiast full-frame. I say, keep it cheap. Just upsize the AF a titch.

 

[c.d.embrey]

As I've said before, times change and people change. Now-a-days not everyone wants/needs a "real camera." Many people wouldn't take a DSLR as a gift, because they don't want/need a DSLR. As you said: "Everyone else is happy to be shooting with their phones."

Some reasons.
1. A DSLR won't fit in your pocket/purse.
2. A DSLR won't post a photo to Instagram or Facebook.
3. A DSLR doesn't have apps like Snapseed or Perfectly Clear available.

Nothing can be done about 1, but there is no reason that a DSLR could not do 2 and 3.

A DSLR would also have to be a phone to do #1. Not impossible, but also not likely. Canon could also use near field communication (NFC) to make it easy to connect your camera to your cell-phone (also not likely).

Nikon guru Thom Hogan has been talking about the need for camera companies to implement #3 for several years (maybe more). Only Sony has done anything http://discover.store.sony.com/playmemoriesapps/ Being easy seems to have nothing to do with why/how CaNikon does things.

BTW #1 is the main reason that camera-phones users will not step-up to "real" cameras.

 

[c.d.embrey]

One of my friends doesn't shoot any of the above.... or anything else either ;D. He still has a 0 shutter count Canon 30D sitting on his shelf.

Does he have a camera phone ??? Or just no interest in photography

Well, first he bought it to have something decent for use on a big trip. But then at the last second he became afraid it might get damaged on the trip, having to go through airports and so on. I tried to tell him that my DSLRs came through all trips just fine. I suggested that it might be better to be less fearful of damage than of never ending up using it and having it which would be worse than using it a bit and the odd chance of damage. I said what will you use it for anyway if not for stuff like this? But I couldn't convince him and decided that maybe he didn't even need to take pictures at all on the trip. But then on the trip he became desperate to take pics so he bought a P&S at some inflated price at some little store. But then when he got back he didn't use it either since it was still in perfect condition so why mess it up just shooting around town. And then on the next big trip he was like well it could get damaged and I already have the P&S now so best leave it home again! And then after a while of that it was well now it's obsolete so why use it at all now. ;D I'm not saying it really makes sense! I'm just saying it happened! He did use an SLR once upon a time.

He still has an unopened ORIGINAL Sony Walkman (not the Discman, not the pod player, the tape playing original version of the Walkman) on the shelf. ;D OTOH I bet that and a slew of other original stuff- includng even an undriven car! which now has the lowest mileage in the world for the make and model is worth a lot now to some collectors. So maybe he is the smartest of us all ;D.

Great story!! I had a cassette playing Walkman that became obsolete before I could wear-it-out

Your friend sounds like an interesting person.

 

[candyman]

................
Everywhere else, the 6D is spot on for an enthusiast full-frame. I say, keep it cheap. Just upsize the AF a titch.

+1
The 6D is a good FF camera. Canon should have an affordable FF camera so it isn't a giant step for APS-C users to go FF. The 6D makes a very good combination with a 7D MKII

 

[canon1dxman]

Everywhere else, the 6D is spot on for an enthusiast full-frame. I say, keep it cheap. Just upsize the AF a titch.

Just picked one up at a steal of a price and agree totally. Cracking camera that would benefit from an improved AF

 

[Chris Jankowski]

So, if the 6D moves upwards in specs and price, it is going to be positioned approximately where the 5D3 is now. Since the 7D2 will surely eat part of the current 5D3 market, and if the future 5D4 possibly goes Hi-MP, then there will be room for a new entry level FF... I mean, something equivalent to the Rebel line, but FF. What do you guys think, is it realistic a possible lineup with 4 FF and 4 APS-C dSLRs for all demands and all wallets?

edit: actually, there are 5 APS-C dSLRs currently available, I forgot the 100D.

I think that there is space for two more FF models below 6D or its successor. One would be simple FF - equivalent to 700D and the other would be small and simple FF - equivalent to 100D. Please note that previously the price and size of FF models was gated by the price of the sensor and the bulk of the electronics. With the cheap FF sensors and densely integrated electronics, we can have small DSLR cameras, but with FF sensor. It is only a matter of time before FF DSLRs bodies will be sold at $500 street price. Note that Canon would need to develop cheap kit zoom - 28-55 and cheap tele zoom 55-300 for these cameras.

 

[Woody]

I'll appreciate having 6D M2 with 60D (not 70D/7D please) AF sensor.

Why can't Canon introduce their ancient 1D2 45pt AF sensor in their later camera bodies, now that the 5D3/1Dx/7D2 already have the best?

 

[Woody]

Note that Canon would need to develop cheap kit zoom - 28-55 and cheap tele zoom 55-300 for these cameras.

Canon already has the newly introduced 24-105 f/3.5-5.6 IS STM as well as the aged 70-300 f/4-5.6 IS (non-L) cheap lenses.

 

[x-vision]

... I think what most users including myself have issues with the 6D is that as a consumer you feel Canon is NOT giving you "great value" for your money when they take the AF system back to one center cross-type, while Nikon doesn't seem to cripple their bodies in the same way.

Exactly!

Despite the 'entry level' moniker, the 6D is still a $2K camera.
And at that price, I'm expecting a fully featured camera - not one with a single cross-type AF point.

I think Nikon nailed the formula for 'entry-level' FF with the D750.
Canon would be leaving money on the table if they don't have a competitor.

As for cheaper FF models:
The problem is that it makes no business sense to offer FF for say $1200.
Thus, FF cameras can never be cheap enough to appeal to mass market.
They will remain premium models - and the D750 is now setting the standard for how
a camera in this class needs to be spec'd and priced.
I don't think we'll see new FF models introduced at lower prices than that.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Personally I think it's funny it took Nikon 4 cameras to compete with the 5d3.

If it would be Canon, people would call it clever because Nikon managed to sell 4 models to their customers before they now all want to upgrade to the d750

Errr, I'm not sure I follow your logic there bud! Nikon's sales figures for their attempt to take on the 5DII and 5DIII were very poor. 4 models of which none of them sold well. Canon knocked the ball out of the park with the sales for both the 5DII and 5DIII models. It's a pity they didn't quite get it right with the 6D. A great camera for sure, but not quite what the market wanted or needed.

 

[lintoni]

I think people are mistaken if they think that Canon needs to expand their range of dSLRs. Given that the market for ILCs is in decline, I would expect their range to be simplified, but with the expansion of EOS-M - possibly including a full frame mirrorless, which would then be the entry point to full frame.

 

[bf]

I don't compare a semi-pro APS-C with an entry level full-frame as they have completely different shooters. I am for entry level full-frame whether mirror-less or DSLR. An affordable kit option with valuable lens would be great. My guess is it's cheaper for canon to offer an entry level full-frame DSLR than a new line.

 

[bf]

Comparing an entry level full-frame to a higher model I like to see the differences we see between 7d and 70d ... I mean sealing, construction, weight and so on ... focusing and shooting performance should not lag the cheaper APS-C models. They are not that expensive to include but can be deal breaker for several people.

 

[drob]

All Canon would have to do to a 6DMKII for it to sell like hotcakes is to upgrade the AF system on it. The sensor is still competitive, the megapixels are still good. Keep all the other specs the same. Maybe improve weather sealing. Price it the same as the 7DMKII. I'd upgrade to the 6D in an instant but don't want a step back in AF performance.

 

[pierlux]

So, if the 6D moves upwards in specs and price, it is going to be positioned approximately where the 5D3 is now. Since the 7D2 will surely eat part of the current 5D3 market, and if the future 5D4 possibly goes Hi-MP, then there will be room for a new entry level FF... I mean, something equivalent to the Rebel line, but FF. What do you guys think, is it realistic a possible lineup with 4 FF and 4 APS-C dSLRs for all demands and all wallets?

edit: actually, there are 5 APS-C dSLRs currently available, I forgot the 100D.

I think that there is space for two more FF models below 6D or its successor. One would be simple FF - equivalent to 700D and the other would be small and simple FF - equivalent to 100D. Please note that previously the price and size of FF models was gated by the price of the sensor and the bulk of the electronics. With the cheap FF sensors and densely integrated electronics, we can have small DSLR cameras, but with FF sensor. It is only a matter of time before FF DSLRs bodies will be sold at $500 street price. Note that Canon would need to develop cheap kit zoom - 28-55 and cheap tele zoom 55-300 for these cameras.

Well, if we consider the near future and IF the rumor of the 6D2 moving upwards in specs is true, then one more... maybe, but hardly two, even in the long term. At this point, a FF mirrorless is more likely to happen than a cheap pentamirror FF. As you said, a cheap <1k$ FF would make sense along with cheap kit lenses, so why Canon shoud invest there when they know there's demand for a FF mirrorless? Just my thought, though.

 

[StudentOfLight]

I don't know why everyone just ignored my earlier point. If a 6D mark-II comes to market it doesn't mean the 6D needs to be discontinued immediately. They could sell side by side, just as the 5D-II sold (for more than a year in some places) side-by-side with the 5D-III.

Canon could later introduce a full frame mirrorless product (at an even lower price point than the 6D is at currently) when they want to withdraw the 6D, i.e. when the required technologies are in place. For those who are only interested in full frame from an IQ perspective that would be a viable upgrade path.

There are a few reasons. Marketing 101 will tell you nobody wants to buy a superseded model, even if there is nothing wrong with it. To sell a superseded model you have to drop the price, which is the opposite of what Canon wants. Even if the model is not superseded in name, and even if there is no competing product, we all expect prices to keep dropping as time since release increases. Canon is also faced with the reality that many of us (landscape shooters mainly) don't need anything more "pro" than the 'crippled' 6D - a full frame 70D is what I want, not a marginally cheaper 5DIII. The 6DII with AF & frame-rate of the 7DII, and priced between existing 6D & 5DIII would poach far more users from 5DIII/5DIV than it would upsell from the 6D. FF mirrorless is dangerous territory for Canon. Unless they have dual-pixel pdaf completely sorted, full compatibility with EF lenses without compromise and can compete on features & price with Sony it wouldn't be a very tempting offer for many, even at a slightly lower price point. Canon may do this, but only if their analysis shows that they would lose these customers to another brand if they didn't - I believe it was Steve Jobs who said "if you don't cannibalize yourself, somebody else will".

I previously worked in a marketing-driven business and we used to categorize the market into customers who are price-led, brand-led or value-led. A newer model will appeal more to the brand-led customer but the price-led and value-led customers can still be sold on an older model. The lower price appeals to the price-led customer and it can also appeal to the value-led customer if it offers the features & benefits which they most value.

 

[Marsu42]

All Canon would have to do to a 6DMKII for it to sell like hotcakes is to upgrade the AF system on it.

Of course Canon are aware of that - but why would they want to do such a thing? They'd rather have the more expensive 5d3/5d4 sell like hotcakes and leave the 6d1/6d2 for those who would otherwise switch brands w/o an "entry"-ff camera from Canon available.

If you look at the 6d1, it's not a camera born out of enthusiasm or pride to deliver the best product possible, but a pure necessity. Lucky us you can still take great shots with it once you manage to get something in focus.