EOS 6D Mark II to Move Upmarket? [CR1]

[bchernicoff]

This real world review of the D750 shows what the spiritual successor to the 5D3 (whatever they name it) needs to target. http://petapixel.com/2014/10/14/nikon-d750-review-nikon-youve-created-monster/

PS I'm not interested in a flamewar. Just adding a data point for what the competition's refreshed body is offering.

 

[Coldhands]

So basically Canon will tell it's crop users that want to move to FF to look at other brands (like the D750)

How so? Are you already assuming that a future 6DII will be uncompetitive when it debuts?

Also, I know many users of APS-C bodies that own one or more EF lenses (myself included) which provides a good incentive to remain with Canon.

It is a always a trade of. In my case I am looking at FF for improved IQ. Currently the 6D is the best balance of price/IQ. If the price of 6DII goes to the neighborhood of 5DIII then that is no longer a case. From what I have read the D750 has a better IQ then the 6D, currently 6D wins on price but looses on AF.
The few FF lenses that I have are more applicable to the 1.6 crop factor and they would not be so desirable on FF, this is why replacing them by changing brand would not be a big sacrifice.

That would make sense except for the fact that there's nothing to preclude the possibility of Canon introducing new nameplate for a camera that occupies the same market space as the current 6D does. Or, it could turn out to be a subtle repositioning of the 6D line at something similar to the current pricepoint. In any case, I highly doubt Canon is clueless enough to leave such a glaring hole in their lineup.

 

[Jack Douglas]

"The other part of my problem with Canon, and that has nothing to do with future price of 6D is why the control layout between different levels of cameras is so different. Somebody who starts with a xxxD and moves to xxD or xD will have to relearn muscle memory for controlling the camera. If you have to relearn all the layout then what is keeping you with a brand. I don't know if that is the same with other manufactures, but I think that is so stupid."

I typically carry the 6D with the 300 2.8 X2 and having one hand on the lens and being able to view shots using just the right hand is great. My 40D requires both hands on the camera body and is not nearly as convenient. The problem I have is that my finger sometimes is challenged with the select button within the L R U D selectors so when deleting a picture I sometimes end up forward or back. With some tweaking the 6D layout is superior IMHO.

Put a better AF as mentioned and a bit higher frame rate and I wouldn't even consider a crop second camera.

6D and me.

Jack

 

[Hannes]

I still believe there is a space in canon's line up for a small and light full format DSLR. Imagine a rebel but with the 6D sensor.

Why they didn't plonk the old 1Ds III AF system into the 6D from the start is beyond me though. Even if they removed all the assist points it would have been a whole lot better.

 

[Nethawk]

So basically Canon will tell it's crop users that want to move to FF to look at other brands (like the D750)

How so? Are you already assuming that a future 6DII will be uncompetitive when it debuts?

Also, I know many users of APS-C bodies that own one or more EF lenses (myself included) which provides a good incentive to remain with Canon.

There are two market segments for an entry level FF from any manufacturer:


1. Those moving up from APS-C
2. Those just getting into photography and want (and can afford) FF


For those who fall into #1 up-leveling the current 6D in both price and feature set will have little bearing on sales, other than those who may need to delay purchase for price drops. #2 is the sweet spot - new users. In this the competition will make a much larger impact on future roadmaps and pricing. Currently the 6D falls between Nikon and Sony in pricing, it can't leapfrog the competition by much and achieve its goal of increased sales, if in fact this was one of their concerns.

 

[StudentOfLight]

I am curious as to why some folks don't find the build very good. Just because it doesn't have a complete magnesium body doesn't mean that it isn't rugged. I just rented a 6D and thought that the build quality excellent. The image quality and low light performance with Canon lenses was outstanding(The Tokina 16-28 didn't AF as well as my 7D with the 10-22 in a real estate shoot that I did) I hope that they keep a low cost full frame stills camera body available. I am thinking of pairing up a 6D and a 7DmkII as my main kit. I have a bunch to sell first :'(

The body itself is quite rugged, although YMMV. Mine has fallen off a coffee table (onto a tiled floor) with Tamron 24-70 attached without any ill effect. Plastic (as used in the 6D and Tamron's lens hood) is quite shock-absorbing and so can help prevent damage to more brittle components. Integrating engineering plastics and rubber into a body in the correct places does not necessarily have a detrimental effect on a camera's impact resistance.

Onto the bad... the LCD is not as scratch resistant as my 5D and the EB eyecup can be dislodged relatively easily which irritates the crap out of me. The EG eyecup as used in the 5D-III, 1D cameras as well as the new 7D-II is so much better. Some people have also complained that they accumulate more sensor spots (due to dust ingress past the lens presumably) but I haven't noticed a difference yet. I might have a set of cameras that is the exception-to-the-rule. Either way I've given you at least a couple reasons why the 6D is not on the same level in terms of build quality compared to the 5D-III.

 

[privatebydesign]

This real world review of the D750 shows what the spiritual successor to the 5D3 (whatever they name it) needs to target. http://petapixel.com/2014/10/14/nikon-d750-review-nikon-youve-created-monster/

PS I'm not interested in a flamewar. Just adding a data point for what the competition's refreshed body is offering.

If you check other Nikon users input on the D750 they consider it to be a closer match to the the 6D from a feature set point of view. Many are still criticizing Nikon for failing to bring out a 'true' D700 replacement, the D700 is a 5D MkIII with 12MP.

 

[Lee Jay]

This real world review of the D750 shows what the spiritual successor to the 5D3 (whatever they name it) needs to target. http://petapixel.com/2014/10/14/nikon-d750-review-nikon-youve-created-monster/

PS I'm not interested in a flamewar. Just adding a data point for what the competition's refreshed body is offering.

To me, a 5DIV should be 6552x4368 (28.8MP - the short edge is the same pixel dimension as the 5D classic's long edge) dual-pixel with greatly reduced read and fixed pattern noise compared to the 5DIII. It should be 7fps (28.8*7 ~= 20.2*10 so the same pixel throughput as 7DII), and have a similar AF system as 7DII. Personally, I'd like the popup flash (the Nikon D750 and D810 have it so no whining from the "it would make the hump to big" or "it would be too fragile" crowd). Same video features as 7DII except include UHD as a 1:1 pixel (1.7x crop) option. This avoids any need to pixel bin or resample and so shouldn't be too difficult to implement (so, no whining from the Canon engineering crowd). While we're at it, add that same option to the 7DII through firmware (1.425x crop on that camera). I'd tolerate 24fps which would leave the pixel throughput the same as the stills burst rate, but 30fps would be better). It should also have the nifty 7DII features such as the strobe thing, the flexible viewfinder thing, and the focus mode lever thing.

Price it around $3k and it'll be a winner for sure.

 

[Sporgon]

I am curious as to why some folks don't find the build very good. Just because it doesn't have a complete magnesium body doesn't mean that it isn't rugged. I just rented a 6D and thought that the build quality excellent. The image quality and low light performance with Canon lenses was outstanding(The Tokina 16-28 didn't AF as well as my 7D with the 10-22 in a real estate shoot that I did) I hope that they keep a low cost full frame stills camera body available. I am thinking of pairing up a 6D and a 7DmkII as my main kit. I have a bunch to sell first :'(

+1, you cannot tell that the 6D has a plastic top plate even when you have both 6D and 5D in hand and tap the top. It does scratch much more easily but that's about it. However the 6D does have much softer controls, and the rear command wheel is disappointing compared with a 5D. The eight way controller feels imprecise compared with the joystick nub but works well enough.

It's inevitable that each model moves onwards and upwards, as unfocused pointed out. Given the price point of the new 7DII Canon must feel pretty secure with their full frame premium.

 

[unfocused]

We’re told that Canon hasn’t been fully satisfied with the sales of the Canon EOS 6D...

I seriously doubt if Canon has been disappointed with the sales of the 6D. The 6D is almost certainly the best-selling full frame camera on the market today. Certainly has outsold the D600/610...

Feature and price creep is always a dilemma for any manufacturer. Look at cars. Manufacturers always start out with a budget car and then, in order make it "new" each season they have to add features and cost. Eventually, the budget car become a mid-level car and they have to start over with a new budget model...

The 6DII has to be better than the 6D, but that means it gets closer in features to the 5DIII...

As a counter argument, look at the Rebel (t2i->t5i), features have been going up (not for image quality improvements), but the price has been creeping down.

Yes, I painted with an overly broad brush. There is always some counter-pressure to keep the next model in line with the previous model for pricing purposes (7DI vs. 7DII for example).

The point that I probably didn't make clear enough is that I think there is plenty of room between the 6D and 5DIII price points for a third model. Whether the 6DII stays at the current price point and a new model moves in-between or whether the 6DII moves up in price and a new entry level model is created, really doesn't matter.

 

[bcflood]

I was hoping that Canon would go the other route with the 6D or some other FF camera and give a cheaper option for those wanting to make the jump from crop. I would think this would be a good way to lure advanced amateurs in and sell some more lenses. Those who like FF and want to take it further could then jump to a 5D3(4) later. If they make the first step into FF too steep, most amateurs will consider it too pricy an option to experiment with.

If the 6Dmk2 does go higher end, I'd hope that a "lower-end" FF would be introduced, priced slightly higher than a 70D ($1,500ish).

 

[JMZawodny]

We'll see what the 6D2 is when it comes out.

I wish Canon had a bit more clarity on their naming/numbering of products. I my opinion they screwed with the 6D and 7D. The odd numbers 1Dx, 3, 5D, 7D, ... should be full frame sensors and the even numbers 2, 4, 6D, ... should have been APS-C. That way you know from the name/number exactly where it fits in the line-up, features, and sensor size.

 

[unfocused]

This real world review of the D750 shows what the spiritual successor to the 5D3 (whatever they name it) needs to target. http://petapixel.com/2014/10/14/nikon-d750-review-nikon-youve-created-monster/

PS I'm not interested in a flamewar. Just adding a data point for what the competition's refreshed body is offering.

Perhaps not, but it may begin anyway.

Seriously, I have a hard time understanding why the 5DIV would need to "target" the D750. It seems to me the D750 is targeting the 5DIII a few years late. Not seeing anything of significance in the D750 that isn't in the 5DIII and there are a number of things the 5DIII still does better. An "upgrade" of the 5D to that simply reflects the D750, would be very disappointing.

I'd rather see a 5DIII that targets the 70D, 6D and 7DII (Dual pixel autofocus, wi-fi, touch screen, improved autofocus, greater frame rate, etc.) Improve upon the best features of those three cameras and you've got a winner.

 

[unfocused]

...I wish Canon had a bit more clarity on their naming/numbering of products...The odd numbers 1Dx, 3, 5D, 7D, ... should be full frame sensors and the even numbers 2, 4, 6D, ... should have been APS-C. That way you know from the name/number exactly where it fits in the line-up, features, and sensor size.

Maybe it is more about what numbers happened to be available? On the other hand, the 1D, 5D and 7D are all "professional" or top of the line cameras in terms of build quality. 6D build quality is much closer to the XXD family.

 

[c.d.embrey]

"... but increasing margins to offset decreasing sales numbers is good business ..."

Unless the price increase causes your customers not to buy Or maybe switch brands That would be extremely bad business

Canon, along with many other conservative Japanese companies, is having a hard time adapting to the present reality of a changing world. Sony is being killed by inexpensive "good-enough" televisions that cost-conscious consumers are buying. And expensive Full Frame DSLRs may kill CaNikon. Not everyone is a Very Serious Photography Enthusiast.

 

[StudentOfLight]

I don't know why everyone just ignored my earlier point. If a 6D mark-II comes to market it doesn't mean the 6D needs to be discontinued immediately. They could sell side by side, just as the 5D-II sold (for more than a year in some places) side-by-side with the 5D-III.

Canon could later introduce a full frame mirrorless product (at an even lower price point than the 6D is at currently) when they want to withdraw the 6D, i.e. when the required technologies are in place. For those who are only interested in full frame from an IQ perspective that would be a viable upgrade path.

 

[Tugela]

All the more reason to jump ship. Increasing the cost of new products based on archaic technology does not seem to be in the consumers best interests IMO. Perhaps if enough people leave their brand they will increase the price of their prosumer cameras to the 10K range to make up the difference?

 

[bchernicoff]

Seriously, I have a hard time understanding why the 5DIV would need to "target" the D750. It seems to me the D750 is targeting the 5DIII a few years late.

It's fair to say the D750 targets the 5DMk3. Look, my progression with Canon bodies went 7D -> 5DM2 -> 5DM3 -> 6D. I loved the 5DM3 but realized the 6D was all I really needed. Canon had 30% off refurb 6D bodies, so I sold the 5DM3 and bought the 6D and a Fuji X-E1 kit with the extra money (studio camera, travel camera). I've never own ed a Nikon but looking at the 5 stop push of an underexposed image he did in that article and knowing how much more shadow detail there is in my Fuji RAW files is eye opening. I'm sure in a month we'll all be reading about all the quality issues with the D750 like all recent Nikon bodies. I'm not suggesting anyone switch. I'm suggesting that whatever Canon does sensor-wise, it needs to be as good as the D750's.

 

[windsorc]

Neither Canon or Nikon want to make a budget FF camera. It's the same logic that stops them from successfully developing mirrorless cameras.
Fear of losing sales to their other cameras, and it's not a good budget model. ideally I'd like to be able to step up from a beginners camera to either an advanced APS-C or a less advanced FF, and having a $1500 body would give me that option. I'm not sure that any of the camera companies have a well thought out upgrade plan as to where
customer can upgrade to, the option seems to be move from a $600 camera to FF, which is a huge leap in cost, or move from $600 to a more advanced APS-C and forego FF altogether, or at least for another few years.

 

[quod]

The Economic LAW of supply and demand says when the price goes up the quantity demanded goes down... ;D

I'm sure that Canon employs one or two people with economics degrees that can do a optimization calculation. If not, I'm sure they could check in with a high school calculus teacher.

You mean the same brainiacs that priced the EOS M at $800?