EOS 80D first impressions

[PhotoGuy]

As it tuns out, Adobe have recently changed their color profile for Canon cameras:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/potential-issue-with-canon-80d-color-saturation-in-lr6-5?topic-reply-list

With the old profile, Canon colors have a much more saturated red channel.
And with the new profile, Lightroom and ACR render 80D colors the same way as on newer Sony cameras (e.g. A6300 and A7RII).

The new colors are presumably more faithful (??) - but I actually like the old saturated colors better.
No wonder I almost never increased saturation in post.

I just did some tests with the dpreview files:
Your statement about the red channel is right. Increasing the red-channel saturation in the DPreview jpegs by a value of +15 matches the colors closely to the ones from the 70D.
I developed both raw files in DPP and the colors are the same between 70D and 80D. So its purely an adobe thing. The canon profiles in lightroom should be fine and there's no reason to worry.

 

[axtstern]

First of all apologies for still not having delivered the promised low light high ISO pictures... will not be able to deliver before coming weekend.

The discussion here centers arround the capacity of the sensor and the resolution. Still I believe the point where the 80D shines is the improved handling. I can#t compare the 80 to the 7D2 because I do not own this camera but I can compare it to the 5d3 which I have used since selling my 60D.

With the 80D I feel I master the AF, while with the 5D3 I always feel that I stumble over my own legs by having chosen the wrong case, having missed the optical feedback from the AF point etc...

If an articulating touchscreen is a must and the size, reach and weight of crop is a desire than the view through the 80D viewer is the most comfortable and luxurious Canon has ever offered. The tint of the red or a colur fringe in a 800% crop does not bother me.

By the way since the 80D is i the house the M3 has become completely obsolete.

 

[Hector1970]

I'm surprised it's not better than the 7DII are high ISO.
I don't find the 7DII a particularly good performer at high ISO.
I don't like the type of noise it gets.

so heres the big question
is the 80D better overall then 7d2??

Hmmm ... Question complex.

In high ISO, 7D Mark II is still looking better.
In low ISO, 80D took the lead in Canon land.
When you have to push shadows, 80D is better
When you need to print paper longer than 1 meter, 80D is better.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Anybody else noticed the weak colors compared to a 70D, 6D or 5Ds?

Yes, I've noticed. So, I asked a question on the Photoshop feedback forum.
As it tuns out, Adobe have recently changed their color profile for Canon cameras:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/potential-issue-with-canon-80d-color-saturation-in-lr6-5?topic-reply-list

With the old profile, Canon colors have a much more saturated red channel.
And with the new profile, Lightroom and ACR render 80D colors the same way as on newer Sony cameras (e.g. A6300 and A7RII).

The new colors are presumably more faithful (??) - but I actually like the old saturated colors better.
No wonder I almost never increased saturation in post.

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor. From what I've heard over the past year, most (if not all) Canon cameras from now on will have Sony built sensors with engineering from both Canon and Sony engineers dictating their design.

 

[faustino]

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor. From what I've heard over the past year, most (if not all) Canon cameras from now on will have Sony built sensors with engineering from both Canon and Sony engineers dictating their design.

Are you sure about the above statement? As far as I know, Canon is perhaps using a sony sensor for their 1 inch compact cameras, and I am not even sure about that. The 80D sensor employs dual pixel autofocus, It seems strange that Canon outsourced that kind of technology production to Sony.
I admit that I don't have any hard evidence that proves my belief that Canon is still producing its own sensors; thus, I may be wrong. Please let us know whether you have anything that support your statements, it would be an interesting piece of news.
Thanks.

 

[Luds34]

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor. From what I've heard over the past year, most (if not all) Canon cameras from now on will have Sony built sensors with engineering from both Canon and Sony engineers dictating their design.

Are you sure about the above statement? As far as I know, Canon is perhaps using a sony sensor for their 1 inch compact cameras, and I am not even sure about that. The 80D sensor employs dual pixel autofocus, It seems strange that Canon outsourced that kind of technology production to Sony.
I admit that I don't have any hard evidence that proves my belief that Canon is still producing its own sensors; thus, I may be wrong. Please let us know whether you have anything that support your statements, it would be an interesting piece of news.
Thanks.

And while it appears we see some improvements of DR at base ISO in the 80D, it still isn't anywhere near what Sony/Nikon have had for years now. Wouldn't the DR be basically equal if it were a Sony sensor?

 

[RustyTheGeek]

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor. From what I've heard over the past year, most (if not all) Canon cameras from now on will have Sony built sensors with engineering from both Canon and Sony engineers dictating their design.

Are you sure about the above statement? As far as I know, Canon is perhaps using a sony sensor for their 1 inch compact cameras, and I am not even sure about that. The 80D sensor employs dual pixel autofocus, It seems strange that Canon outsourced that kind of technology production to Sony.
I admit that I don't have any hard evidence that proves my belief that Canon is still producing its own sensors; thus, I may be wrong. Please let us know whether you have anything that support your statements, it would be an interesting piece of news.
Thanks.

It's just rumors from my local camera shop. But my local camera shop has been in business for over 30+ years. They get inventory when others don't. They have relationships others don't. They have looong term employees that are actual photographers and have worked there a long time. I have no reason to doubt their 'rumors'. They're just not those kind of people.

And it makes sense. I discussed this in another thread a few months back. Essentially, Sony has a lot of experience and manufacturing capacity for sensors. It's no secret that they have made all varieties of sensors for just about everyone under the sun since the '90's. Their relationship with Nikon recently took a negative turn and Canon used that opportunity to create a stronger synergy with Sony. Sony's strengths contribute to Canon's strengths in the camera industry. And Canon offers a lot that Sony lacks like significantly better lens/body production lines and a well established photography support infrastructure (esp in the pro market). But Sony offers a lot in the sensor arena including advanced production lines so Canon is taking advantage of that. This sensor relationship has been the case for quite a while actually but lately it has become a stronger partnership that will benefit Sony as well as Canon. Sony will still put their absolute best sensors in their own cameras but the Canon cameras will get virtually the same tech depending on Canon's design, etc. Meanwhile, Nikon will have to manage with watered down sensor tech from Sony because AFAIK Nikon doesn't make their own sensors.

 

[bdunbar79]

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor. From what I've heard over the past year, most (if not all) Canon cameras from now on will have Sony built sensors with engineering from both Canon and Sony engineers dictating their design.

Are you sure about the above statement? As far as I know, Canon is perhaps using a sony sensor for their 1 inch compact cameras, and I am not even sure about that. The 80D sensor employs dual pixel autofocus, It seems strange that Canon outsourced that kind of technology production to Sony.
I admit that I don't have any hard evidence that proves my belief that Canon is still producing its own sensors; thus, I may be wrong. Please let us know whether you have anything that support your statements, it would be an interesting piece of news.
Thanks.

Don't listen to that crap. I can guarantee you it is NOT a Sony sensor.

 

[martti]

We'll have to wait for Roger Cicala to take the 80D apart and spill the beans.
Am I not understanging things once again...why should people be stuck with the Adobe profile for their camera if they do not like the rendering? I found out that my Sony A6000 actually produces pretty much the colors I want when I switch to 'camera neutral' profile. The blue grey cast I was crying about has vanished and I cannot honestly tell which picture has come from my 5DIII and which onee from the A6000 unless I look if it is DSC or CR.

You can even make your own profiles on a rainy day with nothing else to do.
I was very surprised to find an article that absolutely makes sense about white balance and color problems created by filtered or reflected non-white light.


Despite violent Googling, I could not find the article I was talking about but here are others:
http://varis.com/2014/05/21/colorchecker-camera-calibration/
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6497352654/get-more-accurate-color-with-camera-calibration-

 

[RustyTheGeek]

... Despite violent Googling ...

Now THAT is a phrase I've never seen but I will definitely have use myself sometime! Love it! 8)

 

[d]

It's just rumors from my local camera shop. But my local camera shop has been in business for over 30+ years. They get inventory when others don't. They have relationships others don't. They have looong term employees that are actual photographers and have worked there a long time. I have no reason to doubt their 'rumors'. They're just not those kind of people.

And it makes sense. I discussed this in another thread a few months back. Essentially, Sony has a lot of experience and manufacturing capacity for sensors. It's no secret that they have made all varieties of sensors for just about everyone under the sun since the '90's. Their relationship with Nikon recently took a negative turn and Canon used that opportunity to create a stronger synergy with Sony. Sony's strengths contribute to Canon's strengths in the camera industry. And Canon offers a lot that Sony lacks like significantly better lens/body production lines and a well established photography support infrastructure (esp in the pro market). But Sony offers a lot in the sensor arena including advanced production lines so Canon is taking advantage of that. This sensor relationship has been the case for quite a while actually but lately it has become a stronger partnership that will benefit Sony as well as Canon. Sony will still put their absolute best sensors in their own cameras but the Canon cameras will get virtually the same tech depending on Canon's design, etc. Meanwhile, Nikon will have to manage with watered down sensor tech from Sony because AFAIK Nikon doesn't make their own sensors.

...and they all lived happily ever after. The End.

A lovely fairytale.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

It's just rumors from my local camera shop. But my local camera shop has been in business for over 30+ years. They get inventory when others don't. They have relationships others don't. They have looong term employees that are actual photographers and have worked there a long time. I have no reason to doubt their 'rumors'. They're just not those kind of people.

And it makes sense. I discussed this in another thread a few months back. Essentially, Sony has a lot of experience and manufacturing capacity for sensors. It's no secret that they have made all varieties of sensors for just about everyone under the sun since the '90's. Their relationship with Nikon recently took a negative turn and Canon used that opportunity to create a stronger synergy with Sony. Sony's strengths contribute to Canon's strengths in the camera industry. And Canon offers a lot that Sony lacks like significantly better lens/body production lines and a well established photography support infrastructure (esp in the pro market). But Sony offers a lot in the sensor arena including advanced production lines so Canon is taking advantage of that. This sensor relationship has been the case for quite a while actually but lately it has become a stronger partnership that will benefit Sony as well as Canon. Sony will still put their absolute best sensors in their own cameras but the Canon cameras will get virtually the same tech depending on Canon's design, etc. Meanwhile, Nikon will have to manage with watered down sensor tech from Sony because AFAIK Nikon doesn't make their own sensors.

...and they all lived happily ever after. The End.

A lovely fairytale.

I'm just sharing what I've heard. It makes about as much sense as most of the other rumors I've read on this site. Why the doubt?

 

[axtstern]

Rusty the Geek is maybe wrong with the Sony Sensor but he is absolutely right with pointing out that you should mit ne scholded for putting up a rumour on a rumour page.

 

[bdunbar79]

Because it doesn't make any sense. Even if I had no inside knowledge, I still could point out that Canon has explicitly said that their new on-die ADC is their own technology. There are plenty of sites with several interviews on this topic. Secondly, it doesn't make any sense that Canon would share their DPAF technology with anyone. Whether your local camera shop staff has 30+ years experience or not, they are just plain wrong.

Sorry.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Because it doesn't make any sense. Even if I had no inside knowledge, I still could point out that Canon has explicitly said that their new on-die ADC is their own technology. There are plenty of sites with several interviews on this topic. Secondly, it doesn't make any sense that Canon would share their DPAF technology with anyone. Whether your local camera shop staff has 30+ years experience or not, they are just plain wrong.

Sorry.

Companies share technology all the time in partnerships and manufacturing agreements. I didn't say Canon's technology wasn't being used. I just said that Sony's tech was also being used as well as Sony providing more robust and advanced manufacturing resources. What doesn't make sense? That Canon is breaking some kind of assumed loyalty to your sensibilities? ???

 

[faustino]

Companies share technology all the time in partnerships and manufacturing agreements. I didn't say Canon's technology wasn't being used. I just said that Sony's tech was also being used as well as Sony providing more robust and advanced manufacturing resources. What doesn't make sense? That Canon is breaking some kind of assumed loyalty to your sensibilities? ???

It makes sense to offload manufacturing for a company. If Sony had build excess capacity in the manufacturing of sensors, then Canon may prefer to outsource its production to Sony, while protecting its product technology with the issue of patents. It would be a make or buy choice, a kind of tactical decisions that companies make multiple times per year.
Nonetheless, there are some issues that make such scenario unlikely.
First, by leaving out the manufacturing of such a strategic component, Canon would progressively loose one of its core competence (first the know how on production processes, then, more slowly, the know how on the product itself).
Second, more that their customers, they would disappoint their investors who believe in the current Canon strategy: that of an integrated company that, with a very short supply chain, is governing centrally all core competences with the aim to provide exceptional quality beside its strong innovation process. Canon declared multiple times that they do produce their own sensors and ASICS, doing the contrary would be a bold decision that would not be made silently. Being a public company, they would be almost obliged to disclose such a strategy to their investors.
Lastly, and most importantly, for a regulation issue, it seems that Sony cannot take the market share of Canon in sensors production: if Sony had the market share of Canon, than she would be almost the solo producer on the market. Such excessive market share would be investigated by the Antitrust and broken out in a couple of quarters at most. You know that it is not allowed for a company to gain excessive market share in a specific industry, the reason being that there would be to little competition, which would lead to unfair consumer prices and to lacking innovation. There are cases when excessive market shares are unavoidable, when there is a network benefit effect, in all other cases the Antitrust acts, even by broking down large businesses in smaller companies.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

FYI - I'm not saying I 100% believe (and will therefore defend to the death) the rumor I shared. I'm simply saying it is within the realm of possibility and therefore could indeed be true to some extent. It just is what it is. A rumor.

A simple Google search turns up the following hits (I didn't read them all, it's just for the sake of argument that this is a pretty common discussion)....

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/canon-to-use-sony-sensors-on-their-future-dslr-cameras/
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/69457/what-camera-companies-make-their-own-sensors
http://photorumors.com/2015/02/06/the-new-50mp-sensor-inside-the-canon-eos-5ds-camera-is-not-made-by-sony/
http://improvephotography.com/35440/state-of-the-camera-industry-report-how-much-trouble-are-canon-and-nikon-in/
http://petapixel.com/2014/11/03/rumor-canon-use-sony-multi-layer-sensors-two-upcoming-cameras/
https://www.slrlounge.com/canon-use-sony-sensors-upcoming-dslrs-rumor/
http://thenewcamera.com/canon-upcoming-dslrs-may-use-sony-sensor/
http://connect.dpreview.com/post/7228456320/sony-has-40-percent-share-of-image-sensor-market

 

[x-vision]

And while it appears we see some improvements of DR at base ISO in the 80D, it still isn't anywhere near what Sony/Nikon have had for years now.

The 80D sensor seems to perform on the same level as the A6000 sensor from 2014.
Not class leading but not bad either.

As far as I'm concerned, Canon has solved their low-ISO DR problem.

 

[x-vision]

I believe Adobe did this because the 80D is using a Sony sensor.

That is very hard to believe.

Don't get me wrong, I would have been quite pleased, as DR would have been even better.

But all indications are that both the 80D and 1DXII have Canon-made sensors.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

I am looking forward to buying an 80D at the first discount sale price I see, hopefully soon. I was impressed with the 70D and I think the 80D will be a great all around camera.

Personally, I am pretty "Gear Heavy" right now. I am considering selling several higher end bodies now while they are still worth something and buying a used 6D + 80D on sale to use for a while (with lower investment cost) until the 5D4 drops in price after its release later this year. After getting a sale price 5D4 I'll have a couple good FF bodies for events and the 80D for casual fun, video and limited sports. The alternative plan will be to keep a 5D3 (with a larger investment), buy the 80D and then wait and buy a discounted 5D4 down the line. LOL, that's the more likely scenario. 8)

Just a thought! The common sense investor in me is chaffing at all the money I have sitting here in camera gear that is depreciating! It's a familiar struggle for many of us I'm sure!