I have to rethink my camera decision (7D vs 5d Mark II)

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
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lady said:
They said the 7D is allowed, but that we'll do so much landscape and architecture and portrait shooting that I'll be desperate for a full frame within the first year and that I should probably save up for one now.

The only lenses relevant to landscape and architecture work which have no equivalents on crop are the Canon T/S lenses. While I consider T/S to be very useful for landscape, probably 99% of good landscape work produced with small format bodies is produced without T/S lenses. Most people simply do not own one. Among good architecture shots the percentage produced with T/S lenses is higher, but you can do quite a bit without one thanks to PS. Lenses like the Tokina 11-16 f/2.8 (optically equivalent to, if not better than, the Canon 16-35 f/2.8L II) and the Sigma 8-16mm (basically a 13mm FF equivalent) have UWA covered on crop.

Portraits are a non issue. The common argument is that a FF shooter can shoot at f/1.2 and that it's not possible to get that DoF on crop. So what? Nobody actually wants a portrait with a single eyelash in focus and everything else out of focus. At 50mm on crop I'm usually stopping down to f/2 to get sufficient DoF. Fast primes produce stunning portraits on crop. If you asked me to thumb through an old album and pick crop vs. FF portraits, I would have to look up the files and check the EXIF data.

Full frame is required for the 4th quarter (it's a 6 quarter program) because they start some very ultra wide angle stuff.

Wider than 13mm? Hopefully if that's a hard requirement the 5D mkIII will be out by then. I imagine the new sensor will kick both resolution and noise performance up a notch, which will better distinguish it from the 18 MP APS-C sensor. Then you'll have one of the best sports bodies made (7D) and the current top of the line landscape body (5D mkIII).
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
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chase said:
well i guess because FF has better bokeh then APS-C camera for portrait while most professional architectural photographer prefer using large or medium format cameras so putting that to digital perspective means using FF, you'll also have an advantage in wide angle view and less noise...

Bokeh (the quality of the blur of out of focus details) is a function of the lens, not the sensor size. DoF and therefore the amount of blur is related to sensor size, but with crop you will already find yourself stopping down a fast prime to get enough DoF in most portraits.

The reason architecture photographers often use large format is for the tilt and shift controls which are very useful in architecture photography. If you have access to T/S lenses this is one area where FF has a definite advantage over crop because there are no T/S equivalents on crop. You can sort of use the T/S lenses on crop (the built in flash housing can get in the way), but you lose the WA view they afford. If you don't have access to any T/S lenses any way, then the rest of the wide angle world is well covered on crop.

I would love to see Tokina make an 11mm f/4 T/S for crop, but some how I doubt it will happen.
 
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Some random thoughts from me:

A lens collection that works fine on APS-C may not translate well to full frame. Then again, it might. Wides get wider and telephotos get shorter.

A 35mm film body requirement shouldn't be too steep - I picked up a film body (which I still haven't used) for $20 locally - it was a cheap Rebel T2. The metering and autofocus seems like it'd be worse than my T1i though: "7-point high speed, wide area selectable AF with advanced 35- zone metering" on the T2. The continuous mode shooting, while touted by Canon as "the fastest...in its class" is only 3 fps in One Shot AF mode, and only 2.5 in AI Servo! Not a sports camera at all, but it should suit your needs otherwise.

I was going to say look into the Elan 7NE but it looks like this has an identical AF system and merely adds eye tracking. Yet other bodies all seem to have the same 7-point AF, 35-section metering, and 3/2.5 fps constant shooting.

That leaves the EOS-3 and (probably out of the question) the EOS-1V as good choices. The EOS-3 especially seems available at not completely outrageous prices, like $150-ish. Unfortunately, it has been out of production since 2007 so all units you're likely to find will be used, and that becomes a crapshoot. Not sure if Canon services it still. The EOS-1V is around $1700 new. On the plus side, if you get either camera but don't keep it, it should keep its value pretty well (though the EOS-3 seems a much safer bet due to the low price; you could probably lose more than the value of that camera by buying and selling a 1V).

The cynic in me thinks about going the Ken Rockwell route and using a digital camera to meter...bonus points if you could focus a lens on a Canon DSLR body, of course I wouldn't guarantee it would work right (same with metering especially if you had a crop camera) even on a tripod. That would be clumsy in use as well.
 
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Interesting requirements from the school, since like dtaylor said earlier, the T/S lens usage is the only thing that really requires a full-frame camera.

And on top of that, a 35mm camera isn't the best solution for shooting landscapes or architecture anyway. T/S lenses can never beat a larger format camera with decent movements.

You've got the 7D now already (a fine choice, I have one too), but there would have been a cool solution to your problems. The 1Ds MkII.

Cheaper than the 7D (used of course), full-frame and you would have gotten a 1D-body like you've always wanted. I'm going to add one to my arsenal at some point or a 5D MkII if the prices come down from where they are now.

Just my 0.02$
 
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TS lenses don't require a full-frame, though you obviously get a lot more out of the wide ones when you do. You could buy the 24mm and get more coverage in full frame than you get with the 17mm on a crop body, and the slightly faster aperture, lower price, and lack of a bulbous front element are all bonuses.

Speaking of price, the 35mm format tilt-shift lineup seems to include some possibilities that would be rather expensive to equal on medium or view camera sizes, especially when you get to longer lengths i.e. 90mm. Well, I suppose the Hartblei 120mm Superrotator Makro can't be used as a good comparison given its price. The 90mm Canon offering does take a 2x extender though (and seems to work pretty well with it).
 
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L

lady

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I'm back after testing it out for a few days. I got my 17-40mm in the mail.

The f/4L is not enough, however I'm not sure if I should sell it and go with the 17-55mm or just grab a 10-22 for wides and something in the middle later on. I've noticed the lens distortion as well. I got the lens for very cheap, though, so I'll be able to sell it for more than I bought it for.

The camera itself is fantastic. I've had issues with shooting in the shade (forest) and high isos. I shot in the grocery store at 3200 iso and I swear it looked like some kid was taking crayons and stabbing it all over (that's how grainy and pixelated it looked at the iso). I'm not sure if it's the lens or the camera or if I'm doing something wrong.

Any suggestions?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kreebby

under the "practice" gallery would be photos I've taken with the 7D.


dtaylor said:
lady - consider the Tokina 11-16 f/2.8 when you decide to purchase an UWA zoom for the 7D. I'm not knocking the 10-22. It is very good, and I wouldn't fault someone for choosing it for the zoom range. But the Tokina is f/2.8 and is sharper in the edges and corners. I love mine.

Good suggestion--what does it cost?
 
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unfocused

Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
Jul 20, 2010
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In Re: the Tokina 11-16 f2.8. I also own this lens and highly recommend it. Frankly, the zoom range is so narrow that it really doesn't make that much difference with most subjects. But if you want a super-wide lens that is fast, it is great. Street price appears to be around $660 currently.

I took a look at your photostream. My only comment is that you are shooting under some pretty tough conditions in the park/woods (going from direct sunlight to deep shade). Everyone has their own techniques. Personally, if I wanted a bit more saturation, I'd "double process" the shots in Camera Raw by opening them as Smart Objects. Basically, this involves adjusting two or more layers to achieve the exposure you want in a specific area and then applying a mask and using the paintbrush tool to tweak the exposure on the various layers. (It's a Scott Kelby trick and I recommend his books).

Of course, there are a hundred different ways to achieve essentially the same end results in Photoshop and everyone has their own work flows and techniques they like. Personally, I'd go for more saturation by boosting the blacks in Raw and just let some of the shadows go black. But, as I say, everyone has their own preferences.

Main point, though, is that to achieve greater range and saturation under those shooting conditions, you'll need to play with the image in Photoshop. You're not doing anything wrong, you're just playing on the edges of what any camera can achieve.
 
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I thought you said you tested the 17-40 and already had the lens in question and found it superior than the 17-55 in "every way"? F4, for most indoor environments was never claimed to be the best of both worlds... In most indoor environments, F2.8 is ONLY 1 stop more light and may not even be enough. You can pick up cheap primes of 50mm 1.4, 35mm 1.4, etc (Even those would have incredibly shallow DOF and need a tripod to shoot with a lower F stop to get more DOF) Low light situations is a constant battle... you can always get a faster lens but faster lenses have smaller DOF and that can hurt shots as well. Then it's either raise ISO or get more light, hence strobes or flash... those would be more suited for indoors. That being said, it appears that you are shooting handhold, am I correct? For those macro shots which tend to lose light as is due to lighting environments, you almost need to use a tripod. Using a tripod will allow you to knock down the ISO, longer more stable shots, sharper images, etc... You can also get a ring light that goes around the lens to add more light in those macro settings. In the forest you can get a neutral density filter, and lengthen the exposure, lower ISO and get a better shot overall. I dont know if the grocery store will allow a tripod in their store unless you give them a few photos, but that's the route i'd go in. Also bring a gray card with you to run a quick white balance in commercial buildings... florescent lights are nasty to work with. In this Ultrawide area of lenses, distortion will be a fact of life, but it will just vary depending on your lens and camera. The only way to really avoid distortion is TS lenses.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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awinphoto said:
I thought you said you tested the 17-40 and already had the lens in question and found it superior than the 17-55 in "every way"?

Yep...

lady said:
I already own a 17-40mm. After extensive testing and comparison I found it to do significantly better than the more expensive 17-55.

And before:

lady said:
in the 17-40 I didn't notice any barrel distortion what-so-ever. ... I'm not sure why someone would see barrel distortion on that lens.

But now:

lady said:
I've noticed the lens distortion as well.



Ok, enough of wordsmithing.

lady said:
The f/4L is not enough, however I'm not sure if I should sell it and go with the 17-55mm or just grab a 10-22 for wides and something in the middle later on.

I stand by the statement that the 17-40mm is not an ideal lens for use on a crop body, and that for most uses, the 17-55mm is superior. But the question is, in what way is the 17-40mm f/4L 'not enough' for you. Not wide enough? Not fast enough? If it's not wide enough, the 10-22mm is a good choice, as is a Tokina 11-16mm. If it's not fast enough, f/2.8 will likely not be enough of an improvement, and you'll need to start thinking a fast prime like the 50mm f/1.4 that you already have. If you need fast and wide, that's a problem on a crop body (and while there are solutions on FF, they aren't cheap).

The other solution is to add light, via flash, monolights, etc.

lady said:
I've had issues with shooting in the shade (forest) and high isos. I shot in the grocery store at 3200 iso and I swear it looked like some kid was taking crayons and stabbing it all over (that's how grainy and pixelated it looked at the iso). I'm not sure if it's the lens or the camera or if I'm doing something wrong.

Any suggestions?

The lens does not affect ISO noise, except indirectly (i.e. f/4 is narrow, meaning need to boost ISO more often because your lens is slow).

Personally, I don't like the ISO noise of the 7D, and I really try to keep it at ISO 800 or lower. But, sometimes you need to go higher.

Suggestions would be 1) Shoot in RAW and 2) get something better than Canon's DPP for RAW conversions. Personally, I find that DxO Optics Pro does a much better job at NR than DPP or Adobe Camera RAW. DxO also does a great job of removing the barrel distortion you're now noticing, without sacrificing sharpness. If you want to stick with Adobe, there are plugins like Noise Ninja and Topaz Denoise that will help, and are also superior to DPP.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
Suggestions would be 1) Shoot in RAW and 2) get something better than Canon's DPP for RAW conversions. Personally, I find that DxO Optics Pro does a much better job at NR than DPP or Adobe Camera RAW. DxO also does a great job of removing the barrel distortion you're now noticing, without sacrificing sharpness. If you want to stick with Adobe, there are plugins like Noise Ninja and Topaz Denoise that will help, and are also superior to DPP.

Out of curiosity, has anyone demonstrated a like for like comparison of noise reduction between DPP and some of the programmes you mentioned? Sorry a little off topic
 
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Mar 25, 2011
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Redreflex said:
neuroanatomist said:
Suggestions would be 1) Shoot in RAW and 2) get something better than Canon's DPP for RAW conversions. Personally, I find that DxO Optics Pro does a much better job at NR than DPP or Adobe Camera RAW. DxO also does a great job of removing the barrel distortion you're now noticing, without sacrificing sharpness. If you want to stick with Adobe, there are plugins like Noise Ninja and Topaz Denoise that will help, and are also superior to DPP.

Out of curiosity, has anyone demonstrated a like for like comparison of noise reduction between DPP and some of the programmes you mentioned? Sorry a little off topic

I haven't seen any. The thing with noise reduction, is that one of the versiona may be superior on a particular image, while on a different image, something else works better.

Some of the NR software allows you to use layers, so that you can use heavy nr on areas that lack detail and go lighter where you need to retain detail.

Its not simply which is best, but which works better for what you do. Lightroom 3 really improved their noise reduction, and for general use, its one of the best. LR2 was not really that good at NR.

You will see lots who prefer one over the other and declare theirs to be the best. For them, it is.

Here is one reasonably recent comparison, but its over a year old and vastly out of date, I believe it reviews LR2, and not the vastly improved LR3. NR is a moving target and they are all improving.

http://www.prophotoshow.net/2009/02/26/noise-reduction-shootout-straight-dope-comparisonreview/
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
Redreflex said:
neuroanatomist said:
Suggestions would be 1) Shoot in RAW and 2) get something better than Canon's DPP for RAW conversions. Personally, I find that DxO Optics Pro does a much better job at NR than DPP or Adobe Camera RAW. DxO also does a great job of removing the barrel distortion you're now noticing, without sacrificing sharpness. If you want to stick with Adobe, there are plugins like Noise Ninja and Topaz Denoise that will help, and are also superior to DPP.

Out of curiosity, has anyone demonstrated a like for like comparison of noise reduction between DPP and some of the programmes you mentioned? Sorry a little off topic

I haven't seen any. The thing with noise reduction, is that one of the versiona may be superior on a particular image, while on a different image, something else works better.

Some of the NR software allows you to use layers, so that you can use heavy nr on areas that lack detail and go lighter where you need to retain detail.

Its not simply which is best, but which works better for what you do. Lightroom 3 really improved their noise reduction, and for general use, its one of the best. LR2 was not really that good at NR.

You will see lots who prefer one over the other and declare theirs to be the best. For them, it is.

Here is one reasonably recent comparison, but its over a year old and vastly out of date, I believe it reviews LR2, and not the vastly improved LR3. NR is a moving target and they are all improving.

http://www.prophotoshow.net/2009/02/26/noise-reduction-shootout-straight-dope-comparisonreview/

Thank you. Interesting. I do have more questions on post-processing in general... actually... I think I'll start a new thread since I'm about to take this way off topic!
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,805
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lady said:
The camera itself is fantastic. I've had issues with shooting in the shade (forest) and high isos. I shot in the grocery store at 3200 iso and I swear it looked like some kid was taking crayons and stabbing it all over (that's how grainy and pixelated it looked at the iso). I'm not sure if it's the lens or the camera or if I'm doing something wrong.

I don't see the grocery store photo in your Flickr stream. Seeing an ISO 3200 example which you think is bad would help because we can see if it's underexposed.

Typically when people complain about high ISO images from 15-18 MP crop bodies they are either a) underexposing the image, or b) spending way too much time pixel peeping. Viewing a 7D image at 100% on a typical monitor is like viewing a 60" print at arm's length or less. It is not necessarily a good indicator of what a print will look like.

I've produced 8x10 and 11x14 prints from ISO 3200 7D shots that have tighter and more pleasing noise than the grain found in ISO 160 35mm portrait films. And I didn't do anything special like layering the image to allow greater NR on low detail areas. I just simply applied a touch of NR, did my other normal processing, and printed. Spending too much time pixel peeping can lead to processing mistakes such as heavy handed NR which results in a plastic look when printed, so be careful with the pixel peeping.

Having said that, the 7D has very little underexposure tolerance at high ISO. Make sure you nail your exposures when shooting in low light.
 
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I've been reading for a while (mainly to keep up with what might happen in the near future), but I felt inclined to make some comments on noise with the 7D. The first comment, is that even at ISO3200, the level of noise is much less than the grain that would have been seen on old ASA 400 film. It is also much easier to deal with than previous Canon cameras (such as the 40D), as you don't get the banding and it is much more even. That said, I tend not to go higher than ISO 1600. If I need to go higher (or if I don't need the frame rate), then I switch to the 5d MkII. However, noise is variable. Some scenes, ISO 1600 is perfectly fine, while in others it results in disturbing levels of noise. Essentially, it depends on how many shadow areas there are and whether those shadow areas are part of the subject. If you have a textured OOF background, then it tends to hide the noise somewhat too, without losing much of the fine detail, while a smooth background will make it more evident. In fact, it was only after using the 7D for some time, that I realised that part of the problem is the resolution, almost as if it is finding some sort of texture that wouldn't have been seen with lower resolution cameras. Often, the out of focus areas have a speckled appearance that isn't like noise seen in other cameras I've used, probably because it is more luminance noise than chroma, which is easily removed with a low setting in Lightroom 3.
The biggest disadvantage I have found with the 7D, is softening at narrow apertures, due to the diffraction limited affects, resulting from the small pixel size. In fact, that was the reason I ended up getting the 5D MkII for my landscape work. Of course, then I ended up using that camera for macros too, as I found it easier to focus manually, plus the images were clearner overall.
As for the 17-40. Yes, it does distort a lot, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many wide-angle zooms (which is what is was designed as after all, even if it isn't that much of a wide-angle on a crop body) suffer to a greater or lesser degree from this. The trick is to make creative use of that distortion and pick and choose what subjects you use it for and how you angle the camera. If you keep the sensor parallel to the subject, then the distortion is less noticeable for many subjects and is also more easily corrected in post. The distortion is really handy for accentuating converging verticals with tall symmetrical buildings and for giving the appearance of curvature of the earth in certain landscapes and seascapes. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it does give you something different to what everyone else is doing.
Essentially, photography is always a compromise, whatever tools you use, you simply have to explore the weaknesses and strengths of each piece of equipment and work around them. For example, as Neuroanatamist has said, the 5D is weak at focus tracking, but good at focusing in low light and producing low noise (relative to virtually any camera except the D3s and possibly the original D3). For that reason, I usually use the 7D for wildlife, but when I was photographing roding woodcocks after sunset, I used the 5D in single shot mode for optimal focusing and as low noise as possible (at least for the equipment available to me). Working around the limitations (and spending more nights attempting it), I was able to get similar quality shots to a pro wildlife photographer on his D3s, I just had to apply a bit more noise reduction at ISO3200 than he would have needed.
 
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dtaylor said:
Typically when people complain about high ISO images from 15-18 MP crop bodies they are either a) underexposing the image, or b) spending way too much time pixel peeping. Viewing a 7D image at 100% on a typical monitor is like viewing a 60" print at arm's length or less. It is not necessarily a good indicator of what a print will look like.

Having said that, the 7D has very little underexposure tolerance at high ISO. Make sure you nail your exposures when shooting in low light.

That's actually a point I meant to make in my reply, but got carried away. For any camera near it's limits, you really need to nail the exposure to get the least amount of noise possible.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
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Kernuak said:
The biggest disadvantage I have found with the 7D, is softening at narrow apertures, due to the diffraction limited affects, resulting from the small pixel size. In fact, that was the reason I ended up getting the 5D MkII for my landscape work.

You don't need and shouldn't be using such narrow apertures on crop for landscape shots. Remember that for an identical FoV crop has 1.6x more DoF, so you don't need to stop down as much. In fact, for a given FoV and DoF diffraction does not impact any format more than the others. This is true for everything from 4/3rds to LF.

On any format it is beneficial to know and use hyperfocal distances. A typical 35mm shooter might choose f/16 for a landscape. A crop shooter might use f/11 in that instance. But a hyperfocal crop shooter might end up with f/8 or even f/5.6. He would get more and sharper fine detail than either of the other two yet still have sufficient DoF.
 
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L

lady

Guest
awinphoto said:
I thought you said you tested the 17-40 and already had the lens in question and found it superior than the 17-55 in "every way"? F4, for most indoor environments was never claimed to be the best of both worlds... In most indoor environments, F2.8 is ONLY 1 stop more light and may not even be enough. You can pick up cheap primes of 50mm 1.4, 35mm 1.4, etc (Even those would have incredibly shallow DOF and need a tripod to shoot with a lower F stop to get more DOF) Low light situations is a constant battle... you can always get a faster lens but faster lenses have smaller DOF and that can hurt shots as well. Then it's either raise ISO or get more light, hence strobes or flash... those would be more suited for indoors. That being said, it appears that you are shooting handhold, am I correct? For those macro shots which tend to lose light as is due to lighting environments, you almost need to use a tripod. Using a tripod will allow you to knock down the ISO, longer more stable shots, sharper images, etc... You can also get a ring light that goes around the lens to add more light in those macro settings. In the forest you can get a neutral density filter, and lengthen the exposure, lower ISO and get a better shot overall. I dont know if the grocery store will allow a tripod in their store unless you give them a few photos, but that's the route i'd go in. Also bring a gray card with you to run a quick white balance in commercial buildings... florescent lights are nasty to work with. In this Ultrawide area of lenses, distortion will be a fact of life, but it will just vary depending on your lens and camera. The only way to really avoid distortion is TS lenses.

It was better in every way and I had no noticed any lens distortion during my testing. It wasn't until I was in a more linear environment (my house) that I noticed it. However, I paid a lot less for the 17-40mm than the I would have for the 17-55mm. I paid $600 for it which is about half the price. It's ridiculous to say I'm foolish for not paying twice the price that did not compete. The aperture is not something I tested with the lens when I compared the two, I was in a controlled lighting environment. On top of that, I already own a f/1.4 50mm which I mentioned several pages ago. The 2.8 is enough for indoors for me. No need to act condescending and rude about it, dude.

As for your other suggestions, they are very good and I'll consider trying them. I wish I could afford TS lenses, but that's for later on.


dtaylor said:
lady said:
The camera itself is fantastic. I've had issues with shooting in the shade (forest) and high isos. I shot in the grocery store at 3200 iso and I swear it looked like some kid was taking crayons and stabbing it all over (that's how grainy and pixelated it looked at the iso). I'm not sure if it's the lens or the camera or if I'm doing something wrong.

I don't see the grocery store photo in your Flickr stream. Seeing an ISO 3200 example which you think is bad would help because we can see if it's underexposed.

Typically when people complain about high ISO images from 15-18 MP crop bodies they are either a) underexposing the image, or b) spending way too much time pixel peeping. Viewing a 7D image at 100% on a typical monitor is like viewing a 60" print at arm's length or less. It is not necessarily a good indicator of what a print will look like.

I've produced 8x10 and 11x14 prints from ISO 3200 7D shots that have tighter and more pleasing noise than the grain found in ISO 160 35mm portrait films. And I didn't do anything special like layering the image to allow greater NR on low detail areas. I just simply applied a touch of NR, did my other normal processing, and printed. Spending too much time pixel peeping can lead to processing mistakes such as heavy handed NR which results in a plastic look when printed, so be careful with the pixel peeping.

Having said that, the 7D has very little underexposure tolerance at high ISO. Make sure you nail your exposures when shooting in low light.

I had the ISO set to auto. That usually works well out doors, but indoors it can be a bit temperamental. I may have needed a tripod.

However, the results I got were similar to the review test (here) 12800 ISO. It was pretty bad. It looked like this, though honestly I'd complain if it was equal to the 3200 too. I do think I didn't have the shutter slow enough. It just shocked me to see that much noise.

Can7D_JPEG_noise_12800iso.jpg
 
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