Is canon going to come back?

[Simba]

We are talking about qualities of products in forums, and that's why we are here. Market share is determined by many factors, and that's why Rebel outsold 5D, not because Rebel is better than 5D.

You were comparing the 5DII to the D700, not to a camera costing 1/5 as much (at least, you weren't to begin with, and I don't see your point in doing so now, except perhaps as a concession to the main point). I think you're missing the point. You may post on a forum that the D4 is the best camera in the world, but unless you use your fingers to hand your money to a vendor and buy one, your posted opinion isn't worth the 2 cents worth of electricity you wasted posting it. In any case, the people who post their opinions on forums represent a very small fraction of real buyers. It's the opinions of those buyers that matter, in aggregate, and the 5DII was the clear winner over the D700 in that arena.

Subjective and bias.

 

[Loswr]

Subjective and bias.

Yes, now you're getting the point. Opinions on Internet forums - this forum and others, your opinions and mine - are just that: subjective and biased. That's why I brought up sales figures, which are objective. One person may fervently believe that Nikon is better than Canon, while another rabidly believes the opposite. But in aggregate, the data on dSLR market share indicate that more people have bought Canon dSLRs than Nikon dSLRs, consistently for the past several years. Is Canon better? That's subjective. But the fact that Canon has outsold Nikon is an objective fact. I know what conclusion I draw from that fact...

 

[witeken]

Ok then because of the rebels, but does that matter? They are resting now because they sold so much. Look at the crop Bodys, all have the same 4 year old sensor.

If you would open your eyes you would see that they are behind.

Yep, that same old 4 year old sensor is hurting their sales. They are behind. Open your eyes and look at the list below. Now...who's behind? : Any Nikon bodies in the top 5? Do your eyes see the D800's on that list? It's way down at #25, with 16 Canon entries ahead of it. Maybe when you buy one, that'll be enough to push it all the way up to #24...a spot currently held by the totally outmoded, no-longer-competitive Canon 5D Mark II.

I think he means Canon is behind with their (crop sensor) technology, not the amount of sales. Canon's crop bodies are far behind of Nikon's . They cost a lot more and have an old sensor .

 

[leolol]

I never meant that they are behind sales whise. But technology whise.

 

[Loswr]

I think he means Canon is behind with their (crop sensor) technology,

Ahhhh. Next time I'm in the market for a naked piece of silicon imaged as a CMOS image sensor, I'll keep that in mind. Usually, though, I prefer to buy cameras, not sensors. All that other technology wrapped around the sensor is sort of important to me.

I never meant that they are behind sales whise. But technology whise.

For anyone who believes technology trumps sales, how many Betamax video tapes did you buy? That was a demonstrably better technology than VHS. Who won?

And with that blanket 'Canon is behind' statement, you've brought us right back to where the thread started. Troll-ville.

 

[leolol]

So what do they make better outside the af department?

 

[Kernuak]

And if the 14-24 struggles with the d800 then imagen the 16-35 with a rumored 46MP Body. lol

It's my opinion that Canon have been concentrating more on updating old lenses before adding a high MP camera body top their line-up for that reason. As it stands, you're probably looking at the super-teles, the 70-200 f/2.8 MkII and the new 24-70 MkII, plus a few others (mostly primes) that can actually cope with a high resolution sensor in Canon's line-up. To my mind, they have got it the right way around, although I still wouldn't get it, as I don't want to have to change half of my lenses to get the best out of a high MP sensor, as out of my current lenses, probably only three at best, would stand a half-decent chance of being a good match.

 

[jondave]

So what do they make better outside the af department?

Cameras.

Haven't you decided what to buy? Why do you still keep asking?

 

[Rocky]

I never meant that they are behind sales whise. But technology whise.

DSLR is a system. So you need to look at is as system: lens performance, color redition, AF accuracy and speed, ergonomics etc. You can not just single out pixel count, noise level and say who is more advance in technoloy. Have you ever compare the facial color between Canon and Nikon with the same level of camera under the same condition? Have you compare the handling of Canon and Nikon with the same level of cameras?? If you have done them, you will understand why the sales of Canon is better than the Nikon.

 

[RVB]

So what do they make better outside the af department?

I shoot with both systems so I'm no fanboi.. canon makes some amazing glass,the new flash system is excellent too.. the supertele's are the best around....

 

[Loswr]

So what do they make better outside the af department?

Oh, let's see...faster frame rates, better metering (1D X vs. D4), a radio-triggered flash system, better real-world high ISO performance...I could go on, but I'm growing bored with feeding this particular troll.

DSLR is a system. So you need to look at is as system: lens performance, color redition, AF accuracy and speed, ergonomics etc. You can not just single out pixel count, noise level and say who is more advance in technoloy.

Well, of course you can. I mean, if that's not what the Internet is for, then what good is it?!? :

 

[leolol]

I am all for what you say that canon makes better but you may have read what i shoot. And i dont need any of that. And no i havent decided what to buy yet.

So if you guys think so good of canon then i am sure you can give me some stuff they make better for what i shoot. Or not?

 

[jondave]

I am all for what you say that canon makes better but you may have read what i shoot. And i dont need any of that. And no i havent decided what to buy yet.

So if you guys think so good of canon then i am sure you can give me some stuff they make better for what i shoot. Or not?

No, it seems you've already decided even before you asked your question.

Canon isn't coming back from wherever you think they are. Just go get your Nikon and start doing what a real photographer does.

 

[RLPhoto]

Ok AF is fantastic but it isnt a revolution! We had great AF systems before, but we never had 36Mp in a FF Body.

Ok then because of the rebels, but does that matter? They are resting now because they sold so much. Look at the crop Bodys, all have the same 4 year old sensor.

If you would open your eyes you would see that they are behind. d4 outperforms the 1dx in high iso, and autofocous is good in both. d800 is the best studio camera on the market, 1ds3 isnt what i once was, 5d2 and 5d3 cant compete here either. The 5d3 is the best press camera out there for sure. But i dont need somethign like that.

Lol. 1Dx >>>>>> D4 all day everyday! Many pros already agree on this conclusion.

The d800 is the best 35mm studio camera. The 5D3 is the best 35mm multi-media camera.

I don't understand what the argument is here? Two tools for different fools.

 

[pwp]

So i´m in the market for a full frame camera right now. I only have FF lenses for EF mount, so switching would at least mean the loss of a lens or two (money reasons).
Right now canon is far behind others. Or lets just say it: Nikon.

The d800 is 2300€ the 5d3 is 2900€ and the Nikon just is the superior camera. If you downsize the image even high iso is awesome, af is good etc. It´s just a really good body and much more in the price range of a 6d.

I want to stick with canon but if they are going to make their first competitive body in like 5 years i really have to consider switching....

OMG is this thread still going?
Buy a horse.

-PW

 

[crasher8]

I think when you know (multiple bodies) what isn't for you you may just have narrowed down the playing field to know what's left and that makes it easy to pick just what is for you, especially when you're so knowledgable and opinionated.

 

[Radiating]

So i´m in the market for a full frame camera right now. I only have FF lenses for EF mount, so switching would at least mean the loss of a lens or two (money reasons).
Right now canon is far behind others. Or lets just say it: Nikon.

The d800 is 2300€ the 5d3 is 2900€ and the Nikon just is the superior camera. If you downsize the image even high iso is awesome, af is good etc. It´s just a really good body and much more in the price range of a 6d.

I want to stick with canon but if they are going to make their first competitive body in like 5 years i really have to consider switching....

The d800 is in no way shape or form the clear superior camera. I compared every aspect of each camera while consulting for a well known photography equipment testing website:

5D3 has 0.5 stops more ISO which is a huge difference, half of that is from being under rated ISO wise (meaning when both are shooting at 800 ISO the 5D3 is ACTUALLY shooting at 1000 effective ISO) and the other half is due to better response to noise reduction algorithms.

5D3 has 50% more FPS (though only without the grip)

5D3 has better autofocus (though this will be hotly debated, and they are close)

5D3 has SRAW

D800 has crop mode.

D800 has better dynamic range, which evens out at normal ISO, and the 5D3 actually has better dynamic range at high ISO

D800 has more accurate color (although it's worth nothing Canon has more traditionally "pleasing" color out of the box as a result of it's inaccurate color, before editing)


Both have 100% identical indistinguishable resolution. What defines the resolution, quite frankly, is the optics more than the sensor. This has been proven by numerous sources, zoom lenses tend to be limited to just over 21 megapixels across 90% of their imaging area off the center axis, and there is no meaningful difference between a zoom lens image captured with the D800 or 5 Mark III in resolution, even when upscaling 5D Mark III images to 36 megapixels and comparing with the same zoom lens.

Prime lenses will sometimes but infrequently show a difference in resolution, but only the best prime lenses in the world (EXcluding the vast majority of Zeiss lenses even due to lacking resolution). And ONLY images with primes between f/4.0 and f/8.0 will show any difference in resolution, and then only at lower ISO (you can read more about how ISO affects resolution negatively elsewhere, or simply look at the lensrentals tests)

So in effect there is only a marginal difference in system resolution (and it's nowhere near 36 megapixels vs 22.3, more like around 22.3 vs 27 max)

My personal conclusion is simply put that the Nikon D800 slightly edges out the Canon in a studio or landscape setting (and Nikon's lenses back this up) and Canon's 5D Mark III slightly edges out the Nikon in documentary usage. (and Canon's lenses back this up).

Overall I've found both cameras to be more similar than they are different, and there is little compelling reason to go with either unless you really need something oddly specific. Nikon's lenses and grips are expensive so the price for a typical full kit is practically identical.

Here are a few very compelling lenses to go with either manufacturer:

D800 + 14-24mm 2.8 + 35mm 1.4 AF-S + 50mm 1.4 AF-S + 105mm & 135mm DC lenses + 28-300mm FX compact superzoom


(product, studio and full frame compact superzoom)

5D Mark III + 35mm f/2.0 IS + 50mm 1.2 + 85mm 1.2 + 24-70mm 2.8 Mk II + 70-200mm f/2.8 Mk II IS + 24-105mm f/4.0 IS + 200mm f/2.0 IS + 200-400mm f/4.0 IS TC + 24-70mm f/4.0 IS

(reportage, wedding and portrait, and super low light photography)

 

[PackLight]

I have problems with categorical responses about for example AF, it should take a month to find out pro and cons regarding 1dx and d4 AF
One criterion is to see how the AF works in really bad/low light
Morten has tried them both side by side in ugly conditions and low light, It is now clear to me that the autofocus in my EOS 1DX is way behind the one in my Nikon D4 in very low light.
http://mortenhilmer.com/2012/photo-gear/working-with-d4-and-eos-1dx-autofocus-in-very-low-light/

as usual there are different settings etc and we need soon a Master education in AF settings

Really, does the D800 have the D4 AF system.

I have a hard time giving credibility to an article about low light abilities, and the lens they are testing is a slow 70-300mm 4-5.6L. If this person primarily does low light why are they using such a slow lens?

Did you notice which Nikon lens he was using?

 

[PackLight]

you can read his answers here (Hilmer)) http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50378831 regarding similar issues that you ask about, lens settings etc.

And my answer about AF tests you can read above

He was given the 70-300mm L and a 600mm by Canon to test. You did notice his comments about the weight of the new 600mm Canon. I am sure after a few months of carrying it versus the 11 pound Nikon he will have an opinion.

Also, he posted this on November 29th;
"Well while it is really not interesting for most of you guys what camera I use, I have got quite a few questions about that, so let me do it very shot.
I would never make a decision based on reviews and other photographers opinions – therefore I want to use the system for several months so I can be perfectly familiar with the handling and the pros and cons. I am privileged to have the option to try the different lenses on the camera witch is a great help."

So I think you need to give him a couple more months to formulate an opinion, since he is just starting his comparison.

http://mortenhilmer.com/2012/photo-gear/working-with-the-nikon-d4-and-the-canon-eos-1dx/

 

[PackLight]

The D800's AF system is, in all the important ways, the same the D4. Not all ways, though; Nikon has kept a few AF-related features exclusive to the higher-priced model. The ones we're aware of are:
The D4 can optionally show all the active points in a Dynamic AF grouping. If, for example, the camera is set to 9-point, the main point in the group will appear as a red square, while eight small red dots will light up around it. The D800 doesn't do this, it will light up just the main point.

AF-C Priority Selection, the Custom Setting that dictates whether priority will be given to release or focus when tracking a subject, has four options in the D4: Focus, Release, Release + Focus and Focus + Release. The D800 has only the first three (making it the same as the D700).

The D4 can be set so the active focus point will automatically change with the orientation of the camera. The D800 lacks this ability.

A friend of mine owns a D800. He asked me a while back about keeper rate and we started comparing. My keeper rate out of my 1D IV is well over 90%. His average is about 30%. When I say keeper I mean pictures in focus that if the framing or composition would have been right they had the technical aspects he or I would require.

Real world comparison, real world test and my opinions were from comparisons.