Lens dilemma- 300mm f2.8 with tc or 500mm f4L MkI

[AlanF]

Well, I'm a human and I got used to it pretty quickly! I know the first few shots had me wondering what I had bought but now it seems acceptable. However, I wouldn't feel that way in a quiet church and would likely use my 6D. Birds seem pretty accommodating. Of course if we're talking 800mm, the distance helps.

Jack

Well, you do specialise in woodpeckers, and they sound like a 1DX. It probably acts as a bird call to them.

 

[Mikehit]

It probably acts as a bird call to them.

Hopefully not in mating season....

 

[Jack Douglas]

Well, I'm a human and I got used to it pretty quickly! I know the first few shots had me wondering what I had bought but now it seems acceptable. However, I wouldn't feel that way in a quiet church and would likely use my 6D. Birds seem pretty accommodating. Of course if we're talking 800mm, the distance helps.

Jack

Well, you do specialise in woodpeckers, and they sound like a 1DX. It probably acts as a bird call to them.

A couple or so years ago before I had been seeing the Pileated woodpeckers I heard this pounding that sounded like the neighbour was building a shed but since there is bush between us I couldn't see. As I listened I thought that really is quite the style of pounding a nail that's new to me. Shortly I saw the guy in the tree and now two years later we're buddies.

Here he is from yesterday at -20C on a windy day just meditating.

I'm afraid the 1DX2 doesn't sound like a woodpecker, at least not a Canadian variety!


Jack

 

[Deleted member 91053]

It is the startled expressions of humans that concerns me (a tiny bit) when you let rip with a 1DX1/2. They then seem to move away or want to examine your gear!

I was watching a news report recently where a politician was virtually inaudible over the clattering cameras. There is a good side to noisy cameras

 

[Vern]

I really wish the 1DX II had a truly silent shutter, then I would go for Jack's combo for walking bird shots and have a great setup for general large mammal stalking. 1DX II would be preferable for low light, fps and other features over the 5DSR. Unfortunately, my experience with my 1DX shutter is that, while birds will tolerate it, deer, foxes, etc will not and after one shot all you see is an empty frame.
We each have our special preferences, but it does help a lot to hear how others manage the trade-offs.

I don't have the 1DX2, I use the 1DX - which is also remarkably noisy!

I too would like a better silent shutter mode, but for humans not wildlife. With the exception of a fairly close in Vixen - who merely gave me a dirty look - my noisy camera has been completely ignored by wildlife.

With the racket that my camera makes I was expecting problems but, so far, I haven't encountered them. The local deer simply ignore it, but if I twitch they are gone! Birds at 6 to 10 meters couldn't care less. However foxes seem to prefer single shot to machine gun mode. They don't run off but they don't seem to like it - this is exactly the same with my (MUCH quieter) 7D2 as well. Perhaps Foxes just don't like the rapid slap slap of the mirror, but are quite happy with the odd clatter now and again? Who knows.

Despite my initial reservations the racket that the 1DX makes has yet to prove a significant issue - except with humans!

Perhaps your local wildlife is more skittish?

Interesting - thanks for the reply, John.

I tried my 1DX 1 a few times and neither deer nor a fox stayed in place, but that was only 1-2 deer and 1 fox, so not exactly a scientific study. I usually set-up my blind on a ~300 acre nature preserve where hunting is not allowed, but it abuts army corps land around a local reservoir that is highly hunted. I assumed that most of the critters have a bad association b/t mechanical clicks and whizzing bullets, but I could give it another try. Problem is, I don't get out often enough and risking missing the perfect shot of a big buck due to the shutter makes me paranoid. I doubt younger deer or the females that feed in my front yard would care, but the antlered bucks are more wary.

Here's a pic of a couple from summer time when the males will tolerate each other and they are a little less skittish. 5DMKIII, ISO 2000, 300 2.8II + 1.4XIII, f4, 1/320, shutter set to silent continuous. Would love to get better shots of these guys in autumn. I was walking on a trail where they were used to seeing people. Never seen them there during the rut/hunting season.

Maybe I'll try the 1DX 1 on the 600II from my blind over the holidays.

 

[Vern]

Well, I'm a human and I got used to it pretty quickly! I know the first few shots had me wondering what I had bought but now it seems acceptable. However, I wouldn't feel that way in a quiet church and would likely use my 6D. Birds seem pretty accommodating. Of course if we're talking 800mm, the distance helps.

Jack

Well, you do specialise in woodpeckers, and they sound like a 1DX. It probably acts as a bird call to them.

A couple or so years ago before I had been seeing the Pileated woodpeckers I heard this pounding that sounded like the neighbour was building a shed but since there is bush between us I couldn't see. As I listened I thought that really is quite the style of pounding a nail that's new to me. Shortly I saw the guy in the tree and now two years later we're buddies.

Here he is from yesterday at -20C on a windy day just meditating.

I'm afraid the 1DX2 doesn't sound like a woodpecker, at least not a Canadian variety!


Jack

Nice shot of the pileated, Jack. I've loved your previous ones too. I only see them in the summer time near my place and have failed to get a decent picture due to leaves etc. I need to follow-up on (I think I saw this here) your advice of how to set-up a feeder for them.

 

[Jack Douglas]

It is the startled expressions of humans that concerns me (a tiny bit) when you let rip with a 1DX1/2. They then seem to move away or want to examine your gear!

I was watching a news report recently where a politician was virtually inaudible over the clattering cameras. There is a good side to noisy cameras

I read CR for the humour!

Jack

 

[Jack Douglas]

I really wish the 1DX II had a truly silent shutter, then I would go for Jack's combo for walking bird shots and have a great setup for general large mammal stalking. 1DX II would be preferable for low light, fps and other features over the 5DSR. Unfortunately, my experience with my 1DX shutter is that, while birds will tolerate it, deer, foxes, etc will not and after one shot all you see is an empty frame.
We each have our special preferences, but it does help a lot to hear how others manage the trade-offs.

I don't have the 1DX2, I use the 1DX - which is also remarkably noisy!

I too would like a better silent shutter mode, but for humans not wildlife. With the exception of a fairly close in Vixen - who merely gave me a dirty look - my noisy camera has been completely ignored by wildlife.

With the racket that my camera makes I was expecting problems but, so far, I haven't encountered them. The local deer simply ignore it, but if I twitch they are gone! Birds at 6 to 10 meters couldn't care less. However foxes seem to prefer single shot to machine gun mode. They don't run off but they don't seem to like it - this is exactly the same with my (MUCH quieter) 7D2 as well. Perhaps Foxes just don't like the rapid slap slap of the mirror, but are quite happy with the odd clatter now and again? Who knows.

Despite my initial reservations the racket that the 1DX makes has yet to prove a significant issue - except with humans!

Perhaps your local wildlife is more skittish?

Interesting - thanks for the reply, John.

I tried my 1DX 1 a few times and neither deer nor a fox stayed in place, but that was only 1-2 deer and 1 fox, so not exactly a scientific study. I usually set-up my blind on a ~300 acre nature preserve where hunting is not allowed, but it abuts army corps land around a local reservoir that is highly hunted. I assumed that most of the critters have a bad association b/t mechanical clicks and whizzing bullets, but I could give it another try. Problem is, I don't get out often enough and risking missing the perfect shot of a big buck due to the shutter makes me paranoid. I doubt younger deer or the females that feed in my front yard would care, but the antlered bucks are more wary.

Here's a pic of a couple from summer time when the males will tolerate each other and they are a little less skittish. 5DMKIII, ISO 2000, 300 2.8II + 1.4XIII, f4, 1/320, shutter set to silent continuous. Would love to get better shots of these guys in autumn. I was walking on a trail where they were used to seeing people. Never seen them there during the rut/hunting season.

Maybe I'll try the 1DX 1 on the 600II from my blind over the holidays.

Lovely shot Vern. It prompted a thought in my head relative to the moose that sometimes wander into my yard. I was approaching this guy who was determined to destroy my poor little mountain ash remnant and was at most 25 feet away and don't doubt I could have gotten closer except I deemed it unwise. He'd just broken the tree after rubbing his antlers/head for a few minutes and seems quite annoyed. A shutter of any description was not going deter him from sampling all the vegetation! Pre-Canon shot - User and camera both subpar, apologies.

Jack

 

[AlanF]

Well, I'm a human and I got used to it pretty quickly! I know the first few shots had me wondering what I had bought but now it seems acceptable. However, I wouldn't feel that way in a quiet church and would likely use my 6D. Birds seem pretty accommodating. Of course if we're talking 800mm, the distance helps.

Jack

Well, you do specialise in woodpeckers, and they sound like a 1DX. It probably acts as a bird call to them.

A couple or so years ago before I had been seeing the Pileated woodpeckers I heard this pounding that sounded like the neighbour was building a shed but since there is bush between us I couldn't see. As I listened I thought that really is quite the style of pounding a nail that's new to me. Shortly I saw the guy in the tree and now two years later we're buddies.

Here he is from yesterday at -20C on a windy day just meditating.

I'm afraid the 1DX2 doesn't sound like a woodpecker, at least not a Canadian variety!


Jack

Their sound depends on the resonance qualities of the wood they drum.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

I really wish the 1DX II had a truly silent shutter, then I would go for Jack's combo for walking bird shots and have a great setup for general large mammal stalking. 1DX II would be preferable for low light, fps and other features over the 5DSR. Unfortunately, my experience with my 1DX shutter is that, while birds will tolerate it, deer, foxes, etc will not and after one shot all you see is an empty frame.
We each have our special preferences, but it does help a lot to hear how others manage the trade-offs.

I don't have the 1DX2, I use the 1DX - which is also remarkably noisy!

I too would like a better silent shutter mode, but for humans not wildlife. With the exception of a fairly close in Vixen - who merely gave me a dirty look - my noisy camera has been completely ignored by wildlife.

With the racket that my camera makes I was expecting problems but, so far, I haven't encountered them. The local deer simply ignore it, but if I twitch they are gone! Birds at 6 to 10 meters couldn't care less. However foxes seem to prefer single shot to machine gun mode. They don't run off but they don't seem to like it - this is exactly the same with my (MUCH quieter) 7D2 as well. Perhaps Foxes just don't like the rapid slap slap of the mirror, but are quite happy with the odd clatter now and again? Who knows.

Despite my initial reservations the racket that the 1DX makes has yet to prove a significant issue - except with humans!

Perhaps your local wildlife is more skittish?

Interesting - thanks for the reply, John.

I tried my 1DX 1 a few times and neither deer nor a fox stayed in place, but that was only 1-2 deer and 1 fox, so not exactly a scientific study. I usually set-up my blind on a ~300 acre nature preserve where hunting is not allowed, but it abuts army corps land around a local reservoir that is highly hunted. I assumed that most of the critters have a bad association b/t mechanical clicks and whizzing bullets, but I could give it another try. Problem is, I don't get out often enough and risking missing the perfect shot of a big buck due to the shutter makes me paranoid. I doubt younger deer or the females that feed in my front yard would care, but the antlered bucks are more wary.

Here's a pic of a couple from summer time when the males will tolerate each other and they are a little less skittish. 5DMKIII, ISO 2000, 300 2.8II + 1.4XIII, f4, 1/320, shutter set to silent continuous. Would love to get better shots of these guys in autumn. I was walking on a trail where they were used to seeing people. Never seen them there during the rut/hunting season.

Maybe I'll try the 1DX 1 on the 600II from my blind over the holidays.

This same subject has cropped up elsewhere and opinions seem to be divided. It seems to be critical to some and irrelevant to others. So far it has not been an issue for me but that doesn't mean that this is always the case!

 

[Jack Douglas]

But Alan, that shutter mechanism is supposed to be well damped with very little resonance and it's not made of wood!

On the other hand, my African Grey is making a sound that I believe is meant to copy my camera. ;D

Jack

 

[Deleted member 7828]

Interesting discussion. I've also been seeking more reach but keep putting off the decision...

The 100-400 performs better than I expected, and holds up well even on my 5DSR(!) which is nice. However, 400 isn't enough reach for many birds (on FF) and I find myself wanting a bit more. I thought about both the 400 DO and the 500 f4 II but for the latter, price and particularly weight was a big concern. If the 400 takes TCs well that could be a possible route, but reports of a 200-600 zoom and a new 600mm lens had me pausing (600 would be ideal, looking for something handholdable as I don't want to be bound to tripod).

If price is no object then there might be more to consider. If weight is no object there might be more to consider. If IQ is no object there might be more to consider. If AF speed is no object there might be more to consider. ETC.

Basically, you consider the constraints that you put upon yourself and go from there. For me the 400 DO II was a no brainer once the F8 focus improvements came along. 300 X2 got me shots with the 6D but it was pitiful for AF speed. However the IQ was quite good so it served me for roughly 3 years and taught me that 600 for small birds was good but on the edge - too much cropping that made the IQ marginal.

I reasoned that 800 would bump me over that edge and it has, nicely while being hand-holdable and from Birds as Art etc. I learned that 400 X2 AF with the 1DX2 was excellent and exceeded the 5D4 so that coupled with fps tipped me towards the 1DX2. Of course I had to compromise on the 30 MP but some 1DX2 features pushed me in its direction and I'm satisfied with the compromise. When birds are active that little burst of 3-5 shots at 14 fps is addictive and productive.

1DX2 + 400 DO II + 2X III is all the weight my aging body can handle hiking. And that's assuming I stay fit

I doubt that a 600 DO is really going to be that light if you carefully analyze the comparative weight savings relative to existing lenses. The 400 benefited comparatively because F4 became an option over F2.8.

A 600 F5.6 would gain similarly but it won't be produced. A zoom would be nice but it will never be light. Built in converters are nice but they bring size and weight too, which you might not appreciate if shooting native FL. Compromises galore!

Jack

Yes, you're absolutely right...compromises galore indeed. Thanks for the reply.

I think that hypothetical 600 5.6 DO at around the size and weight of the current 400 DO would be ideal for my uses, but of course that won't get made (at least not in the near future). 600 4.0 DO is even better (opening up the option of 800 5.6 with extender!), but fear is that price will be out of reach, and weight may still be on the hefty side. Can they keep the thing under 6 lbs? If so, may be on the bleeding edge of handholdability depending on balance.

 

[tron]

...
1DX2 + 400 DO II + 2X III is all the weight my aging body can handle hiking. And that's assuming I stay fit
...
Jack

Don't be pessimistic. I bet you will happily upgrade from 1DxII to ...1DxIV

There is also another distant future trick: You may exchange your 1DxII for the latest 5D (Mark VI, whatever). That way you will sacrifice fps but you will have a lighter system

But you are right the combination you have is at the limit ... for me too. Actually maybe my limit is a little less heavy. I was walking holding my 400DOII+1.4XII+7DII all the time with no issues. Also I was able to handhold almost continuously (and I mean it because I was in a boat and shooting) for about one hour with no issues. A few days before I tried to do the same with my 500II+7DII. It took me one month to stop feeling my hand as a little tired (So 500II for me is best when in a car)

 

[Jack Douglas]

...
1DX2 + 400 DO II + 2X III is all the weight my aging body can handle hiking. And that's assuming I stay fit
...
Jack

Don't be pessimistic. I bet you will happily upgrade from 1DxII to ...1DxIV

There is also another distant future trick: You may exchange your 1DxII for the latest 5D (Mark VI, whatever). That way you will sacrifice fps but you will have a lighter system

But you are right the combination you have is at the limit ... for me too. Actually maybe my limit is a little less heavy. I was walking holding my 400DOII+1.4XII+7DII all the time with no issues. Also I was able to handhold almost continuously (and I mean it because I was in a boat and shooting) for about one hour with no issues. A few days before I tried to do the same with my 500II+7DII. It took me one month to stop feeling my hand as a little tired (So 500II for me is best when in a car)

Yes, Tron, it's one thing to feel tired from shooting and quite another to have a type of injury due to the weight and length of shoot. So far I just get tired. I appreciate the smaller diameter of the 400. We all know that eventually age catches up with us and in my case my daughter is waiting in case I can't handle it. However, would she really want that weight, that remains to be seen since she hasn't tried it. A 6D sized camera might be the solution.

There is no question in my short time with the camera, the 14 fps is addictive. One shot is now two or three with slightly different head angles etc. to choose from or an eye open vs. one closed sometimes. If you have 10 fps it probably isn't as striking but the 6D was 4 1/2.

Jack

 

[Mikehit]

There is no question in my short time with the camera, the 14 fps is addictive. One shot is now two or three with slightly different head angles etc. to choose from or an eye open vs. one closed sometimes. If you have 10 fps it probably isn't as striking but the 6D was 4 1/2.

Jack

1986 - load film, take pictures. Send to the photo lab and get pictures back 2 days after you took them.
2016 - lad 64MB CF card, take 3,000 pictures in a day, spend 3 hours loading them onto the computer, hours sorting through them and end up processing your images 2 days after you took them.

Progress?

;D

 

[Maximilian]

There is no question in my short time with the camera, the 14 fps is addictive. One shot is now two or three with slightly different head angles etc. to choose from or an eye open vs. one closed sometimes. If you have 10 fps it probably isn't as striking but the 6D was 4 1/2.

Jack

1986 - load film, take pictures. Send to the photo lab and get pictures back 2 days after you took them.
2016 - lad 64MB CF card, take 3,000 pictures in a day, spend 3 hours loading them onto the computer, hours sorting through them and end up processing your images 2 days after you took them.

Progress?

;D

;D

Surely no progress in the efficiency of the PP process.
But a huge progress in the freedom how and how many pictures you're going to take.
So I suppose the numbers of pictures taken and discarded is much worse. Relative keeper rate ridiculous
But ...
I expect the absolute keeper rate much higher.

Problem:
Will you keep looking at them next year?

 

[Jack Douglas]

...... or don't even look at them for a year or shoot in summer, process in Alberta winter!

Jack

 

[Mikehit]

...... or don't even look at them for a year or shoot in summer, process in Alberta winter!

Jack

Ah, the rolls of film with Christmas at both ends and a wedding in the middle.

 

[Jack Douglas]

There is no question in my short time with the camera, the 14 fps is addictive. One shot is now two or three with slightly different head angles etc. to choose from or an eye open vs. one closed sometimes. If you have 10 fps it probably isn't as striking but the 6D was 4 1/2.

Jack

1986 - load film, take pictures. Send to the photo lab and get pictures back 2 days after you took them.
2016 - lad 64MB CF card, take 3,000 pictures in a day, spend 3 hours loading them onto the computer, hours sorting through them and end up processing your images 2 days after you took them.

Progress?

;D

;D

Surely no progress in the efficiency of the PP process.
But a huge progress in the freedom how and how many pictures you're going to take.
So I suppose the numbers of pictures taken and discarded is much worse. Relative keeper rate ridiculous
But ...
I expect the absolute keeper rate much higher.

Problem:
Will you keep looking at them next year?

The best example I have personally was when 3 very young fox siblings entered my property from the bush to play on the grass. They were fighting, jumping, rolling and I had 4 1/2 fps. As I looked at the many nice shots I couldn't help but visualize what was between those shots!! Not to mention the 6D AF and 600 rather than 800 that I have now.

Jack

 

[tron]

Jack, 4.5 fps or not the timing of the last one couldn't be better!