Lighting setup for studio portraits

[sagittariansrock]

I have three 600EX-RTs, and I recently received a Wafer 100 softbox for free from a very generous CR member. He included a Speedotron adapter. Now I am trying to decide whether I should get a Speedlite adapter (Bower + L bracket thingy) and use one Speedlite in it, or should I either get a Speedotron or get a Alienbee 800 and the corresponding adapter? If I should get a monolight then what are the pros and cons of getting a Speedotron? I see a bunch of them for <$ 300 on eBay- are these good deals?
e.g.,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedotron-Brown-Line-400-W-2-M90-Heads-1-MWR3-head-ans-extras-w-Case-/181590427933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a47a2091d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPEEDOTRON-D802-800-WS-Power-Pack-2-Heads-Instructions-Bundle-/281531678691?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418c987fe3
The primary use will be as a key light for portraits, but I am not sure if one 600 will be strong enough to pass through the diffuser and provide a good key. I am loathe to gang up 600s because that reduces my flexibility to use a secondary light, hair light etc.
Any advice?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Loswr]

I find that a single 600EX struggles in a double-diffused modifier >600 in2. They're fine in a 24" softbox, 48x12" stripbox, or 30" octabox. I often use a single monolight (PCB Einstein) in a large modifier like a 4' octa as key, with 600's in softboxes as fill or kicker, or just with a Honl Speed Grid as a hair/rim light. I started with PocketWizard triggers, but I've found that using an ST-E3 on camera to trigger the 600's and the optical slave capability of the monolight is quite reliable.

 

[sagittariansrock]

I find that a single 600EX struggles in a double-diffused modifier >600 in2. They're fine in a 24" softbox, 48x12" stripbox, or 30" octabox. I often use a single monolight (PCB Einstein) in a large modifier like a 4' octa as key, with 600's in softboxes as fill or kicker, or just with a Honl Speed Grid as a hair/rim light. I started with PocketWizard triggers, but I've found that using an ST-E3 on camera to trigger the 600's and the optical slave capability of the monolight is quite reliable.

Thanks for the precise information, Neuro. The Wafer is 30" by 40", so the 600 will definitely not be sufficient...
I don't have the budget for an Einstein at the moment, though, and the used ones aren't that much cheaper. So maybe the Alienbee 400 is my best option...

 

[MonkeyB]

hey - try to save up for the einstein unit. they are nice, and they're modifiers are relatively cheap. i'm building up a rig around an e640. still need a couple of speed lights for accents.

this was taken the other day with one e640 and the 5-in-1 reflector kit:

 

[sagittariansrock]

hey - try to save up for the einstein unit. they are nice, and they're modifiers are relatively cheap. i'm building up a rig around an e640. still need a couple of speed lights for accents.

this was taken the other day with one e640 and the 5-in-1 reflector kit:

Thanks, I did notice how the Einsteins are so much better than the Alien Bees (and how the 640s are as powerful as the 1600s, d'uh!) so I know I really want them after all...
Can you tell me what all accessories you have gotten/will get? (Neuro, MonkeyB?)
Thanks in advance!

 

[Loswr]

What's great about the Einstein is the range – it not only has the max power of the B1600, it has the minimum power of the B400. That's useful indoors with a smaller or non-diffusing modifier.

In addition to the 47" octabox with fabric grid, I have the 22" beauty dish (silver), the 8.5" reflector with 15° and 30° honeycomb grids, and the white shovel background reflector. The octabox and the background reflector get the most use.

 

[MonkeyB]

i have a PLM with on-axis speedring in soft silver for crispness, and the optional diffusion sock for soft shadows. had to keep that one to 51" because my spare room where i do the portraits is pretty small. if you have the space, then the larger PLM's are probably smarter.

also got an omni dish with diffusion sock for mainly outdoor use where an umbrella is not ideal. the omni with sock is also my beauty dish equivalent. planning on getting the honeycomb grid for the omni for that spot/mood effect.

to save money, i use the 5-in-1 collapsible reflector kit with mounting arm extension for fill light.

i have cybersync commander for my camera and for metering, and the einstein-specific receiver module.

other planned items from PCB will be a VML battery for outdoors. i will get 2 low-cost manual speed lights for hair and for background with some related modifiers, and i think the cybersync commander can meter and fire those, so i will probably get another set of cybersync receivers to pair with those speed lights.

 

[RLPhoto]

You correct about speed lites struggling with larger mods. Once you have to gang up more than two, it's worth moving to a big light system. I had some novatron strobes two years ago but I never liked the color output or the selection of modifiers they had. I believe speedotron is very similar to my previous strobes I owned.

I own 4 PCB Einsteins now and they are superb. When you chose a system the most important factor is the modifiers and how much they cost. Look at speedotrons mods and PCBs mods, compare what you would like to own and chose them wisely. You won't be able to move to another system easily.

 

[sagittariansrock]

Thanks a lot for the advice!
I definitely feel modifier-wise PCB has a big advantage, and the only people who don't consider Buff products seem to be those outside US and those with loads of money to buy Profoto stuff (the reverse certainly not being true)
Now, looking at Einsteins- I am looking at $ 750 for the lights and a battery (plus shipping, etc). That is a bit above my budget and then I need to think about modifiers.
Secondly, I am not sure how to use the Einsteins with my 600s. I am guessing the options are to use optical slave or third party triggers for everything. Now, having bought the 600s, going back to Pocketwizards or Yongnuos seem like a step backward. Now, I wonder what the limitations of using an optical slave are... If I get a cyber commander, and have a 600 on my camera to trigger other Canon lights, do I connect the CC by a cable? Where does that fit in? Doesn't seem very streamlined to me (and I am looking at another $ 180 or so for the CC and CS)... :-\

I accidentally stumbled on to this bare bulb flash called Godox AD 360 also sold under other names. It seems to be quite portable, costs $ 500-ish with battery and remote (from Cheetah, who seem to have a pretty good reputation for customer service) and is half the power of an Einstein (which might be sufficient for me).
It will come with the same connectivity problems, of course. But if I get one of their S type adapters then that works with all modifiers and will also work for Speedlites.
Now, it sounds good on paper, but I am trying to visualize what real-world disadvantages this might entail.
Any thoughts?
Here's the product:
https://www.cheetahstand.com/A-New-Bare-Bulb-Flash-Arrives-p/cl-360p-combo.htm

Thanks again, in advance!

What's great about the Einstein is the range – it not only has the max power of the B1600, it has the minimum power of the B400. That's useful indoors with a smaller or non-diffusing modifier.

In addition to the 47" octabox with fabric grid, I have the 22" beauty dish (silver), the 8.5" reflector with 15° and 30° honeycomb grids, and the white shovel background reflector. The octabox and the background reflector get the most use.

Thanks for the info!
I am curious, how does the utility of a beauty dish vary from an octabox? Is the former mostly for catchlights? Does it help in maximizing power?
Which of the 15 and 30 degree grids are generally more useful? Thanks again!

i have a PLM with on-axis speedring in soft silver for crispness, and the optional diffusion sock for soft shadows. had to keep that one to 51" because my spare room where i do the portraits is pretty small. if you have the space, then the larger PLM's are probably smarter.

also got an omni dish with diffusion sock for mainly outdoor use where an umbrella is not ideal. the omni with sock is also my beauty dish equivalent. planning on getting the honeycomb grid for the omni for that spot/mood effect.

to save money, i use the 5-in-1 collapsible reflector kit with mounting arm extension for fill light.

i have cybersync commander for my camera and for metering, and the einstein-specific receiver module.

other planned items from PCB will be a VML battery for outdoors. i will get 2 low-cost manual speed lights for hair and for background with some related modifiers, and i think the cybersync commander can meter and fire those, so i will probably get another set of cybersync receivers to pair with those speed lights.

Thanks!
I will probably have less space at the moment, so a 51" umbrella will get me thrown out of the house (in addition to my softbox), lol! But I will keep PLMs in mind and try to find out what they are best used for.
The Omni looks like a versatile tool, and quite portable too!

You correct about speed lites struggling with larger mods. Once you have to gang up more than two, it's worth moving to a big light system. I had some novatron strobes two years ago but I never liked the color output or the selection of modifiers they had. I believe speedotron is very similar to my previous strobes I owned.

I own 4 PCB Einsteins now and they are superb. When you chose a system the most important factor is the modifiers and how much they cost. Look at speedotrons mods and PCBs mods, compare what you would like to own and chose them wisely. You won't be able to move to another system easily.

Thanks a lot, RLPhoto. Your comments generated some of the questions I came up with in the beginning and guided me in a modifier-oriented way

 

[tolusina]

Haven't tried but am interested in Cactus Triggers.
http://www.cactus-image.com/

 

[Loswr]

Now, looking at Einsteins- I am looking at $ 750 for the lights and a battery (plus shipping, etc). That is a bit above my budget and then I need to think about modifiers.

Why a battery? Perhaps I missed/forgot, are you planning remote outdoor use? I've not had a need for a battery pack yet, AC power does fine, with an extension cord if needed.

Now, I wonder what the limitations of using an optical slave are...

None that I'm aware of for studio use. Outdoors, in bright light with only a weak triggering flash pointed away from the monolight, maybe it would be an issue. I've not had the Einstein fail to optically trigger. In a venue with other photographers firing flashes, optical triggering would be a problem.

If I get a cyber commander, and have a 600 on my camera to trigger other Canon lights, do I connect the CC by a cable? Where does that fit in? Doesn't seem very streamlined to me (and I am looking at another $ 180 or so for the CC and CS)...

You'd connect the CC to the PC port on the camera. As a related issue, I sometimes use a wireless shutter release with the ST-E3-RT in the hotshoe so the shutter release receiver can't sit there. Rather than having it dangle or attach it with Velcro, I use an RRS Snap-QR cold shoe and FA-QRM bracket to mount it to the L-bracket.

I am curious, how does the utility of a beauty dish vary from an octabox? Is the former mostly for catchlights? Does it help in maximizing power?

Actually, the octabox shape is for catchlights (closer to round, vs. a square softbox). In fact, for my Lastolite Ezyboxes I have diffusion panels with a round mask for catchlight shape. A beauty dish does give round catchlights, but it's a different quality of light – harder, sharper fall-off, but still with the 'wrap around' of a softbox. There's no diffusion, so more light power is used (unless you use the included diffusion sock, then you have something close to a 22" round softbox).

Which of the 15 and 30 degree grids are generally more useful?

I find the 15° grid more useful, personally.

 

[FEBS]

Haven't tried but am interested in Cactus Triggers.
http://www.cactus-image.com/

I've used cactus v4 in the photography school and they are not reliable at all. I have a set of cactus 5 they are better, but some others do complaint there about. After I bought Yongnuo 560iii flashes (with internal RF receiver) and the YN560-TX trigger on the camera. I don't want to use any else anymore. I can really setup those cheap flashes directly from the controller (mode, power, zoom) and never had any problem of flashes not going off. The same can also be done with the very cheap YN603 trigger on the camera but there it is really not the same reliability compared to the YN560-TX trigger.

So, I knew a lot of people don't like Yongnuo, but I am very happy with them. So the cactus v5 triggers will be sold.
I have no experience with the RF60of Cactus.

 

[Pookie]

I've used the cactus system before and it worked reasonably well, for the price they are fine. After years of using speedlites and PCB's I moved to Elinchrom. I own two Rangers and 4 Quadras for all my studio and location work. I do a lot of portraiture on site for various companies here in the bay area. For weddings they are just about perfect. The Quadra's put out about 400ws and are more than capable on location... also as small as speedlites and can be modified just like their big brother Rangers. No more double AA's or trigger worries to boot. The light is so nice out of them I could never go back to speedlites. I rented some Profoto's newest for a out of state shoot and so far those are the only other strobes I'd consider swapping for at this point.

Just another option to consider.

All on site work with the Elinchrom's...

 

[agierke]

pookie, can you talk about the differences you have seen between the Einstein units and the Elinchroms? i have einsteins but am curious about the potential of switching.

 

[Pookie]

pookie, can you talk about the differences you have seen between the Einstein units and the Elinchroms? i have einsteins but am curious about the potential of switching.

The Rangers are 1000ws and Quadras are 400ws. I own both “A” and “S” version. The rangers are better for larger groups and more inclement weather... I use them for snowboarding shoots, fitness and weddings. The Quadras have become my most used units though. They can overpower the sun at 400ws and are very lite (with Li batteries), they are the best for location shooting and perform flawlessly.

Once you get into away from speedlites I’ve found most professionals gravitate towards one particular brand over another due to many reasons. It’s like flavors of ice cream, some like vanilla… some chocolate. The biggest difference I've found is the color of the light from the Elinchrom's is cleaner in my opinion... more consistent. I also find more modifiers I like for the Eli's. The Buff's are good but IMO the Eli's are better. For static “home” studio work they suffice but that is where the versatility ends and where the Eli’s take over. If you are not making money or need the versatility, Buff’s work fine. Profoto are right up there too and with the new units even more compact, I'm considering a change but I've become quite fond of the light from Elinchrom and more importantly, clients clearly like the results too.

I do lots of portraiture, especially on site/location. Less studio work over the last two years so my interest lay in quick setup, dependability, and overall quality. I switch up lighting/camera gear every year or two when there is a good reason to change. Once I moved into Elinchrom I never gave the change a second thought, I could use all the modifiers I wanted and my workflow increased due to ease of use. It's been about 3-4 years now with Elinchrom, the only wrench in the system now was that damn Profoto B1... it has me really considering a change after a week’s use.

One last plug for the Quadra’s and I’m posting a recent image from a shoot to illustrate my point. Something I would never try with Buff’s. I use a painter's pole boomed Rotalux Octa predominantly these days, try putting a Einstein or a Ranger on a large boom and see how long your V.A.L. lasts before complaining about the weight. In this shot, both my assistant, Miranda and I were in the surf. Due to all of the above… not a second thought was given when heading out into the water. For a run and gun situ... Quadras really are the best.

 

[PhotosbyChuck]

If I should get a monolight then what are the pros and cons of getting a Speedotron? I see a bunch of them for <$ 300 on eBay- are these good deals?

For 15 years I shot Speedotron (black line) equipment before switching to Profoto. In general, Speedotron is very well built and lasts. The deals you linked are decent. Both are brown line, which is lower quality than their black line...but similarly well built. The problem as I see it is that Speedotron is disappearing. Helix (here in Chicago) was where I got my gear originally...and they are gone. So, buying older equipment from Ebay can leave you with trouble finding service/parts. However, at their price point, it's not a bad deal at all IMHO.

I see a lot of posting on the Paul Buff lights. I bought a set of 3 WL800s for traveling and found them to be a bargain. They're just sitting now...and I'm too lazy to list them...but based on my use of them and the reviews of the newer Einstein lights, I'd say these make a great option.

 

[sagittariansrock]

Why a battery? Perhaps I missed/forgot, are you planning remote outdoor use? I've not had a need for a battery pack yet, AC power does fine, with an extension cord if needed.

Since I still don't have a studio set up (will happen after I move in a couple of months) and will probably shoot in other locations (probably less commonly outdoors), I felt it will be less limiting not to rely on AC power. Having said that, a battery pack will definitely not be immediately necessary if and when I get the mono.

None that I'm aware of for studio use. Outdoors, in bright light with only a weak triggering flash pointed away from the monolight, maybe it would be an issue. I've not had the Einstein fail to optically trigger. In a venue with other photographers firing flashes, optical triggering would be a problem.

Thanks, that's very reassuring. Whatever I end up deciding, it looks like there will be a lot of optical slavery with the 600s

I find the 15° grid more useful, personally.

Some manufacturers name it a bit differently- so I guess the one with closer spacing is the one I want?

Just another option to consider.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I've heard a lot about Elinchroms and Profotos- their quality of light and the vast array of great modifiers. But I think that might lie some way ahead for me, as they far surpass my budget and my knowledge of lighting. I think cheaper lights will suffice for me to understand the basics of shaping light.

For 15 years I shot Speedotron (black line) equipment before switching to Profoto. In general, Speedotron is very well built and lasts. The deals you linked are decent. Both are brown line, which is lower quality than their black line...but similarly well built. The problem as I see it is that Speedotron is disappearing. Helix (here in Chicago) was where I got my gear originally...and they are gone. So, buying older equipment from Ebay can leave you with trouble finding service/parts. However, at their price point, it's not a bad deal at all IMHO.

Thanks for the advice. It is a good point re older systems. Given their newness PCBs might be better.
As I mentioned above, I was really intrigued by the Godox AD 360s. They are compact and powerful enough for my needs. There are nagging worries about QC (which can hopefully be negated somewhat by getting it from Cheetah), but otherwise no one seems to have a bad word for those. However, it seems like Godox might come up with a TTL version, and since I can afford to wait a couple of months that might make sense.
Alternatively, there seem to be a bunch of cheaper studio lights that are getting great reviews- starting from the $ 100-sh Godox 300 (300 Ws) to the $ 600 Flashpoint Rovelight with incorporated battery. Their reviews are also pretty good- seems like there are lots of very good choices. I will probably wait for the TTL AD 360 and maybe add a cheaper mono (like the 300) as well afterwards. That should suffice for 2015.
Good thing is most of these have Bowens mounts- so I think I shall go ahead and get myself Wafer adapters for that mount.

 

[Loswr]

I find the 15° grid more useful, personally.

Some manufacturers name it a bit differently- so I guess the one with closer spacing is the one I want?

Closer spacing means a tighter beam (narrower angle). I have the Honl speedgrids (for Speedlites) in 1/4" and 1/8" (angles could be determined from the photo tests on my Flickr site but I haven't bothered). I prefer the spec in angle measure as that can be visualized (but the actual spacing is easier to specify).

 

[sagittariansrock]

hey - try to save up for the einstein unit. they are nice, and they're modifiers are relatively cheap. i'm building up a rig around an e640. still need a couple of speed lights for accents.

this was taken the other day with one e640 and the 5-in-1 reflector kit:

MonkeyB, I must have missed the picture the last time. Cute kiddo... What did you do to catch that smile or is this a natural model in the making

 

[sulla]

You can give the 600EXs a try for a studio setup, and at times you will get good results.

But generally I think you will find them too weak for a real studio setup. Speedlights have around 70Ws of light output, and that is way weaker than the weakest studio flashes. So, for the main studio light a dedicated studio flash will be much better (and likely cheaper as well). For effect lights and fill lights you may find the 600EXs to be fine, however.