It might be good for someone to start a Canon-hate site, so that in this forum we can get back to discussing photography and away from all those silly troll posts.
Upvote
0
Loving Canon right now.
- Thread starter CowGummy
- Start date
- Status
I'm an amateur photographer. I have no pretensions about my ability. I am still happy shooting with my 550D. The IQ is fine for my purposes but the AF isn't great.
I'm thinking about upgrading to FF but I will not upgrade to something that has only a slightly better AF system for £1300 more than my current camera. We'll see how good the 6D's AF system is but it doesn't look great.
I don't hate Canon but I feel this "entry level" FF 6D offering is a very poor effort.
I do wonder why Canon don't release a stills only FF camera. It wouldn't directly compete with the 5D mark III because it would not have video function and all the bells and whistles.
Now that would be innovative - build a stills camera.
I'm thinking about upgrading to FF but I will not upgrade to something that has only a slightly better AF system for £1300 more than my current camera. We'll see how good the 6D's AF system is but it doesn't look great.
I don't hate Canon but I feel this "entry level" FF 6D offering is a very poor effort.
I do wonder why Canon don't release a stills only FF camera. It wouldn't directly compete with the 5D mark III because it would not have video function and all the bells and whistles.
Now that would be innovative - build a stills camera.
Upvote
0
The wish for stills cameras has been posted here quite often, but I don't think that Canon can be persuaded to go back on a feature, which has been such a match-winner for them. Just look at all those 5D Mark II sales, when Nikon had nothing to compete with it. Canon are quite aware now that a good sensor plus a mediocre autofocus system are a match-winning combination. Manual focus is not such a problem. You can still create stunning photos using manual focus. If you want brilliant autofocus capabilities Canon have that as well, but for a different budget. Just think of the 5D Mark III or the 1D X.
Upvote
0
The 6D launch is kinda like the 60D launch - many whined over the new plastic case and loss of AFMA (the latter I agree on).
If the Image quality of the 6D - especially on High ISO - is comparable to the 5DIII, and Video quality is like the 5DIII in terms of DR,Moiré/Aliasing and Details, it can become the big brother to my 60D as soon as the price drops in about 6 months. I want to go FF, but the 5DIII is way out of my price range, and the Moiré in Video of the 5DII is just too bad for that kind of money. GPS and Wifi are a nice add in for the cost.
The missing headphone jack can hopefully be compensated for by ML using the AV out - just like on the 60D.
If it delivers on Image/Video-quality and high ISO performance, I am excited about it. That's what the original 5D was about - great sensor in a (relatively) cheap body. This is the successor to the 5D II I have basically been waiting for since 2010.
If the Image quality of the 6D - especially on High ISO - is comparable to the 5DIII, and Video quality is like the 5DIII in terms of DR,Moiré/Aliasing and Details, it can become the big brother to my 60D as soon as the price drops in about 6 months. I want to go FF, but the 5DIII is way out of my price range, and the Moiré in Video of the 5DII is just too bad for that kind of money. GPS and Wifi are a nice add in for the cost.
The missing headphone jack can hopefully be compensated for by ML using the AV out - just like on the 60D.
If it delivers on Image/Video-quality and high ISO performance, I am excited about it. That's what the original 5D was about - great sensor in a (relatively) cheap body. This is the successor to the 5D II I have basically been waiting for since 2010.
Upvote
0
Cannon Man said:
The analogy is a bit lacking... the situation is different:
It is about expectation management. Many people switched from Nikon to Canon when the 5D2 was released; they came over to Canon because of a great body/Sensor (Canon already had nice glass); they came because of innovation and someone being revolutionary and taking everyone for a ride with their success.
Once people tasted this success, their expectations of Canon told them that Canon would come up with better products at cheaper prices giving them more great value propositions. Canon may not have exclusively promised this, but they sure as heck implied it with their attitude and behaviour.
What happening now? Canon is getting fat and Lazy, the R&D has slowed, their value proposition is faltering whicle Nikon is not only catching up, but actually giving Canon a hard time in sensors. Canon might be holding up... but many of it's customers feel the humiliation of not being the leader, but the double humiliation of Canon overcharging them too. They are feeling the pinch on both ends... This is why people are pissed off among other reasons... This is how a company can foster or kill loyalty.
Not only are Canon customers feeling Nikon is offering better products, but that Canon is also kicking them in the rear with the pricing.
This is short term; Quarterly based earnings mentality that wil take Canon down in the mid-to long term unless they reverse course.
Even now they can slavage some of it by Pricing the 6D at about $1600-1700 and accepting the fact that they overpriced the 5D3... 2 wrongs, don't make a right. Time to do the right thing... The 6D could be another runaway success with non-pros if it is priced properly.
Upvote
0
"If you want brilliant autofocus capabilities Canon have that as well, but for a different budget. Just think of the 5D Mark III or the 1D X."
I don't want to spend £2650 for a brilliant autofocus system. But for £1800 the 6D should be better. It should at least be on a par with the 7D (which I can get for £800 less than the 6D).
I don't want to spend £2650 for a brilliant autofocus system. But for £1800 the 6D should be better. It should at least be on a par with the 7D (which I can get for £800 less than the 6D).
Upvote
0
AmbientLight said:
I really don't get the defense of this camera. which from reading this reply, its pretty much just pretend this is 2008 and then your awesome! The d600 is the competition to the 6d...and the mk3 is competing with the d800 --at least those 2 cameras are in the same ballpark with specs, with the differentiation equaling out (d800 has the MP DR advantage, canon has the low light and buffer fps advantage). Only other thing different is the price, and its kind of a d%%k move on nikons part to undercut and sell at a loss (we don't like it when new photogs come along and steal our clients cause they undercut our rates...)..
SO stop comparing the d600 to the mk3 (mk3 wins that battle all over the place anyhow).. The battle is now d600 vs 6d ----and the appropriate car analogy would be more like toyota corolla vs honda civic (not VW to BMW - thats more like comparing a dslr to a MF with digital back).
Without anger, you can't line up the specs and say they are even - but the price is even. Do we know the inside stories? Nikon is kind of obviously making a big move to outplay canon, but at what cost? Maybe this is in the realm of nikon making moves that aide them in the short term but hurt them long term? Canon isn't going anywhere and with the recent round of releases they now have 2-3 years to regain their footing --- maybe that will be enough time for canon to find a workaround to produce an exmor like sensor that doesn't infringe on sony patents? Or, maybe sony pulls the plug on nikon? Or, maybe the time period of the exchange ends and sony will then sell chips to canon? One thing is clear ---sony is in this to make money --- not because they have some love affair with nikon, nikon just made a deal with them that benefited sony - which is why I believe that nikon is MSRP'ing their latest releases at a loss that brings more people to their system and once there the hope is they will stay!
But ---- as the wind changes direction, how many that sell their canon gear will be selling their nikon gear in 2-3 years? Really, the only sensible option is to pick a camp and stay with it, or, don't lock yourself into one system - build a gear bag with both systems.
Either way --defending this 6d with its current competition is a kin to putting your head in the sand and pretending it's 2008. Sure, the 6d beats the d700 on many levels just as the 5d2 did, but when stacked against 2012/13 competition - its really hard to make a valid defense.
Upvote
0
Defense of the 6D is not even my point.
Canon observed a market niche identified with the 5D Mark II and now they try to sell into this niche again with a newer model. This may be frustrating for many, but it should not be surprising. I definitely won't buy this camera, but there may be those, who want to do this.
As for all the agitation about specs comparison, that leads to nothing.
There is an old saying in sales that features don't sell. This applies as long as there is no tangible benefit like you can do things with one camera, which you can't with another and then you must have this one. In this mid-market entry-level full-frame segment I don't expect there will be any measurement of success except for sales totals, but we will have to wait a while for the dust to settle down on this one.
Canon observed a market niche identified with the 5D Mark II and now they try to sell into this niche again with a newer model. This may be frustrating for many, but it should not be surprising. I definitely won't buy this camera, but there may be those, who want to do this.
As for all the agitation about specs comparison, that leads to nothing.
There is an old saying in sales that features don't sell. This applies as long as there is no tangible benefit like you can do things with one camera, which you can't with another and then you must have this one. In this mid-market entry-level full-frame segment I don't expect there will be any measurement of success except for sales totals, but we will have to wait a while for the dust to settle down on this one.
Upvote
0
AmbientLight said:
thats the thing with the 6d though ...its seems to be jack of a few trades and master of none. Above and beyond anger at this, there is confusion ---this camera almost hits the mid-entry FF, but not quite, while alos touching on the pro market, but not quite. So, you have the non-educated I don't know the difference between FF and crop sensor, i just want something with nice presets that i can shoot my kids with (at $2K, this is most likely out of their reach, they will mostly likely buy a rebel). The educated enthusiasts who have been using canon gear and made compromises (bought EF-S glass because the cost of EF glass is high and EF glass doesn't work as amazingly well on crop), they probably won't opt for this because at $2k the cost of transition is too big, especially when the feature set is possibly a step down from what you were on (60d and 7d users). Then there are emerging pro's, and semi-pros that know a bit more than the other 2 categories. These are people looking to go from crop to FF, or, to pick up a good FF as a backup/secondary body. I am in this category and like I said in other threads ---unless this new sensor can perform some magic or the AF is better than advertised ---all this 6d does is make me ponder buying a second 5d3 or a used 1d4.
So tell me, just which of these groups is the 6d targeted towards?
IMO - it should have been a full plastic body, a true rebel FF at $1500 (yes, call it the 70d!) - or - stepped up to have a reasonable AF system like the 7d's (If the 6d had a decent AF system I doubt there'd be that much anger about it. Add in a 21 point AF with a bunch of cross points and that evens the scales quite a bit).
They could have done both --- plastic FF with old af --- call it a rebel at $1500...then have a midway FF in the 2k-2.5k area with metal body and more robust AF (hell, give it the mk3 sensor then dumb down the servo mode and limit the fps - i would buy that at 2.5k). That may be overkill, but think about it ---people do draw these lines in the sand of what they will spend. It's generall at the even marks of $1000, 2000, 3000.
most are saying they would consider the 6d if it were under 2k. Most say they want the mk3 bad but won't do it above 3k. Lines in the sand. Now think of who these people drawing these lines are --- most wedding photographers have no issues buying a mk3 -- that leaves pro studio, landscape, and wildlife togs, then enthusiasts and hobbyists. The pro segments won't buy the mk3 because it offers no real upgrade in IQ over value for what they do (most of them at least) - which is reasonable. Hobbyists and enthusiasts are left then, and they are the hardest segment to market to because they don't have measurable ways to justify the purchase. If you are making money with photography, the equations are simple, does your income justify the purchase? And can that purchase potentially earn you more than you made before? Not as easy for the latter 2 groups. And oddly, those are generallythe 2 groups that consistently want less for more, and the ones most likely to jump ship because they don't use or see the value in things like CPS (which is still much nicer than nikons support). It seems to me like the 6d is a failed attempt to cater to the latter 2 groups, who will be more swayed by what the camera's look like on paper. For the former groups ---i see lots of people in the pro/semipro/emerging pro category who were waiting on the 6d instead buying a refurb 1dsiii, used 1d4's, used/new/refurb 5d2's, and yes, 5d3's.
Upvote
0
With your last sentence you have actually delivered an argumentation for why the new 6D may be designed as it is: Canon wouldn't like existing bodies to severely drop in price/lose value, so as not to offend existing professional customers. For people knowledgeable enough and interested in professional gear they can either go for older professional models or for a 5D Mark III or 1D X (if funds permit). The 6D appears to target those wanting to upgrade to ff keeping their EF lenses without being overwhelmed by a more complex AF system.
The additional new features are provided to make the product appear somewhat innovative, although in essence it is not. It appears designed to fill a niche without using up too many development resources, which for a vendor is an important consideration. It is far more effective for Canon to concentrate development resources on other, more important product development. An entry-level full-frame camera certainly does not qualify for that, a new 1-series or something similar certainly would qualify.
The additional new features are provided to make the product appear somewhat innovative, although in essence it is not. It appears designed to fill a niche without using up too many development resources, which for a vendor is an important consideration. It is far more effective for Canon to concentrate development resources on other, more important product development. An entry-level full-frame camera certainly does not qualify for that, a new 1-series or something similar certainly would qualify.
Upvote
0
I will agree that Canon's recent products seem to be a bit lacking in areas. C100 and 5D3 don't have 1080p60, but Sony's $600 A57 does. 5D3 doesn't have uncompressed HDMI, but the Panasonic GH3 does as does the D600. The 6D seems to follow this trend of being a few features short of everyone being happy with them.
Some people seem to have the expectation that every single product they release should be "groundbreaking," but I just don't think that's always possible. People expected the same "wow factor" from the 5D3 as the 5D2, but prior to the 5DII no one (in the video world anyways) had seen crazy shallow DOF on a camera that cheap. So to go from these tiny camcorder sensors to a FF sensor that's literally 10x-15x bigger is a tremendous jump in quality/low-light capability/DOF. For Canon to have gotten the same reaction from the 5D3 it would needed to have like an 8K sensor and shoot 1000fps@1080p. The 5D2 was just a very hard act to follow.
Honestly if they had just put uncompressed HDMI on the 5D3 I would be completely happy, but I've been seriously considering a D800 recently, the footage from it on an external recorder looks incredible.
Some people seem to have the expectation that every single product they release should be "groundbreaking," but I just don't think that's always possible. People expected the same "wow factor" from the 5D3 as the 5D2, but prior to the 5DII no one (in the video world anyways) had seen crazy shallow DOF on a camera that cheap. So to go from these tiny camcorder sensors to a FF sensor that's literally 10x-15x bigger is a tremendous jump in quality/low-light capability/DOF. For Canon to have gotten the same reaction from the 5D3 it would needed to have like an 8K sensor and shoot 1000fps@1080p. The 5D2 was just a very hard act to follow.
Honestly if they had just put uncompressed HDMI on the 5D3 I would be completely happy, but I've been seriously considering a D800 recently, the footage from it on an external recorder looks incredible.
Upvote
0
Hi all!
Op here, I posted the opening statement last night whilst once again suffering from insomnia. I've just spent the last 45 minutes reading each and every reply here (sorry, not a very fast reader) and am really grateful for peoples thoughts on this.
I get that some of you don't like the car analogy. Fair enough - might not work for everyone and that's ay okay imho. Axilrod got it right mind you, I was referring to pricing, not specs -because that would be mental. Whoever was comparing the BMW 320D to the Golf R - I do take your point, but I also think your argument is flawed. You're comparing one of the lowest spec 3 series diesels to the top of the line Golf. If you took top models from both you'd be more likely looking at Golf R vs. M3. I know where my money would be... Although I digress heavily at this point...
There seems to be a fair bit of chatter about Canon being innovative and pushing the envelope in the last few years until let's say, uh, 12 months ago. Do we think Nikon shooters have been muttering stuff like we are for the last decade only to come up top trump now? Maybe. I've always been a firm believer in 'what goes up, must come down'. And I truly feel the tables will turn again, and again, and again...
Someone else said I was being too reasonable. Quite possibly - my wife often says the same. The bottom line for me is that right now, the Canon line-up (in my own humble opinion) is looking so much better than it did 12 months ago when I bought my 5DII, and back then these forums were overall extremely positive. Maybe it's the loss of Karma that's turned things slightly. Although I will admit I hated the whole Karma thing... And now, 12 months on, we have a lot more being offered and far less people are happy. What gives? Someone else mentioned photographers/consumers expectations and I do think this is a really valid point. We're so used to expecting the next best (sorry, better) thing every 6-12 months these days. Look at smartphones, tablets etc... Maybe it's a sign of me growing old (or up? I'm 32 by the way, have been shooting for 15 years), but these things are moving so fast now, it's just weird how quickly people turn on what was 'awesome' not too long ago.
Anyways, I genuinely respect ALL of your views and am now going to have a fag (that's a cigarette to those who are unfamiliar with brit terminology) and check out todays studio session, shot with my brilliant Canon camera, about 350 photos to go through - love it. Have a great night all and can't wait to see if this develops any further.
Cheers,
Steve
PS: Can't remember the exact quote of that video link, but the sentiment of 'everything is perfect, and no-one is happy might have to be new signature for my work email. Genius - thanks!
Op here, I posted the opening statement last night whilst once again suffering from insomnia. I've just spent the last 45 minutes reading each and every reply here (sorry, not a very fast reader) and am really grateful for peoples thoughts on this.
I get that some of you don't like the car analogy. Fair enough - might not work for everyone and that's ay okay imho. Axilrod got it right mind you, I was referring to pricing, not specs -because that would be mental. Whoever was comparing the BMW 320D to the Golf R - I do take your point, but I also think your argument is flawed. You're comparing one of the lowest spec 3 series diesels to the top of the line Golf. If you took top models from both you'd be more likely looking at Golf R vs. M3. I know where my money would be... Although I digress heavily at this point...
There seems to be a fair bit of chatter about Canon being innovative and pushing the envelope in the last few years until let's say, uh, 12 months ago. Do we think Nikon shooters have been muttering stuff like we are for the last decade only to come up top trump now? Maybe. I've always been a firm believer in 'what goes up, must come down'. And I truly feel the tables will turn again, and again, and again...
Someone else said I was being too reasonable. Quite possibly - my wife often says the same. The bottom line for me is that right now, the Canon line-up (in my own humble opinion) is looking so much better than it did 12 months ago when I bought my 5DII, and back then these forums were overall extremely positive. Maybe it's the loss of Karma that's turned things slightly. Although I will admit I hated the whole Karma thing... And now, 12 months on, we have a lot more being offered and far less people are happy. What gives? Someone else mentioned photographers/consumers expectations and I do think this is a really valid point. We're so used to expecting the next best (sorry, better) thing every 6-12 months these days. Look at smartphones, tablets etc... Maybe it's a sign of me growing old (or up? I'm 32 by the way, have been shooting for 15 years), but these things are moving so fast now, it's just weird how quickly people turn on what was 'awesome' not too long ago.
Anyways, I genuinely respect ALL of your views and am now going to have a fag (that's a cigarette to those who are unfamiliar with brit terminology) and check out todays studio session, shot with my brilliant Canon camera, about 350 photos to go through - love it. Have a great night all and can't wait to see if this develops any further.
Cheers,
Steve
PS: Can't remember the exact quote of that video link, but the sentiment of 'everything is perfect, and no-one is happy might have to be new signature for my work email. Genius - thanks!
Upvote
0
Cannon Man said:
Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain. Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now? By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining.
Upvote
0
Quote from a person commenting on the original post.
"Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain. Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now? By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining."
I would contend that you have no right to ask the original poster to not ask people to stop complaining!
"Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain. Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now? By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining."
I would contend that you have no right to ask the original poster to not ask people to stop complaining!
Upvote
0
krjc said:
I could complain whatever I want. Why do some fanboys think CR is only for them? If people say something bad for Canon, they will just against those people with no sense. Grow up.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
