Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV

The "convergence of still and vid" has already happened, but the two forms of image capture are different. Canon delivers a dSLR that is an evolution of a tried and true ergonomic design that works right for portraits, action, and wildlife.

The shape and controls of the dSLR simply don't work as well for handheld video, but Canon recognized before Nikon or Sony the market for a device that could catch supplemental video during a stills shoot, say at weddings and other events. Clever videographers saw the amazing potential that dSLR lenses brought to video and exploited them effectively.

Which led enthusiastic amateurs to think they had a cheaper, single device route to making great movies and take top quality stills too. A new industry formed to make brackets and counterbalances and other gadgets which work around the ergonomic limitations of the dSLR.

The car analogy isn't working for me. Maybe something with cooking? A conventional oven is great for baking and roasting. A microwave for quick heating, "cooking" a frozen dinner, maybe boiling water for tea or baby formula. Years ago a few manufacturers tried making microwaves that had browning elements (maybe there are still some being made). But most cooks, from occasional to professionals, understood that a microwave could never bake well, and an oven was too slow for frozen prepared meals. Which is why most kitchens have an oven and a microwave.

Wonderfully balanced, ergonomically superb video cameras with sensors, light meter, AF, and IS designed for videography are available in all price ranges. Same with stills cameras.

Ok, I'll play along with the vehicle analogy. Comparing brands of passenger vehicles doesn't make sense when, in fact, the OP is arguing that every car should be a pickup truck, and every pickup truck should be a car. Here in the USA we had a rare bird of a vehicle called an El Camino, a hybrid, a car with a bed and tailgate. It is now a curiosity, a collector's item.
 
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Orangutan said:
Buster said:
Busted Knuckles said:
...while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage ...
Fuselage you say!? I think the word you are grasping for is "fusillade" not "fuselage" although the correction will hardly improve your sophomoric screed.
Welcome to CR!

At least he/she read it and thought about it. Good catch on the autocorrect. Whether or not I am sophomoric, you have your opinions, glad you shared them.
 
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YuengLinger said:
The "convergence of still and vid" has already happened, but the two forms of image capture are different. Canon delivers a dSLR that is an evolution of a tried and true ergonomic design that works right for portraits, action, and wildlife.

The shape and controls of the dSLR simply don't work as well for handheld video, but Canon recognized before Nikon or Sony the market for a device that could catch supplemental video during a stills shoot, say at weddings and other events. Clever videographers saw the amazing potential that dSLR lenses brought to video and exploited them effectively.

Which led enthusiastic amateurs to think they had a cheaper, single device route to making great movies and take top quality stills too. A new industry formed to make brackets and counterbalances and other gadgets which work around the ergonomic limitations of the dSLR.

The car analogy isn't working for me. Maybe something with cooking? A conventional oven is great for baking and roasting. A microwave for quick heating, "cooking" a frozen dinner, maybe boiling water for tea or baby formula. Years ago a few manufacturers tried making microwaves that had browning elements (maybe there are still some being made). But most cooks, from occasional to professionals, understood that a microwave could never bake well, and an oven was too slow for frozen prepared meals. Which is why most kitchens have an oven and a microwave.

Wonderfully balanced, ergonomically superb video cameras with sensors, light meter, AF, and IS designed for videography are available in all price ranges. Same with stills cameras.

Ok, I'll play along with the vehicle analogy. Comparing brands of passenger vehicles doesn't make sense when, in fact, the OP is arguing that every car should be a pickup truck, and every pickup truck should be a car. Here in the USA we had a rare bird of a vehicle called an El Camino, a hybrid, a car with a bed and tailgate. It is now a curiosity, a collector's item.

Nice reference to the El Camino. 2 pts for sure :). Ergonomics is a tough topic. Vid cams are set up w/ thumb on bottom (right hand mostly I suspect) whereas stills are set up w/ thumb on top. Why? Perhaps it is the way we would use a handheld telescope?

When I bring my hand to my face the natural position is thumb on bottom - three point stability you have to exert effort to move the thumb to the top - some of the early digitals (minolta/sony etc) seemed to work in this direction, but it was against the convention of the 35mm stills camera.... so moving from the known to the unknown breaking as few conventions is typically easier in adoption. Heck, I don't really know, but like most the posters on this site, I have an opinion - even if it is my first post (which it isn't :) )

I recall an article about one of the 1st Red Dragons shooting 14-16 mp, global shutter, huge DR, etc and certainly at that price point stills and vid have converged. I suspect in about 12-24 months that convergence will be at a much lower price point.

And for those who don't think you need FPS in the 20s, 30s and beyond. There are some wonderful educational vids on B&H from the wildlife shooter that explains the benefit have having to toss out 15 out of 16 frames and that one, just that one, ends up on the cover of a major publication. And it happens several times. He has one particularly funny story about setting up next to a single framer who self righteously expressed a single press of the button well timed is all that is needed. And then the momma giraffe kissed the baby on the forehead the single button fired, and then the baby stuck out its tongue..... well the FPS guy got the shot, the single presser walked off in a bit of a huff.

Ahhh the art of it all, why does all this tech overwhelm the art of it all. Well it doesn't. The art is in the composition, in the huffing the gear in bad weather, odd hours, because you are determined to get the shot. Yea it used to be you had to know exposure, developing, printing, etc. Well tech certainly did take a huge chunk of this - not all but huge chunk, no doubt. What tech didn't do was climb a tree, sit in blind for hours in a driving freezing rain storm, climb to 15k feet with 50lbs of gear to get a shot of a snow leopard, etc.

You can flame me all you want, it is a free country - at least pretty much free in the U.S. - I was pointing out that Canon left a hole, that it could easily fill. Actually I am glad they didn't, if there was no competition, there would be far less innovation.

Happy clicks to all.
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
You can flame me all you want, it is a free country - at least pretty much free in the U.S. - I was pointing out that Canon left a hole, that it could easily fill. Actually I am glad they didn't, if there was no competition, there would be far less innovation.

I think we can all agree that more competition is indeed better for us. ;)
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market. And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade. And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin. Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony... But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation. You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc. And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device....... If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note.....

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon. If I do it will be a brand change.

What was the point of this post? You just took a dump on Canon. Many of us are Canon fanboys so that's not going respond well here. Your post is lame. I understand that the Mark IV is lacking in the video department so I'd get the Canon C100 Mark II instead. Sony and Nikon still doesn't have crap on Canon's lenses though. Canon is unrivaled there.

I use the 24-70mm Mark II and 70-200mm Mark II daily. Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and Nikon are not beating those zooms anytime.
 
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Yes, the world is still waiting for compelling wild life photos. Maybe, just maybe, we'll finally get something worthwhile if only Canon were a bit more competitive than Sony.

On a side note, one of my favorite Little Feat songs is "Don't Bogart that Joint."
 
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Did I miss it, or what Sony were you comparing the 5DIV against?

Just wondering if size/weight were factors but maybe you should have been comparing an M5 or M6 vs a A6500.

BTW, I'd be curious as to the pros/cons. Why did you like the Sony so much more?
 
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Maiaibing said:
Mr. Milo said:
I use the 24-70mm Mark II and 70-200mm Mark II daily. Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and Nikon are not beating those zooms anytime.
Except that the new Nikon 7+-200mm by all accounts is somewhat better...

Somewhat better than what? If you want a 70-135 at minimum close focusing then yes it is definitely 'better'. No end of Nikon users hate the 70-200 f2.8VR II because of the very bad focus breathing. For sports and general shooters using it with subjects at further distances, yes, they love it, it is just about on a par with the Canon IS MkII for sharpness and contrast. Portrait shooters are pretty universally hating it though.
 
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Giggle and snort, never mentioned size nor weight as an issue - though it would be part of ergonomics.

I hate to answer a question with a question but...... Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish?

As to buffer on 20 fps good point - haven't seen the stats on that, though SD cards can write 300 ish m/s. Though it is a fair question what the buffer clear will be. And 300 should suit 4k at 60 fps. Boggles the mind what the file size would be.
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
I hate to answer a question with a question but...... Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish?

No. But when in your OP you say
The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.
(my emphasis)

and from that it is clear that you place video higher on your list than most stills shooters do. And that is the nub of the issue. You (like others) want a Sony-standard 4k. Canon on the other hand made a decision that the 4k they have put in the camera suit the way most people what shoot stills with a bit of video go about it. Canon reckons that those sort of casual videographers don't spend time post-editing so don't need the full capability Sony offers.
Canon is doing what it does best - looks after the market as a whole.



Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc
Remind me what their market share is again. And can you offer any data on how the arrival of the A7Rii boosted their market - this last one is out of interest because I have no idea.
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market. And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade. And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin. Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony... But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation. You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc. And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device....... If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note.....

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon. If I do it will be a brand change.

In the last few months Ive driven a Mercedes GLC, C Class, E Class, a Jaguar XF all after having a BMW 5 series for years (various models). I also drove Lexus, Kia, Honda but ultimately I'm going back to the new BMW 5 Series. The Germans have the Koreans and Japanese beat particularly BMW I don't know what cars you've driven but frankly your wrong all the luxury German brands are up on sales globally.

I have the Canon 5DS, 6D and have spent the last week using a company 5D MKIV. For the UK price the MKIV is over-valued and unless the price drops below £ 3K then I will not be purchasing one, period. If the 6D MKII is a worthy successor then I will be purchasing one.
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
Giggle and snort, never mentioned size nor weight as an issue - though it would be part of ergonomics.

I hate to answer a question with a question but...... Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish?

As to buffer on 20 fps good point - haven't seen the stats on that, though SD cards can write 300 ish m/s. Though it is a fair question what the buffer clear will be. And 300 should suit 4k at 60 fps. Boggles the mind what the file size would be.

Actually, I am not even sure you mentioned ergonomics....nor really what you preferred with some Sony camera.

But...if we are just talking general market strategy, where I disagree with you is that BMW/Mercedes likely had very limited ability to stop the evolution of Lexus, Acura, etc. Change is inevitable. Competition is going to come and go. In all likelihood, BMW/Mercedes did the best they could at specific moments. I doubt an evolved/mature luxury car market was ever going to be dominated by just two manufacturers.

Same is true with cameras. I expect there to be competition in a mature camera market. Sony, Nikon, whomever. In 10 years, someone else will likely rise up. No big deal as long as Canon takes care of their business, which they have. They have a distinctive edge in many ways (lenses, big lenses, action/sports, etc), are among the class leaders in others (portrait/event photography), may be lagging behind in some specific ways but have recent solid entrants (sensors/mirrorless), and are leaving part of the market to others (still cameras with 4K video), for now.

Overall, I'd take that business along with the market share every day of the week. It's really very remarkable.

Of course, that isn't taking anything away from Sony, who have had some great innovations and grown their market share. Actually, I do not care much about 4K video, but have to admit, I'd like to have the high fps video as I think that would be fun to play with. If anything, Nikon is the group that has recently fallen, but I hope they gather themselves and I like some of their recent lens releases (105 f/1.4).
 
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I was impressed by the things the A9 had when it was announced, but I feel very little draw to switch from Canon.

Either one of the current cameras have the capability to take better photos or videos than anything that was available even a few years ago. With the overall level that camera technology is at, if you are not able to capture something amazing with either an A9 or a 5D4, switching to the other is probably not going to give you the ability to do that.

Face it, all we're doing is sitting around arguing which paintbrush has slightly stiffer bristles.
 
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edoorn said:
You know why I like the BMW?

it's a pure driving machine

We could argue over that ! Marketing hype. Try taking one of the recent BMWs on the track with all the electronic traction and stability controls switched off. With the exception of a couple of the 'M's they are dogs. Personally I think BMW have sold their souls to the American market.

If you want to try something that is close to the 'pure driving machine' try something like a Caterham Super 7 :D

However I agree with you on Canon ;)
 
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I'm really liking my 5D4. I also just started to shoot more video. Nevertheless, most of my wedding gigs for this year are for photography, and only a few for videography. So the 5D4 is a really great solution for me. However, I also picked up a Sony A6500 to help with the video chores and as a light camera to use on a gimbal. The Sony produces really nice video, and I've worked with it just enough to get video settings dialed in so I rarely have to do a deep dive into the terrible menu system. The 5D4, while not getting much love for video still has some really compelling video features. The dual pixel autofocus works amazing, the operation of the camera is just so intuitive, it is a pleasure to use. AND, the video looks beautiful... whether I'm shooting 4K or 1080p. To get me though a day - not knowing exactly how much I'll shoot 4K and how much will be 1080p, I also invested in 256 GB CF and SD cards (the SD card selected to ensure it can keep up with Canon's massive 500 Mbps data rate). By the way, as a long time Quality Manager, I've always felt the most important feature of anything you buy is the reliability... so I'll take the Lexus or Toyota any day!
 
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Rockskipper said:
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.
There are many small improvements that add up to a much better overall package than the mk3, even if there is no one remarkable feature that is a game changer.
I particularly like are the improved image quality as it really shows what some of my better lenses can do. Also I like the rear LCD monitor which is a lot clearer, much better than the mk3, and its ability to focus very quickly even when it is almost dark.
Yes, I know it is possible to buy a camera that having better video features, but I find that 1080p is more than adequate for what I do.
Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.
 
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Ian_of_glos said:
Rockskipper said:
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.

Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.

Thanks for your comment - am ordering one today from Canon.
 
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