New iPhone: Final Nail in the Coffin

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unfocused

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Jul 20, 2010
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I don't really get that excited about these sorts of things, but I thought it would be an interesting conversation starter, especially since there is ZERO going on with Canon products these days.

New iPhone:
10 frames per second; in-camera stabilization, white and amber flashes that can be balanced with ambient light, f2.2 lens, larger sensor, slow-motion video. (If I got the specs right)

Announcement was accompanied by a slide showing a DSLR and a boatload of equipment, apparently implying that instead of all that, you can use your iPhone and get the same shots.

Is this the final nail in the coffin for Powershots and other Point and Shoots? Should Canon and Nikon worry about their DSLR sales? Try to think outside your own personal prejudices and look at it objectively. What do you think?
 
I just read a recap of the Apple announcement and was wondering the same thing. DSLRs still have a huge image quality advantage of smartphone cameras but the gap is narrowing quickly for sure. I was astounded at the quality of my iPhone 5 images on an overseas trip this summer even though they weren't quite in the same league as my Canon. There were a few times on the trip I was able to take iPhone snapshots with great results instead of hauling out my Canon equipment (sort of liberating). What I'd like to see in Canon's next DSLR announcements is some of the more innovative features that are showing up in the smartphone cameras like those announced by Apple today. Come on Canon, get with it!
 
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I've never had an iPhone but I do use the wife's iPad, and it's too slow for sports and too noisy for indoor/low light situations. My cell phone is about as dumb as can be -- no data, no internet, no text; just use it as a phone. Am I in the minority? Absolutely.

P&S sales will continue to go down until the smart phones saturate the market, but they'll still sell in the hundreds of thousands/millions. The problem with cell phones is that they are size limited. They are expected to fit in pockets (at least for guys), and they still need to provide all the other functions expected of them. P&Ss can be larger, and can use better lenses, larger sensors to their advantage. Perhaps whatever replaced the CMOS sensors will be able to make smaller sensors as good as FF today, but until those disruptive technologies arrive, we're stuck with incremental improvement.

A lot of friends use the phone as the primary camera already, but the quality of the pictures taken are not very good and they don't back up the data. So, what happens if the phone is lost/damaged/stolen? They get a new one, but they've lost everything. There goes a few years of pictures. Maybe they can get some reduced sized versions from Facebook or whichever app they use, but those often aren't high enough resolution to print. And when those companies go out of business or change their model, there is no guarantee that those images would be preserved.

Photography is a mostly a hobby for me, and I do it to preserve memories. I might have a dozen pics of my grandparents, and a few dozen of my parents before they got married, and a few hundred of them since then. Now that I've had kids, I've snapped thousands of pictures. We take the best ones to create digital scrapbooks (easier to duplicate if the kids want their own copies later), and then print them. My kids are young, but they've already forgotten a lot and they get a kick from looking at the scrapbooks, which jog our memories and get the conversations going. Those conversations don't happen looking at an iPad. Quite a few friends have remarked how they wished they had scrapbooks/photo calendars like that, but they don't have the pictures to make it worthwhile. When film was king, everyone developed their rolls and got prints. Those prints usually were stored in shoeboxes in closets, under the bed, etc. but people still had them. What will people have to show the next generation?
 
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I've found the iphone images to be poor except under perfect lighting. Even a cheap point and shoot does better if the light starts to get challenging.

I'd be a bit shy about believing the hype based on past performance of the Iphone cameras.
 
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Well the interesting point for us lot is that they decided NOT to increase megapixels, but instead stayed at 8MP, and increased the size of the sensor and so the size of the pixels.

Also, the lens is now f/2.2 .

Both of which will give better low-light performance, as we all know.

Also apparently it has optical IS now.

And a better flash system, though flash doesn't interest me much.

Apparently it will also produce 28MP panorama images too.

I will be getting the iPhone 5S, but mainly because:

* My current phone is a 4-year-old shed
* I am invested in the iEcoSystem already : MacBook Pro Retina 13" and Apple TV, so it will integrate perfectly.

However, I won't be looking to use the iPhone as a serious walk-around camera. I am still impatiently awaiting the high-end EOS M for that.
 
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Random Orbits said:
I've never had an iPhone but I do use the wife's iPad, and it's too slow for sports and too noisy for indoor/low light situations.
iphone have better camera than ipads. I have ipad 3 and both iphone 4S and 5 are better.

Mt Spokane Photography said:
I've found the iphone images to be poor except under perfect lighting. Even a cheap point and shoot does better if the light starts to get challenging.

Its not always about the best IQ. If you do a direct comparison, iphone 5 (or even Sony xperia, which has the best camera in smartphones) will never be able to match the IQ of P&S (forget SLRs and mirrorless). However it has become good enough for most people (if not great) which combined with convenience push it above P&S. Phone spends considerable time of day in your hands and is handy when you don't even have time to take the camera out of bag. I and majority of people cannot keep camera in the pocket 24X7 (in addition to phone, wallet and keys). So, even though I always have/had P&S in the bag, I realized I did not get chance to shoot it even once past year. I used SLR for 95% of my photography and iphone5 for rest of the 'to capture a moment instantly' photography. It is also because I mostly photograph family, travel, nature and astro (places where I can choose to carry SLR easily). Looks like I represent the majority behavior and could be the reason for the demise of the P&S. Also important to the equation is the fact that even my 18 month old learned to take photos on iphone (simple and intuitive controls). I being a total control freak hate it about iphone but majority of people like it. They really just want to point and shoot avoiding all that fiddling with controls.
 
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I hate my iPhone 5, the 5s should have been the iPhone 5 no doubt. So now I will wait for the 6. Damn you apple! But thanks for sharing the specs on the camera on the 5s looks like a decent step forward for apple. Finally starting to show me what I expected from apple.
 
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kennephoto said:
I hate my iPhone 5, the 5s should have been the iPhone 5 no doubt. So now I will wait for the 6. Damn you apple! But thanks for sharing the specs on the camera on the 5s looks like a decent step forward for apple. Finally starting to show me what I expected from apple.
Its never worth to upgrade every year anyways (unless you are fanboy), esp. with costs involved in breaking the 2 yr contract (assuming you are in US).
I too hate apple for high handedness and product hysteria they whip up but I hate other smartphones more (and yes, I have tried all dead/alive mobile OSs)
 
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Fleetie said:
Well the interesting point for us lot is that they decided NOT to increase megapixels, but instead stayed at 8MP, and increased the size of the sensor and so the size of the pixels.

Also, the lens is now f/2.2 .

Both of which will give better low-light performance, as we all know.

Also apparently it has optical IS now.

And a better flash system, though flash doesn't interest me much.

Apparently it will also produce 28MP panorama images too.

I will be getting the iPhone 5S, but mainly because:

* My current phone is a 4-year-old shed
* I am invested in the iEcoSystem already : MacBook Pro Retina 13" and Apple TV, so it will integrate perfectly.

However, I won't be looking to use the iPhone as a serious walk-around camera. I am still impatiently awaiting the high-end EOS M for that.

The 5 has f2.4, not much difference. It's digital IS, not optical.

At least the flash might be usable. The current one is utterly useless.
 
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batotman said:
Only, if you're kidding.

Their promo photos never look like the actual ones. I'm guessing around the iPhone 10S we finally see the death of the P&S.
P&S are not going to die even with iphone 10S. Due to size (thickness) constraint, iphones will never be able to match the IQ of P&S projecting current technologies.
They will just see a major dip in sales and their turf taken by shrinking and improving mirrorless cameras
 
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I didn't know about the IS, will need to read more about that. However I did read that the sensor is 15% larger and the aperture of the lens has gone from f/2.5 to f/2.2. All that equates to a 33% increase in light sensitivity. Sounds good but isn't that just 1/3 of a stop more? We all know how insignificant that really is. Might make a small difference in low light situations? (I think I'll do an experiment ...)

10fps sounds like 1DX territory but it takes 10 and spits out a few of the best. So you don't actually get to keep the full 10? And what is the buffer like? Does it take 10 then shut down or let you shoot continuous for longer than 1s? Could just be marketing gimmekry.

The iphone5 camera (what i have) is pretty good and I wont be upgrading anytime soon. Especially not for 1/3 of a stop and one extra LED!

The improvements are welcome though and it's nice to see Apple thinking about photographers and not just bumping up the resolution.
 
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unfocused said:
New iPhone:
10 frames per second; in-camera stabilization, white and amber flashes that can be balanced with ambient light, f2.2 lens, larger sensor, slow-motion video. (If I got the specs right)

I've been wishing for years that DSLR flashes would adjust their white point to match the available lighting. Here's hoping that at least the concept (though certainly not the implementation) will end up in Speedlite flashes one of these years.


unfocused said:
Is this the final nail in the coffin for Powershots and other Point and Shoots?

I pretty much declared those dead five years ago.


unfocused said:
Should Canon and Nikon worry about their DSLR sales? Try to think outside your own personal prejudices and look at it objectively. What do you think?


Let me start by saying that I love my iPhone 5, and I love the ease with which I can get lots of day-to-day pictures with it. I use my iPhone 5 to grab pictures of random things when I don't have my DSLR with me. It shoots reasonably good photos within limits. Phones work great for photography when you're shooting pictures of people who are only a few feet away in good lighting.

But a replacement for my DSLR, it is not. Camera phones cannot possibly compete with DSLRs in two key areas: distance photography and low-light photography.


Distance photography

Camera phones typically have no optical zoom. This means that when you zoom in by a factor of 2, that 8 MP camera effectively becomes a 2 MP camera. It's like shooting with a 33mm prime lens, give or take. You can always crop it in post, but if you really needed a 300mm lens, you're just not going to be happy with the results even with a DSLR.

You'll never see a pro photographer shooting a wedding from the balcony of a church using a 33mm prime (same field of view as an iPhone 5) except when shooting some establishing shots. For the good stuff, they'd be shooting with a 135mm lens at a bare minimum, and probably more like a 70-200 or 70-300. For the same reason, you won't ever see anyone seriously photographing a wedding with a camera phone. Just for grins, I tried it a couple of weeks ago at a friend's wedding. The bride and groom were little more than a couple of blurry smudges. I deleted the photos.

Similarly, when I take pictures of the Pope saying the Angelis prayer next Sunday, I'll be using my 6D, not my iPhone 5. From any angle that doesn't involve seeing up his nose, he'd cover only a handful of pixels on my iPhone 5. On my 6D with a 70-300L and a 3x extender, before cropping, I expect to be approaching a medium-close-up from... IIRC near the first fountain, roughly a third the way across the piazza.

For many people who buy point-and-shoot cameras, zoom might not matter much. Many of them use the zoom infrequently anyway, and even for the ones who do use it, the convenience of not having to carry one piece of gear can outweigh the inability to get certain shots. For the sorts of people who are willing to spend the money for a DSLR, though, reach matters.

And to the extent that you can improve the digital zoom by adding more pixels, your low-light performance is worse, because there's an inherent tradeoff between pixel count and noise. Which brings us to the second area in which camera phones cannot realistically compete with a DSLR.


Low-light photography

There's simply no way to cram enough light gathering into a sensor that size to take shots that approach my 6D. The sensor is only about 18 square millimeters, by my quick calculation (1.5 microns squared per pixel times 8 million pixels). Compare this with 855 square millimeters for a 6D sensor, and the 6D takes in 50 times more light. Even if you don't do any binning of pixels and shoot with the 6D at a wider angle so that the subject covers the same number of pixels, that would still be 339 square millimeters, or about 19x as much light. So even if the iPhone 5's sensor miraculously captured every single photon perfectly, it would still be getting only a tenth as much light per pixel, and thus will still have much worse SNR. And although you can do a lot with noise reduction, it only goes so far before you start having to take long exposures that smear badly.

I can't see any phone ever being able to approach the pictures I took at the party after my friend's wedding, many of which involved little more than candlelight. You just can't shoot shots like that with a camera phone without unacceptable amounts of grain.

For those two reasons, I can't see a camera phone replacing my DSLR for the foreseeable future. If somebody builds a cell phone in which the entire back of the phone is a microlensed light field array or something, I might reevaluate that statement, but even then, probably not.

This is not to say that camera phones don't replace certain limited uses of DSLRs, but I would expect them to basically destroy the point-and-shoot market while leaving the DSLR market largely untouched. People buy a DSLR because they care about image quality enough to lug a suitcase full of heavy glass around. They're not going to give up that image quality just because they are already carrying a cell phone camera in much the same way that someone who spends $200 on a bottle of champagne every week is unlikely to give up drinking champagne merely because his hotel offers free Budweiser to its guests.
 
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The reason for the poor sales of point & shoot cameras is more to do with the lack of interest of casual shooters, in any serious camera functions... any decent P&S camera will take better photos than a smartphone ... but casual shooters don't care about most of the stuff a serious photog would, the casual shooters only care about capturing the 'moment' they like and share as fast possible with a device that they are already carrying, regardless of the 'quality' of the image ... like my wife who likes the images of her iPhone ... the other day she took an image of a flower which to me looked very ordinary and bland, but she liked it coz it reminds her of a moment she cherishes ... she doesn't care about shutter speeds, fstops, ISO etc ... I think a vast majority are like that, for them carrying another device (P&S camera) is more of a pain, while they can 'get by' with their camera phone. A case in point is the Samsung Galaxy smartphone with a zoom lens, which has far better options (as a camera) than any smartphone, but it isn't selling like hot cakes.
 
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Rienzphotoz said:
The reason for the poor sales of point & shoot cameras is more to do with the lack of interest of casual shooters, in any serious camera functions... any decent P&S camera will take better photos than a smartphone ... but casual shooters don't care about most of the stuff a serious photog would, the casual shooters only care about capturing the 'moment' they like and share as fast possible with a device that they are already carrying, regardless of the 'quality' of the image ... like my wife who likes the images of her iPhone ... the other day she took an image of a flower which to me looked very ordinary and bland, but she liked it coz it reminds her of a moment she cherishes ... she doesn't care about shutter speeds, fstops, ISO etc ... I think a vast majority are like that, for them carrying another device (P&S camera) is more of a pain, while they can 'get by' with their camera phone. A case in point is the Samsung Galaxy smartphone with a zoom lens, which has far better options (as a camera) than any smartphone, but it isn't selling like hot cakes.

Reinz...I think you've hit it the nail right on the head with your comments....the average person just wants a photo of decent quality and they don't want to carry around a phone and a camera, and that is what smart phones can provide now days.(4 or 5 years ago, "no", the quality wasn't quite there yet, but today's smartphones "yes".

As a serious photographer, even I have found myself leaving the dslr at home and just taking my Samsung galaxy 8mp with me when I'm out with the family..etc....it's just so much more convenient and practical.
 
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Might be the death knell for compact cameras... don't anticipate it'll come anywhere close to a DSLR for flexibility, form or IQ.

I can't say for sure as I haven't handled one, but I remember lots of death knells, how APS would kill off 135, how compact video modes would kill off camcorders etc etc.

I'm confident that for many casual applications an iphone 5s will be good enough.

Delusions aside, how many DSLR users consider themselves happy snappers?
 
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