Nikon D850 - sensor no better than D810. EEEK!

[Mikehit]

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

Nikon have made no progress in 4 years, is no better than the D810 and worse than the 5D4.
Are Nikon selling their customers short?
Will we see people flooding from Nikon to Canon?

Am I taking the ****?

 

[privatebydesign]

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

Nikon have made no progress in 4 years, is no better than the D810 and worse than the 5D4.
Are Nikon selling their customers short?
Will we see people flooding from Nikon to Canon?

Am I taking the ****?

Kind of interesting after the 6D - 6D MkII comparisons and results that ended up generating so much 6D MkII negativity. As always that negativity seems to have been widely ignored by many who are churning out superb images with the thing and love the new features....

 

[OSOK]

How do you figure it is worse? If it is exactly the same as the D810, while taking on an additional 10MP, that's a big win. It may very well be slightly better than the D810.

We're talking a nearly 5DSR level of resolution, but with sensor performance that is better than the 5D Mark 4. That's a win win.

What does the 5DSR do? It still has an off chip ADC, maxes out at ISO 6400, and has bad shadow noise and dynamic range. Also 5 fps max.

There's no comparison whatsoever for low ISO high dynamic range landscapes between the 5DSR and the D810. The D810 is radically cleaner. This is not subjective.

D850 is have your cake and eat it. It's the do-all camera body. 45 Megapixels with 7fps and optionally 9fps, with DR at the D810 level? With max ISO ratings of 25,600. I'm not sure there's any possible way Canon users can bring this camera down to justify the 5D Mark 4.

 

[Sharlin]

To be fair, it's a bit different situation. The D810 sensor is already very good, while everybody agrees that the 6D/6D2 low-ISO DR isn't optimal and the fact that really adds insult to injury is that all other newest-gen Canon sensors have better DR. The D750 sensor remains the king of Nikon FF sensors though.

 

[tr573]

How do you figure it is worse? If it is exactly the same as the D810, while taking on an additional 10MP, that's a big win. It may very well be slightly better than the D810.

We're talking a nearly 5DSR level of resolution, but with sensor performance that is better than the 5D Mark 4. That's a win win.

What does the 5DSR do? It still has an off chip ADC, maxes out at ISO 6400, and has bad shadow noise and dynamic range. Also 5 fps max.

There's no comparison whatsoever for low ISO high dynamic range landscapes between the 5DSR and the D810. The D810 is radically cleaner. This is not subjective.

D850 is have your cake and eat it. It's the do-all camera body. 45 Megapixels with 7fps and optionally 9fps, with DR at the D810 level? With max ISO ratings of 25,600. I'm not sure there's any possible way Canon users can bring this camera down to justify the 5D Mark 4.

It's slightly worse (D810/D850) at higher ISO DR than the 5DIV sensor, but by a ludicrously slim margin (about as ludicrously slim as the 1/6th stop x-sync difference everyone loves to beat on the 6d/6d2 over)

at base ISO (64) , it remains a juggernaut that handily spanks the competition like the D810 before it

 

[OSOK]

To be fair, it's a bit different situation. The D810 sensor is already very good, while everybody agrees that the 6D/6D2 low-ISO DR isn't optimal and the fact that really adds insult to injury is that all other newest-gen Canon sensors have better DR. The D750 sensor remains the king of Nikon FF sensors though.

I'm curious by what metric do Canon users determine that Canon sensors have better dynamic range? Every single review site, tester, blogger, vlogger out there concludes Nikon's Sony sensors have more dynamic range. This has been tested extensively, and raw files have been available for individual user comparison for a long time.

 

[tr573]

To be fair, it's a bit different situation. The D810 sensor is already very good, while everybody agrees that the 6D/6D2 low-ISO DR isn't optimal and the fact that really adds insult to injury is that all other newest-gen Canon sensors have better DR. The D750 sensor remains the king of Nikon FF sensors though.

I'm curious by what metric do Canon users determine that Canon sensors have better dynamic range? Every single review site, tester, blogger, vlogger out there concludes Nikon's Sony sensors have more dynamic range. This has been tested extensively, and raw files have been available for individual user comparison for a long time.

i think they meant "better than previous canon sensors" , which every other new APS-C & FF release (apart from the 6D2) has had

 

[OSOK]

It's slightly worse (D810/D850) at higher ISO DR than the 5DIV sensor, but by a ludicrously slim margin (about as ludicrously slim as the 1/6th stop x-sync difference everyone loves to beat on the 6d/6d2 over)

at base ISO (64) , it remains a juggernaut that handily spanks the competition like the D810 before it

Ah, slightly worse at high ISO, where the maximum dynamic range achievable is already too low to be of any practical use.

 

[privatebydesign]

To be fair, it's a bit different situation. The D810 sensor is already very good, while everybody agrees that the 6D/6D2 low-ISO DR isn't optimal and the fact that really adds insult to injury is that all other newest-gen Canon sensors have better DR. The D750 sensor remains the king of Nikon FF sensors though.

I'm curious by what metric do Canon users determine that Canon sensors have better dynamic range? Every single review site, tester, blogger, vlogger out there concludes Nikon's Sony sensors have more dynamic range. This has been tested extensively, and raw files have been available for individual user comparison for a long time.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9

In the range I use cameras most 100-800 iso I am pretty happy with my system choice.

And again, in the range I most use a camera I'd be happy with a 5D MkIV against the new D850.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850

Indeed the D850 from D800/810 is looking more and more like a 6D - 6D MkII move, the DR is not appreciably different just the body features. Canon were mercilessly crucified for that yet the D850 is super hyped.........

 

[OSOK]

My prediction - the D850 will be better on noise than the D810. DR will be the same. However, it will not be as ISO invariant.

 

[Sharlin]

I'm curious by what metric do Canon users determine that Canon sensors have better dynamic range? Every single review site, tester, blogger, vlogger out there concludes Nikon's Sony sensors have more dynamic range. This has been tested extensively, and raw files have been available for individual user comparison for a long time.

Better than previous Canon sensors and the 6D2 sensor. I should probably have said "improved".

 

[littleB]

Yeah, the 850 sensor is worse than 750, yet several times price difference. Nikon is doomed!

 

[tr573]

Indeed the D850 from D800/810 is looking more and more like a 6D - 6D MkII move, the DR is not appreciably different just the body features. Canon were mercilessly crucified for that yet the D850 is super hyped.........

I am perfectly happy with my Canon system, but that is disingenuous man. It's not appreciably better this time around on either refresh, but one of those refreshes had a predecessor that was best in industry for that metric, and one of them had a predecessor that was hohum in that metric. Slightly different story.

Edit: Also, Canon has vastly improved all of their other new sensors in said metric. Nikon has not. If Nikon released a slew of other new bodies (including APS-C ones) that blew the D810 away in DR, then released a D850 that was the same, the situation would be more akin to what people are angry at Canon for with the 6D2.

 

[Don Haines]

The 850 sensor is no better than the 810 sensor?

NIKON IS DOOMED!
CANON IS DOOMED!

Now everyone will have to shift to Olympus!

WE ARE ALL DOOMED!

 

[YuengLinger]

The 850 sensor is no better than the 810 sensor?

NIKON IS DOOMED!
CANON IS DOOMED!
...
WE ARE ALL DOOMED!

But, klearly, Nikon is most DOOMED.

 

[Don Haines]

The 850 sensor is no better than the 810 sensor?

NIKON IS DOOMED!
CANON IS DOOMED!
...
WE ARE ALL DOOMED!

But, klearly, Nikon is most DOOMED.

Yes, I feel sorry for all those Nikon users who will be forced to get a camera with more features and better specs.......

 

[raptor3x]

It's slightly worse (D810/D850) at higher ISO DR than the 5DIV sensor, but by a ludicrously slim margin (about as ludicrously slim as the 1/6th stop x-sync difference everyone loves to beat on the 6d/6d2 over)

at base ISO (64) , it remains a juggernaut that handily spanks the competition like the D810 before it

Ah, slightly worse at high ISO, where the maximum dynamic range achievable is already too low to be of any practical use.

Dynamic range at high ISO is generally used as a proxy for shadow SNR which is where the main differences come from in high ISO performance. At low ISO settings, DR is more useful as a measure of how much we can push the deep shadows.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The current state of sensor manufacturing is close to the limits of what can be done, at least for a price we can afford. New cameras are going to have additional features, and more MP, but unless there is a big break thru in sensor technology, I do not expect to see major improvements. Increasing the photosite count without losing sensitivity is a gain.

I hope its a good camera and that Nikon does well with it, but I'm not tempted.

 

[OSOK]

This whole thread is making a declaration about the D850 sensor performance which has not even been tested yet.

It references a website that clearly states it is merely providing an estimate about the D850 sensor. An estimate. Aka, a guess.

 

[tr573]

This whole thread is making a declaration about the D850 sensor performance which has not even been tested yet.

It references a website that clearly states it is merely providing an estimate about the D850 sensor. An estimate. Aka, a guess.

eh, everyone went nuts over Bill's preliminary 6D2 results too. (And although many here cautioned just as you are, and some dismissed them out of hand, his results were pretty much spot on)