Nikon D850 - sensor no better than D810. EEEK!

[snoke]

The current state of sensor manufacturing is close to the limits of what can be done, at least for a price we can afford.

This. 100%. All new camera close. Canon 5D Mark IV, Nikon D810, Nikon D850, Sony A7R Mark II, all close on graph. Graph these four, big mess.

but unless there is a big break thru in sensor technology, I do not expect to see major improvements. Increasing the photosite count without losing sensitivity is a gain.

100% right. No more big change until better new sensor design.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2,Sony%20ILCE-9

At ISO >=640, Sony have some special change.

From 200-500, all very close. Under 200 it strange

 

[Sharlin]

The way the D850 is specced out, the 5D4 will need to be $2,400 or $2,500 to be a reasonable value comparison. I'd want around $1,000 discount for the loss of 2fps, 15 megapixels, less AF performance, tilt screen, the AA filter, likely less DR, 4K and more.

That 2fps costs you almost $1000 extra unless you already own a D5. Besides the battery grip itself, you need to buy a battery and a charger.

 

[Jopa]

Can you please also explain why should I be feeling ripped off as I am just About to spend $2850 on 5D IV body?

Why? Because he's trolling - that's why Too many trolls here recently...

 

[LonelyBoy]

Can you please also explain why should I be feeling ripped off as I am just About to spend $2850 on 5D IV body?

Why? Because he's trolling - that's why Too many trolls here recently...

They do seem to have gotten more numerous once the 6D2 rumors kicked off in earnest.

 

[SecureGSM]

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33166.msg683625#msg683625

Can you please also explain why should I be feeling ripped off as I am just About to spend $2850 on 5D IV body?

Why? Because he's trolling - that's why Too many trolls here recently...

They do seem to have gotten more numerous once the 6D2 rumors kicked off in earnest.

 

[JohanCruyff]

No 16bit RAW? Nikon is doomed!

 

[Yiannis A - Greece]

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

 

[bclaff]

This whole thread is making a declaration about the D850 sensor performance which has not even been tested yet.

It references a website that clearly states it is merely providing an estimate about the D850 sensor. An estimate. Aka, a guess.

In the future I (PhotonsToPhotos.net) should probably say "preliminary" rather than "estimated" since the values are actual measurements from raw files, just not the files I actually use for final PDR values.
Gaps in the data reflect the fact that I don't have NEF files for every ISO setting.
Final values tend to be a bit higher than preliminary, but some of these NEFs were taken with High ISO NR turned on and I test with it off so only time will tell.

 

[bclaff]

This entire thread is laughable. Did no one even read the notes?

"Notes:
(e) indcates estimated values that are not based on the normal test protocol. For example, the Nikon D850."

This is the same kind of garbage ppl complained about with the 6DMK2 tests, but apparently as long as it's used to blast Nikon it's ok. Seems like the fanboys/trolling on both sides has gotten out of hand recently.

They're still based on measurements taken from D850 RAW files. Like others have stated it's only estimated because it's not from a production camera and the images weren't taken with the normal protocol, but all that's really needed for a DR measurement is for some of the pixels to hit the saturation point and then to take readings from the masked pixels for the read noise. Historically, the initial estimated values are almost always the same or just very slightly lower than the final results. It's the same as when everyone here was ripping into cgarcia when he posted the first 6D2 measurements over on FredMiranda. People may not like the numbers but both cgarcia and bclaff have a history of being almost dead on with their early measurements.

Just a technical clarification, unlike DxOMark (and Garcia) read noise does not enter directly into the measurement of Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR). PDR is measured based on the Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) and that SNR is not at signal equals zero. FWIW, this is the chief reason I think that PDR is a better measure than DxOMark Landscape score.

 

[Orangutan]

Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products

What do you mean intentionally crippled? Considering how long Canon has stayed at the top, and their financial stability, It certainly appears that they make decisions based on good business principles. You can't take a small loss on every unit and "make it up on volume." Like others, I'm slightly disappointed that the 6D2 (apparently) did not have the same sensor tech as the 5D4 and 80D. The number of photographers limited by the low-ISO DR of their camera is very very small, and I'm probably not in that small group.

we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc

Those qualities are expensive to provide. We all want all the features and support at a low price, but that violates everything known about business (and possibly entropy, as well).

 

[Hector1970]

He zero day purchased it and then I assume that it's performance was not much better than a 5D III.
I'm happy enough with the 5D IV. I lost my 5DIII to the sea so I had an excuse to buy it. It's just a small and not wow upgrade to the 5DIII. To be honest based on taking thousands of photos I see little real world improvement.
Canon are very successful with their upgrade methods so far of incremental improvements. For me it's the lens sell the brand. The cameras are good , reliable and easy to use.
That Nikon looks a good camera. Sony have more potential to impact Canon. Once they have a range of top end 2.8's 300, 400, 500, 600 their frame rates on mirrorless and ISO performance are impressive. Not too many people will be able to afford them but if professionals move to them so will amateurs.

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

 

[SecureGSM]

really? I am surprised to hear that. Haven't you noticed a big difference in High ISO files quality (ISO 5000+, shadows, noise, banding)?
Have you noticed better AF tracking ability of 5D IV over 5D III?
Improved metering? much better low light AF sensitivity (to -3EV, camera does not struggle focusing as much in very low light)?
Have you noticed that at least some of AF points are now F8 capable?
Better buffer capacity?
there are some improvements that people do not talk about much but they are substantial:

your lenses produce approx. 7-8% sharper images at pixel level. that means that you can print larger and view your images at 1:1 level on very large screens .
just imaging that all your lenses got massive 7-8% sharpness boost for free. that is massive boost.

or even remote shutter release port location.. the feature that seems too small to talk about. well, with L-bracket fitted to your camera, it could be real pain in the neck setting camera on tripod in portrait position with remote shutter release cable attached. it gets in the way. not anymore as with 5D IV the port was relocated to the front of the camera.

5D IV owners love their cameras. it is nearly impossible to get one at decent price slightly used.
People are hesitant to let it go for more that 10-15% discount no matter what.
all slightly used reasonably priced 5D IV bodies being snappppped in Australia in a matter of hours, not days.
there is a single used 5D IV body available on classifieds site nationwide and that one is priced higher than you can buy one brand new

there is none used 5D IV bodies on eBay Australia for days now. there are like 170 used 5D IV bodies available globally

Does this sound like people are willing to get rid of their 5D IV cameras? I am not seeing this happening.

He zero day purchased it and then I assume that it's performance was not much better than a 5D III.
I'm happy enough with the 5D IV. I lost my 5DIII to the sea so I had an excuse to buy it. It's just a small and not wow upgrade to the 5DIII. To be honest based on taking thousands of photos I see little real world improvement.

 

[scyrene]

To be honest based on taking thousands of photos I see little real world improvement.
Canon are very successful with their upgrade methods so far of incremental improvements.

Do you believe upgrading to any current body from any manufacturer would provide anything but an incremental improvement? Do you believe that any new body will produce photos that show real world improvement in more than a minority of shots?

We're going round in circles. I've said it in past years, but here I feel I must say it again: given the narrative is that Canon's cameras are somehow subpar compared to the competition, how come there isn't a huge body of work using those "better" bodies that is clearly identifiable and superior?

This is a question to all those who are moaning about "crippling" etc (and may I say again to those using it, that is a really gross term, not to mention utterly inaccurate).

 

[LonelyBoy]

He zero day purchased it and then I assume that it's performance was not much better than a 5D III.
I'm happy enough with the 5D IV. I lost my 5DIII to the sea so I had an excuse to buy it. It's just a small and not wow upgrade to the 5DIII. To be honest based on taking thousands of photos I see little real world improvement.
Canon are very successful with their upgrade methods so far of incremental improvements. For me it's the lens sell the brand. The cameras are good , reliable and easy to use.
That Nikon looks a good camera. Sony have more potential to impact Canon. Once they have a range of top end 2.8's 300, 400, 500, 600 their frame rates on mirrorless and ISO performance are impressive. Not too many people will be able to afford them but if professionals move to them so will amateurs.

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

No, if it was barely an upgrade, why didn't you save like half the price of the body and get another 5D3? Why did you buy the 5D4 for thousands more?

 

[Hector1970]

That's exactly the point, it's all very well to look at specs but to really see you have to buy and use the camera. I found after doing that there isn't really much real world difference between the 5D III and 5D IV. Maybe because it's because I'm careful about taking photographs that I don't completely under expose. I really see no difference at all in focusing ability. Yes I'd believe a 5D III would have been much better valu for money. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the 5D IV it's just it's a minimal upgrade. The 5DIII was a good upgrade on the 5D II.

He zero day purchased it and then I assume that it's performance was not much better than a 5D III.
I'm happy enough with the 5D IV. I lost my 5DIII to the sea so I had an excuse to buy it. It's just a small and not wow upgrade to the 5DIII. To be honest based on taking thousands of photos I see little real world improvement.
Canon are very successful with their upgrade methods so far of incremental improvements. For me it's the lens sell the brand. The cameras are good , reliable and easy to use.
That Nikon looks a good camera. Sony have more potential to impact Canon. Once they have a range of top end 2.8's 300, 400, 500, 600 their frame rates on mirrorless and ISO performance are impressive. Not too many people will be able to afford them but if professionals move to them so will amateurs.

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

No, if it was barely an upgrade, why didn't you save like half the price of the body and get another 5D3? Why did you buy the 5D4 for thousands more?

 

[Talys]

That's exactly the point, it's all very well to look at specs but to really see you have to buy and use the camera. I found after doing that there isn't really much real world difference between the 5D III and 5D IV. Maybe because it's because I'm careful about taking photographs that I don't completely under expose. I really see no difference at all in focusing ability. Yes I'd believe a 5D III would have been much better valu for money. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the 5D IV it's just it's a minimal upgrade. The 5DIII was a good upgrade on the 5D II.

Didn't you purchase your camera from store that allows returns or exchanges within a period of time? I can't say what it's like in your area, of course; in mine, I buy stuff from local retailers, almost all of whom have at least a 7 day full refund policy (most are about 2 weeks for refund or exchange), or Amazon, that has 30 days.

Keep in mind that we're in the age of diminishing returns and incremental iterations for sensors, so until there's some massive change in sensor tech, you're likely to say the same thing for a while.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other improvements possible, and it just comes down to whether any of those are useful or worth the bucks for you.

 

[Jopa]

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33166.msg683625#msg683625

Can you please also explain why should I be feeling ripped off as I am just About to spend $2850 on 5D IV body?

Why? Because he's trolling - that's why Too many trolls here recently...

They do seem to have gotten more numerous once the 6D2 rumors kicked off in earnest.

So true, every single word.

 

[Yiannis A - Greece]

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

Dear "lonelyboy"
i'm not disappointed by my 5D Mk4, i'm disappointed by Canon's practique to give us what we want drop-by-drop. I've always been a zero-day-buyer because i can and life is too short to wait. I never buy Nikon products because, i don't like Nikon products. Acting the same way, i never buy German cars, no matter what reviews say about them...etc etc etc!
Why were you so sure i would not give you an answer? I'm a very serious bussinessman and very serious as a person (generally speaking) and i never say something just to troll or make some noise.

Anyway, it's another lovely greek summer night and the sea in front of me looks terrific so, i'll stop writing and concentrate on relaxing.

All my best wishes.

Yours sincerely
Yiannis.

 

[Yiannis A - Greece]

Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products

What do you mean intentionally crippled? Considering how long Canon has stayed at the top, and their financial stability, It certainly appears that they make decisions based on good business principles. You can't take a small loss on every unit and "make it up on volume." Like others, I'm slightly disappointed that the 6D2 (apparently) did not have the same sensor tech as the 5D4 and 80D. The number of photographers limited by the low-ISO DR of their camera is very very small, and I'm probably not in that small group.

we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc

Those qualities are expensive to provide. We all want all the features and support at a low price, but that violates everything known about business (and possibly entropy, as well).

Dear "Orangutan"
by calling the latest Canon DSLRs "intentionaly crippled" i mean that Canon is not letting the full potential unleashed, they just go "drop-by-drop", i think it's a marketing strategy to make us buy every next model they release! How difficult would be for a giant company, to give everything the public asks for from a camera when some guys named "Magic Lantern Team" do it with practically zero resources and only in their leisure time???
I don't know if Canon takes decisions based on good business principals or they're driven by the momentum they've gathered all these years by making trustworthy, pioneering and quality superb products. The competition becomes very stiff day-by-day and some more flexible and offensive strategies must be taken into consideration!

Responding to your second remark, i'd like to inform you that i never asked for a cheap product or a bargain Ferrari with the price tag of a Fiat. Good things come at a (usually) high price which i'm willing to pay 'cause i can, i like to and i want to.

Wishing you all the best and a nice evening wherever you are.

Yiannis