Nikon D850 - sensor no better than D810. EEEK!

[LonelyBoy]

Dear friends,

the only (simple and costless) thing, Canon has to do to make D850 lose most of its appeal, is to release the much anticipated but, unfortunately, hoax firmware that was "programmed" to be released just before Easter time this year!
I'm just a little bit afraid that, dear Canon has started a new technique of releasing intentionally crippled products, giving a couple more features every time. It's a realy bad time for demonstrating marketing strategy of this kind, as incomes around the globe go down and cost of living gets skyrocketed!
As a practically zero-day-adopter of 5D Mk4, i hope that we won't get dissapointed again, waiting for the next 5DSr or 5D Mk5, that will have a liiittle bit more features to close a part of the gap the previous one has left behind.
We'll never jump ship (at least me and some of my friends) cause we're fanboys of Canon for it's color science, reliability, repairability, quality, feeling in hands etc but, dear Canon, get our sweet money, give us what we want (we didn't ask for moon and other planets) and don't let us beg/pray like children under Christmas tree every time...

All my best from shiny, summery, magnificent Greece!

Yours
Yiannis A.

If you were disappointed in the 5D4, why did you "practically zero-day adopt" it? For that price you could have gotten the oh-so-ballyhooed D750 and a nice lens or two, then started selling off your Canon gear for more Nikon lenses. Why didn't you do that? That's a serious question, so please do give an answer if you can (I don't think you will).

Dear "lonelyboy"
i'm not disappointed by my 5D Mk4, i'm disappointed by Canon's practique to give us what we want drop-by-drop. I've always been a zero-day-buyer because i can and life is too short to wait. I never buy Nikon products because, i don't like Nikon products. Acting the same way, i never buy German cars, no matter what reviews say about them...etc etc etc!
Why were you so sure i would not give you an answer? I'm a very serious bussinessman and very serious as a person (generally speaking) and i never say something just to troll or make some noise.

Anyway, it's another lovely greek summer night and the sea in front of me looks terrific so, i'll stop writing and concentrate on relaxing.

All my best wishes.

Yours sincerely
Yiannis.

I was sure because you're the first person to actually answer that question. However, it's unsatisfying because "I don't like Nikon products" isn't a reason, it's the description. What don't you like about Nikon products? My suspicion is, you want the shovelful of features that Nikon and Sony include, with the reliability, ergonomics, and support of Canon. It's really a "want your cake and eat it to" situation. The car equivalent would be wanting the reliability of the Japanese cars with the driving dynamics and toys of the Germans - you don't get both; the companies devote their resources to different places and you pick your priorities.

It's also why I'm so dismissive of people constantly bringing up the D750 or GH5 over and over without buying them - if those bodies were really so great, people would be buying them instead of whining that Canon (supposedly) can't equal them. The fact that people would rather throw tantrums and keep buying Canon tells me they don't really want those other bodies; they want Canon. Which means Canon correctly applied their development resources.

 

[NancyP]

talys wins the internet today:
"At the end of the day, what you have on both .. ends of the camera body is far more important than two thirds of an EV in DR or an extra frame a second. "

 

[Tugela]

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

Nikon have made no progress in 4 years, is no better than the D810 and worse than the 5D4.
Are Nikon selling their customers short?
Will we see people flooding from Nikon to Canon?

Am I taking the ****?

Modern camera advancements are primarily in the processors used, not the sensors. Sensors are a mature technology, so you are going to see very modest improvements in time in that area. The big changes will come as the processors improve in power and efficiency. More computing power means that the camera will be capable of more performance overall.

This is why MILCs will eventually replace DSLRs. The camera of the future will be very much a dance between the sensor and the processor, mirrors are just an obstacle to that. Cameras like the D850 are the last gasp of the Jurassic age of cameras. But change is coming.

 

[Loswr]

Cameras like the D850 are the last gasp of the Jurassic age of cameras. But change is coming.

Of course, the dinosaurs lasted 83 million years beyond the last gasp of Jurassic Period. Change is coming. So is the destruction of the earth by the sun as it evolves into a red giant. You have been warned.

 

[Aglet]

Modern camera advancements are primarily in the processors used, not the sensors. Sensors are a mature technology, so you are going to see very modest improvements in time in that area. The big changes will come as the processors improve in power and efficiency. More computing power means that the camera will be capable of more performance overall.

This is why MILCs will eventually replace DSLRs. The camera of the future will be very much a dance between the sensor and the processor, mirrors are just an obstacle to that. Cameras like the D850 are the last gasp of the Jurassic age of cameras. But change is coming.

The change is already here. It has been for a few years now. Good MILC performers like Fuji, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic have already shown they can compete with midrange DSLRs and the latest ML flagships can, in many ways, exceed DSLR performance by a considerable margin in some metrics like super high fps when you don't have to deal with big flappy mirror assemblies.
Hmmm... I should take my last dinosaur, the Pentax K-1, for a walk.

 

[Loswr]

The change is already here. It has been for a few years now. Good MILC performers like Fuji, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic have already shown they can compete with midrange DSLRs and the latest ML flagships can, in many ways, exceed DSLR performance by a considerable margin in some metrics like super high fps when you don't have to deal with big flappy mirror assemblies.

Funny thing is, no one has bothered to tell the camera-buying majority. Well, actually that's not true. The internet has told them, and is still telling them. But buyers don't seem to care all that much.

 

[Talys]

The change is already here. It has been for a few years now. Good MILC performers like Fuji, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic have already shown they can compete with midrange DSLRs and the latest ML flagships can, in many ways, exceed DSLR performance by a considerable margin in some metrics like super high fps when you don't have to deal with big flappy mirror assemblies.

Funny thing is, no one has bothered to tell the camera-buying majority. Well, actually that's not true. The internet has told them, and is still telling them. But buyers don't seem to care all that much.

Probably because amazing sensors and the coolest acronym soup in the camera bodies is awesome marketing hype that doesn't actually move the needle much in the department of, "this helps me take amazing photographs".

All the megapixels and DR in the world can't manufacture sorrow or joy, excitement or wonder. Nor can it move the sun -- or your feet!

 

[Aglet]

The change is already here. It has been for a few years now. Good MILC performers like Fuji, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic have already shown they can compete with midrange DSLRs and the latest ML flagships can, in many ways, exceed DSLR performance by a considerable margin in some metrics like super high fps when you don't have to deal with big flappy mirror assemblies.

Funny thing is, no one has bothered to tell the camera-buying majority. Well, actually that's not true. The internet has told them, and is still telling them. But buyers don't seem to care all that much.

Probably because amazing sensors and the coolest acronym soup in the camera bodies is awesome marketing hype that doesn't actually move the needle much in the department of, "this helps me take amazing photographs".

All the megapixels and DR in the world can't manufacture sorrow or joy, excitement or wonder. Nor can it move the sun -- or your feet!

Ultra fast frame-rate results moved some people to tears when they could see the intense struggle of a sporting event captured in the participants' faces.
Thank-you Olympus. I'd never been interested in that kind of photography before but being able to pick from frames only milliseconds apart is a very powerful tool.
And we'll all have that with 8k video... sort of.

 

[Mikehit]

Ultra fast frame-rate results moved some people to tears when they could see the intense struggle of a sporting event captured in the participants' faces.
Thank-you Olympus. I'd never been interested in that kind of photography before but being able to pick from frames only milliseconds apart is a very powerful tool.
And we'll all have that with 8k video... sort of.

Just because an Olympus with ultra-fast frame rates capture it, does not mean another camera could not have done. There comes a point where the only thing having faster frame rates is give you more images to sort through. Ask those same sports photographers if they will have time to go through 50 frames when the editorial desk is screaming to have the images on the internet before their competitors.

 

[Ian_of_glos]

The change is already here. It has been for a few years now. Good MILC performers like Fuji, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic have already shown they can compete with midrange DSLRs and the latest ML flagships can, in many ways, exceed DSLR performance by a considerable margin in some metrics like super high fps when you don't have to deal with big flappy mirror assemblies.

Funny thing is, no one has bothered to tell the camera-buying majority. Well, actually that's not true. The internet has told them, and is still telling them. But buyers don't seem to care all that much.

Probably because amazing sensors and the coolest acronym soup in the camera bodies is awesome marketing hype that doesn't actually move the needle much in the department of, "this helps me take amazing photographs".

All the megapixels and DR in the world can't manufacture sorrow or joy, excitement or wonder. Nor can it move the sun -- or your feet!

Ultra fast frame-rate results moved some people to tears when they could see the intense struggle of a sporting event captured in the participants' faces.
Thank-you Olympus. I'd never been interested in that kind of photography before but being able to pick from frames only milliseconds apart is a very powerful tool.
And we'll all have that with 8k video... sort of.

Well I thought that the very high frame rates on cameras such as the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II could only be achieved if focus and exposure are both fixed. If the camera refocuses between each shot then the frame rate drops to 18fps. Personally I cannot see the point of shooting fast action sports at 60fps if the shots are not in focus.

 

[Don Haines]

Ultra fast frame-rate results moved some people to tears when they could see the intense struggle of a sporting event captured in the participants' faces.

Yes, but my sport is wilderness canoeing...... super high burst rates are useless for capturing the look of serene bliss in a paddlers face as they glide along a quiet lake.....

But capturing birds at a feeder..... That's a different story! I have set my P/S up on a tripod in front of the feeder and used WiFi to remotely trigger it. In the 100FPS burst mode you can get some very interesting pictures of songbirds landing or taking off. When the wings move so fast, you really need such a high burst rate!

Like any tool, ultra fast frame rates are great to have if you need it......

 

[Jack Douglas]

Off the present focus of posts, but isn't the D850 AF point spread kind of weird?

Jack

 

[Sharlin]

Off the present focus of posts, but isn't the D850 AF point spread kind of weird?

How do you mean? Isn't it the same sensor and thus obviously the same layout as the D5?

 

[Talys]

But capturing birds at a feeder..... That's a different story! I have set my P/S up on a tripod in front of the feeder and used WiFi to remotely trigger it. In the 100FPS burst mode you can get some very interesting pictures of songbirds landing or taking off. When the wings move so fast, you really need such a high burst rate!

Like any tool, ultra fast frame rates are great to have if you need it......

For songbirds, my favorite shots are shortly after they've taken flight from a branch of a nearby tree, rather than at the feeder (the feeder makes the shot look too artificial, IMO)

A trick I've found is to put a big potted vine that's been looped through a trellis near the feeder, on a wheeled trolley, and move it around until it is staged for a nice shot. Most of the birds will take perch there, if only while they wait for other birds to feed. That makes for nice shots on the trellis or vine, and if they fly off, you catch them in flight! Biggest bonus is that you can rotate/move the vine, to catch the sun depending on where you're shooting from.

A way to get a nicely focused songbird in flight is to prefocus the camera where the bird will be (the majority will tend to leave the perch in the same direction; you can force it just by being on one side, too. If you study them, you'll see how they act just before they fly off; click away just before!

Another way to catch an in-focus shot of the front of a songbird is to be on an angle where the distance to a bird on the feeder is the same as one of their approach vectors. Keep the camera focused on the feeder, and you'll catch the bird flying in, in perfect focus.

Also, I find that a gimbal helps a lot if you need to be patient. Yes, I am weak.. my arms get tired, always seemingly just before the best moment LOL.

Anyways, my point is just that if you can't catch a bird in focus at 6fps, you're not going to catch it in focus at 9fps either If you're a professional, of course you'll take the highest fps option available (especially, sports), all things being equal. But all things aren't usually equal for the people who need high FPS the most, chief amongst them lens options. 600mm f/4 differences come to mind...

 

[Aglet]

But capturing birds at a feeder..... That's a different story! I have set my P/S up on a tripod in front of the feeder and used WiFi to remotely trigger it. In the 100FPS burst mode you can get some very interesting pictures of songbirds landing or taking off. When the wings move so fast, you really need such a high burst rate!

Like any tool, ultra fast frame rates are great to have if you need it......

For songbirds, my favorite shots are shortly after they've taken flight from a branch of a nearby tree, rather than at the feeder (the feeder makes the shot look too artificial, IMO)

A trick I've found is to put a big potted vine that's been looped through a trellis near the feeder, on a wheeled trolley, and move it around until it is staged for a nice shot. Most of the birds will take perch there, if only while they wait for other birds to feed. That makes for nice shots on the trellis or vine, and if they fly off, you catch them in flight! Biggest bonus is that you can rotate/move the vine, to catch the sun depending on where you're shooting from.

A way to get a nicely focused songbird in flight is to prefocus the camera where the bird will be (the majority will tend to leave the perch in the same direction; you can force it just by being on one side, too. If you study them, you'll see how they act just before they fly off; click away just before!

Another way to catch an in-focus shot of the front of a songbird is to be on an angle where the distance to a bird on the feeder is the same as one of their approach vectors. Keep the camera focused on the feeder, and you'll catch the bird flying in, in perfect focus.

Also, I find that a gimbal helps a lot if you need to be patient. Yes, I am weak.. my arms get tired, always seemingly just before the best moment LOL.

Anyways, my point is just that if you can't catch a bird in focus at 6fps, you're not going to catch it in focus at 9fps either If you're a professional, of course you'll take the highest fps option available (especially, sports), all things being equal. But all things aren't usually equal for the people who need high FPS the most, chief amongst them lens options. 600mm f/4 differences come to mind...

and if you used the EM1v2 with its pre-cap buffer you could catch the perfect take off or landing moment recording before you pressed the button all the way... Great feature for those I-know-it's-about-to-happen moments just like that. 60FPS fixed AF - yippee!
18FPS with AF - hard to beat that either.

TOO MUCH DATA for some of you? HAHA! too bad.
learn how to deal with it.
Give me the tool that gives me more options, I don't buy handicapped products any more.

 

[Talys]

and if you used the EM1v2 with its pre-cap buffer you could catch the perfect take off or landing moment recording before you pressed the button all the way... Great feature for those I-know-it's-about-to-happen moments just like that. 60FPS fixed AF - yippee!
18FPS with AF - hard to beat that either.

TOO MUCH DATA for some of you? HAHA! too bad.
learn how to deal with it.
Give me the tool that gives me more options, I don't buy handicapped products any more.

For most shots near a feeder, the perfect shots are neither just before takeoff or just after landing. They're a little after takeoff or some time before landing, hopefully with the feeder at the edge of the frame, where you're going to crop it out Or, they're when there's more than one bird on/near the feeder, and you capture some interesting interaction.

If I started recording at 18 fps at shutter half-press near a feeder, and waited for a songbird to take off, there would be, like, anywhere from 20 - 1,000 frames to sort through for each time a songbird landed. They can be there for a long time, or gone in a flash. A few of hours with the wife on the patio, I'd have like 50,000 frames to sort through. NO THANKS!

If you spend time without ever touching a camera just learning the things that make a particular birds take off, then keep one eye on the environment with the other eye on the viewfinder, you'll have a half dozen frames to pick through, with a good chunk in focus. If you want some good shots -- as in, interesting shots -- you'll spend a lot of time there, and dozens of birds will fly in and out, and you'll end up picking through a lot (hundreds!) of perfectly focused photos, just to grab maybe just a couple standouts. And that's just taking a half dozen or so with every fly in/fly out. Multiply by whatever factor you want with more FPS. Buffering before you press the button sounds like a massive battery hog, by the way.

If you like the Olympus -- Great! I don't think the camera really changes anything. The magic, keeping your sanity, or keeping it fun, should not be in this $4,000 setup versus that $4,000 setup. If you take joy in sorting through gigabytes of photos to pick the one perfect wing angle, all the power to you.

This feeder action shot was just one frame in 5, with 3 having both birds in focus. The other 2, the depth of field didn't allow for both the finch and chickadee to be in focus. It was taken on the 6DII and the 100-400LII, but I could have taken almost exactly the same shot nearly any decent DSLR decent lens that went to 200mm.

Title: "It's War!"

 

[Mikehit]

I don't buy handicapped products any more.

Yes you do. You have already admitted that the E-M1 does not give as high a quality image as a DSLR but you think the compromises are worth it for other functionalities.

If you don't buy handicapped products why don't you shoot medium format given that you don't do much action.

I suggest you stop being so smug and self-righteous.

 

[Loswr]

I don't buy handicapped products any more.

Yes you do. You have already admitted that the E-M1 does not give as high a quality image as a DSLR but you think the compromises are worth it for other functionalities.

If you don't buy handicapped products why don't you shoot medium format given that you don't do much action.

I suggest you stop being so smug and self-righteous.

+∞

 

[Orangutan]

I don't buy handicapped products any more.

Yes you do. You have already admitted that the E-M1 does not give as high a quality image as a DSLR but you think the compromises are worth it for other functionalities.

If you don't buy handicapped products why don't you shoot medium format given that you don't do much action.

I suggest you stop being so smug and self-righteous.

I'm generally not a fan of Aglet's not-quite-trollish posts, but I think this may be a misrepresentation of his views. I don't think Aglet (or others) have said there are never legitimate compromises; i.e., smaller sensor will affect IQ, and 60fps will affect AF. I believe what irks them are what they perceive as unnecessary compromises; the current poster-case for this is the sensor of the 6D2. It's known that there was better sensor tech available (5D4 and 80D), and could have been used. I believe the claim is that if Canon can put a feature in a particular body at reasonable cost, it should. Other examples would be pretty much every feature ML implements.

And this is the problem with Aglet's reasoning: he pretty much wants every feature that every other manufacturer implements, and to set the price of those cameras very close to lower-priced competitor. This cuts into profits, and limits the long-term health of the division of the company. I'd certainly love to have a loaded camera like that, but Canon's exec team would be upset with lost profits. I simply acknowledge this as reality.

If Aglet, and others, want Canon to add more features, they should rant at other manufacturers for not creating better competition by challenging Canon in the marketplace.

 

[Loswr]

I'm generally not a fan of Aglet's not-quite-trollish posts, but I think this may be a misrepresentation of his views.

Aglet's view is that any camera he doesn't personally like or doesn't meet his personal needs is handicapped. That term is more aptly applied to his mental inability to comprehend that his likes and needs are not representative of the majority of ILC system buyers.