No EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Replacements in 2017 [CR2]

[jolyonralph]

If you ever do see 120Mpx I think you'll only see that in a specialist non-DSLR body as they did with the ME20F-SH. Hardly any lenses will resolve anywhere near well enough to be of use.

Jumping to 60mpx with dpaf makes all the sense in the world though.

 

[RGF]

I don't see the point of using 120 Mp on a 35mm DSLR camera. The slight vibration from the mirror slap and shutter movement would blur the image at the pixel level. Having to use mirror lockup on every shot kind of negates the reason to have a DSLR. Maybe a mirrorless studio camera would have some utility in the commercial market. I could also see some uses in robotic imaging for some manufacturing processes. How many of you have a use for such a high res camera?

At some point diffraction destroys resolution. I don't know the math so I can not say i will be f5.6 or something l like that. But between diffraction, slight camera vibration, less than stellar optics, ... not sure that images from a 120 MP camera would be noticeably better than 50 MP camera in all but a few limited scenarios.

Like to see Canon work on (make work) a foveon type sensor or reinvent the sensor totally to get better IQ (or effective resolution).

Not sure that we can get much more effective resolution from existing 35mm sensor technology with a major breakthrough or reinvention.

 

[slclick]

I don't see the point of using 120 Mp on a 35mm DSLR camera. The slight vibration from the mirror slap and shutter movement would blur the image at the pixel level. Having to use mirror lockup on every shot kind of negates the reason to have a DSLR. Maybe a mirrorless studio camera would have some utility in the commercial market. I could also see some uses in robotic imaging for some manufacturing processes. How many of you have a use for such a high res camera?

At some point diffraction destroys resolution. I don't know the math so I can not say i will be f5.6 or something l like that. But between diffraction, slight camera vibration, less than stellar optics, ... not sure that images from a 120 MP camera would be noticeably better than 50 MP camera in all but a few limited scenarios.

Like to see Canon work on (make work) a foveon type sensor or reinvent the sensor totally to get better IQ (or effective resolution).

Not sure that we can get much more effective resolution from existing 35mm sensor technology with a major breakthrough or reinvention.

I'd love a Fovean style sensor in a Canon body but what are the issues behind the shutter speed dilemmas? Sigma bodies are infamous for not being able to shoot fast.

 

[douglaurent]

I've seen the 100+MP camera working at Photokina including realtime pics that were shot and did show lots of detail - half a year ago. I am sure Canon could have released such a camera tomorrow. As seen with the 4K video of the 1DC and its 4 years until it arrived in the 5D4, an endless delay created by marketing geniuses might occur. Probably they wait as long as the rest of the planet has bought medium format cameras and only half of the people are interested in it by then.

 

[ahsanford]

I've seen the 100+MP camera working at Photokina including realtime pics that were shot and did show lots of detail - half a year ago. I am sure Canon could have released such a camera tomorrow. As seen with the 4K video of the 1DC and its 4 years until it arrived in the 5D4, an endless delay created by marketing geniuses might occur. Probably they wait as long as the rest of the planet has bought medium format cameras and only half of the people are interested in it by then.

I'll drive past the bile for a moment and try to speak to a Canon 'stalling' to offer 100+ MP FF sensors to the market.

I contend the Venn diagram of:

• Those that absolutely need 100+ MP
• Those with large amounts of money to buy numerous newer / more modern lenses on day one
• Those willing to change their shooting method (MLU, shutter delay, diffraction considerations, etc.) to make the most of those 100 MP

...add up to a very small market for Canon to have to rebuild (guessing) more than half of its lens portfolio for. (It probably looks like a similar value proposition for a FF shooter to altogether move to Medium Format, now that I think about it.)

I'm not saying folks don't want 100+ MP -- I'm saying it will come at a staggering 'usage cost' and investment cost for users, and given how small that resulting market is, Canon won't be in a big hurry to fully support it with new lenses. Canon will offer 100+ MP someday, but they will slowly walk up to that level as their lenses continue to be refreshed, as DIGIC horsepower improves, etc.

- A

 

[brianftpc]

Canon will need to release new lenses before anyone thinks about buying the 5DsR mk2. If the current lineup can only offer 30ish mp of sharpness on 50mp then just then how much youll lose on 125mp. I hope sigma has plenty of art lenses in their inventory come 2018

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Regarding the next 5DS having 120 MP:

I would not hold your breath on that. Even if Canon holds off the 5DS / R follow up to 2019+ timeframe (as we'd expect from the 4-5 year cycles we've seen of late on FF SLRs), consider what a 120 MP rig would drive...

• When the 5DS / 5DS R came out, Canon only recommended certain lenses for it. They didn't purge large chunks of the EF portfolio from it, but the message was clear -- only certain lenses would let you make the most of the added resolving power of the sensor. Now imagine how short a lens list we'd see for a 120 MP canvas.
  
• 120 MP would have a ridiculously low frame rate -- say 2.1 fps on the current 5DS's data handling ability. Even projecting to 2019, two DIGIC chips might only get you 3 fps, which is (to some) below a floor of usability for many realms of photography. (Can Canon put 3 DIGIC chips in a body?)

I'm not saying a 120 will never happen -- I'm arguing 120 is not the logical next step for high resolution FF for Canon. I expect the 5DS2 to have far less than 120 MP.

- A

Maybe they will start counting each half of the dual pixel. So far, no one has stooped to that kind of trickery, but the Foveon sensor specs are misleading.

 

[unfocused]

Re: EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Replacements - 60 MP

... I think it more likely that the 5DS Mkii will have a scaled-up 80D sensor, i.e. 60MP...

I would agree. Although I would expect that by the time the 5Ds II comes out, sensor technology will have improved and it will be somewhat better than the 80D sensor. Assuming that most 5Ds owners are interested in maximum dynamic range coupled with high resolution, I expect that will be where the sensor improvements will be found.

Interestingly, that is also where the user base for the 5Ds and 7DII diverges. I expect that the 7DIII will concentrate on improved high ISO (to the extent that is possible) and give up a bit on dynamic range and possible resolution, so the 7DIII sensor could be something quite different from a scaled-down version of the 5Ds.

 

[FramerMCB]

I was thinking about your recent comment on the rumored 85mm IS...

If you know more about it, why wouldn't you tell us? Your business model revolves around leaks and hype, yet you seem to be sitting on accurate intel. Are you perhaps under some form of NDA?

An NDA for a rumors site owner sounds somewhat contradictional

Jokes aside - bad news, but nothing unexpected actually... the demoed 120 mpx sensor was aps-h, not ff, so maybe we will see something different, the 120mpx one would require a significant IS update. If they just make the v2 with the same s sensor but adc on chip, it would make me totally happy.

I'm not under NDA, but this is for fun, not to get people in trouble. An EF 85mm f/1.4L IS is coming this year, pricing hasn't been set and we don't have an exact announcement date. I'm not sure what other information people want beyond that.

We want to know EVERYTHING! Coma, aberrations handling, MTF, price, # of elements & groups, price, cost, but most importantly - will it make PHOTOGRAPHY GREAT AGAIN????

 

[scyrene]

There's no rush, as others have said. Dependent on the type of shot, sometimes even now I'm wowed by how much detail 50MP gives you (when you're zoom limited, for instance). However, just as 50MP would have seemed ludicrous a few years ago, so I think higher MP counts will come. As for technical limitations, I've seen all sorts of opinions.

 

[jeffa4444]

Dont know how many posting have the 5DS I do and here are my 19 months observations.

1. As long as shutter speed is higher than say on a Canon 6D for a given focal length then Ive not seen any worse camera shake / vibration issues
2.The pictures from a detail perspective even on lenses not listed as recommended usually appear more detailed / sharper than say again the 6D
3. The weakest atribute is dynamic range, its not a good low light camera
4. File sizes are way larger and you need to upgrade your PC or Mac
5. Lightroom and Photoshop even with newer PC / Mac is slower

a. Im not sure I would want a 120MP camera without some new compression algorithm the files sizes would be a killer
b. Dynamic range needs to be significantly better certainly at a minimum 14 stops
c. Nyquist would suggest at 120MP defraction would limit the benefits particularly for landscape shooters

 

[scyrene]

Dont know how many posting have the 5DS I do and here are my 19 months observations.

1. As long as shutter speed is higher than say on a Canon 6D for a given focal length then Ive not seen any worse camera shake / vibration issues
2.The pictures from a detail perspective even on lenses not listed as recommended usually appear more detailed / sharper than say again the 6D
3. The weakest atribute is dynamic range, its not a good low light camera
4. File sizes are way larger and you need to upgrade your PC or Mac
5. Lightroom and Photoshop even with newer PC / Mac is slower

a. Im not sure I would want a 120MP camera without some new compression algorithm the files sizes would be a killer
b. Dynamic range needs to be significantly better certainly at a minimum 14 stops
c. Nyquist would suggest at 120MP defraction would limit the benefits particularly for landscape shooters

I mostly agree with you. I think camera shake *is* more noticeable, but only viewed 100% of course, and it can be worked around (taking more shots in a burst and choosing the best, for instance). The low light performance is as good as the 5D3 when normalised (whole image/viewed at the same output size), with better sharpness, but the ISO 12800 upper limit can be tiresome, as is the lack of 1/3 stop increments above ISO 6400. File sizes are the biggest problem, especially if dealing with multiple images in focus stacks/panorama stitches. It's very computer-intensive.

 

[mclaren777]

I'm not under NDA, but this is for fun, not to get people in trouble. An EF 85mm f/1.4L IS is coming this year, pricing hasn't been set and we don't have an exact announcement date. I'm not sure what other information people want beyond that.

I primarily want to know if it will use Canon's new BR optics technology.

That would be an incredible game-changer IMHO.

 

[noms78]

Re: EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Replacements - 60 MP

I would also expect just a single model, with a cancellable AA filter. This tech is already being tested in the 5DMkiv, which has a user-selectable "Digital Lens Optimiser" which, among other things, cancels the effect of the AA filter.

At the moment this tech has a few bugs - using DSO in the 5DMkiv results in a 2-3 second buffer clearing time (with JPEG or RAW), rendering continuous drive useless when it is enabled. Hopefully this problem will be resolved soon with a firmware update.

Is it highly possible that DLO's "cancellable AA filter" is simply an "unsharp mask" filter with parameters decided by a software algorithm? - something you can already do in Lightroom/photoshop....

 

[ahsanford]

I'm only passingly well read on diffraction, but I had a question.

I'm just curious as sensor resolution climbs and the diffraction limited aperture more and more approaches a wide-open aperture, how would landscapes work? It would seem very difficult to obtain peak sharpness given the larger DOF needs of most landscape compositions.

This is true of landscape work in general -- even on my 5D3 my lens might be sharpest at f/5.6 but I don't hesitate to stop down to f/11 or f/14 as needed. But on a massive 100+ MP canvas, I imagine you'd be throwing out a lot more detail to make a similar decision to stop down. So what is one to do in that case? Are people going to need to focus-stack their landscapes like a product/macro photographer would?

Please educate me here, this is not my wheelhouse at all. Thx.

- A

 

[tr573]

I'm only passingly well read on diffraction, but I had a question.

I'm just curious as sensor resolution climbs and the diffraction limited aperture more and more approaches a wide-open aperture, how would landscapes work? It would seem very difficult to obtain peak sharpness given the larger DOF needs of most landscape compositions.

This is true of landscape work in general -- even on my 5D3 my lens might be sharpest at f/5.6 but I don't hesitate to stop down to f/11 or f/14 as needed. But on a massive 100+ MP canvas, I imagine you'd be throwing out a lot more detail to make a similar decision to stop down. So what is one to do in that case? Are people going to need to focus-stack their landscapes like a product/macro photographer would?

Please educate me here, this is not my wheelhouse at all. Thx.

- A

You wouldn't be throwing out more resolution than you're gaining by having a 100mp sensor. Just like how if your lens performs best at f/11 but your DLA is 5.6, you're still going to get more resolution at f/11 than at 5.6

Would you get even more if you focus stscked? Sure. But even a single frame is still going to give you more than a lower res camera

 

[tr573]

Re: EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Replacements - 60 MP

I would also expect just a single model, with a cancellable AA filter. This tech is already being tested in the 5DMkiv, which has a user-selectable "Digital Lens Optimiser" which, among other things, cancels the effect of the AA filter.

At the moment this tech has a few bugs - using DSO in the 5DMkiv results in a 2-3 second buffer clearing time (with JPEG or RAW), rendering continuous drive useless when it is enabled. Hopefully this problem will be resolved soon with a firmware update.

Is it highly possible that DLO's "cancellable AA filter" is simply an "unsharp mask" filter with parameters decided by a software algorithm? - something you can already do in Lightroom/photoshop....

It's a deconvolution function rather than unsharp mask. But not the same as a cancelled AA filter.

 

[Act444]

Dont know how many posting have the 5DS I do and here are my 19 months observations.

1. As long as shutter speed is higher than say on a Canon 6D for a given focal length then Ive not seen any worse camera shake / vibration issues
2.The pictures from a detail perspective even on lenses not listed as recommended usually appear more detailed / sharper than say again the 6D
3. The weakest atribute is dynamic range, its not a good low light camera
4. File sizes are way larger and you need to upgrade your PC or Mac
5. Lightroom and Photoshop even with newer PC / Mac is slower

I do too (the R version) and I agree with all except #4 - my 4 year old "run-of-the-mill" desktop seems to be able to handle the files just fine.

1) Yes but still need to be careful, especially indoors
2) Yes - noticed with the 50 1.2 that the 5DSR was able to squeeze a little more detail out of the lens, even at 1.2 where it's typically soft. Still, to REALLY get the most out of the camera, you really need one of the newer V. II prime lenses.
3) The DR hasn't been an issue for me but it definitely is not a low-light camera. That being said, with a quality lens I'm not afraid to push the ISO to its max of 6400 b/c even at that setting, the detail is still high enough that you can increase noise reduction and obtain an image that more closely matches the output of a 5D3 and it won't be mush!
5) RAW-JPG image conversion is noticeably slower with 5DSR files than with either 5D3 or 5D4 files, but honestly I don't notice a huge difference when actively working on them...

_____________

120MP would be pure overkill. 50MP is crazy enough, but I can't think of any lens that would resolve anywhere near 120MP or whether such a camera would be handholdable (using non-IS and older IS lenses), etc.

 

[ahsanford]

You wouldn't be throwing out more resolution than you're gaining by having a 100mp sensor. Just like how if your lens performs best at f/11 but your DLA is 5.6, you're still going to get more resolution at f/11 on a higher MP rig than at 5.6 on a lower MP rig

Would you get even more if you focus stscked? Sure. But even a single frame is still going to give you more than a lower res camera

Just clarifying your comment above (see in red) -- did I get that right?

- A

 

[Diko]

Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, "Tilting" touchscreen, Higher ISO and DR.

No need of DPAF on such a body.

Better to improve those wells on the pixels instead of increasing them. 60 MPs (at most) whereby no FF DSLR lense can't possibly cover them.

Have used one and wanted to cry when zooming and seeing the results :/

Glass has a long way to go. On the pther hand the noise and DR are the usual suspects. Let Canon concetrate on the wells's electrions gathering efficiency, better.