OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do you have to sell it?

[Loswr]

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.

Yes, that's what he said. But he's not biased. Not even a little bit. :

 

[msm]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

Like? This forum? :

I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.

I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.

 

[msm]

I think DPR has done an excellent job at their reviews. They cover all aspects of the shooting experience and demonstrates the cameras abilities nicely through videos and images.

Of course - when your biases coincide with those of a reviewer, it's obviously an excellent review.

That looks more like how you operate, not me. Their review nailed both the good and bad things about both cameras. Can you? Still haven't seen you say anything positive about Sony. So either everything is either bad with Sony or you are biased. Which one is it? :

No, wrong. They totally missed the AF evaluation. And since I've actually shot sports/action with all of the cameras above, I can make that claim. Have you? The 1Dx and 5Ds spank the living crap out of the A7R II tracking, especially in low light. But I guess since you haven't actually tested it yourself, you wouldn't know. So yes, neuro is right, you are totally biased and are just trying to get attention.

By tracking the subject we mean the ability of the camera to pick the AF point to follow a subject moving around in the frame. 1DX is clearly better at tracking distance using a fixed AF point over the subject exactly as DPReview points out but when it comes to selecting AF point by itself to track a subject it is far behind Nikon and Sony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAQI4CbS5s

Answer honestly: how often do you let the camera track the subject when shooting sports/action?

Ok, so you prefer the camera to choose where to focus. I prefer to be in charge of that. Having an optical viewfinder with no lag makes it easy to track a subject through the viewfinder. You should try it some time.

I prefer to have the ability to do both. Through a viewfinder with less lag than your brain.

 

[Larsskv]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

Like? This forum? :

I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.

I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.

I guess that owning that A7RII makes you bitter and defensive. You´re excused.

 

[msm]

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.

Nope. Never claimed that. Sony is far from perfect. Canon is far from perfect. Somehow some posters on this forum seems to be blind about the 2nd fact, I guess the need to justify expensive purchases is strong here.

 

[Loswr]

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.

Nope. Never claimed that. Sony is far from perfect. Canon is far from perfect. Somehow some posters on this forum seems to be blind about the 2nd fact, I guess the need to justify expensive purchases is strong here.

Apparently you have issues with metacognition.

 

[msm]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

Like? This forum? :

I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.

I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.

I guess that owning that A7RII makes you bitter and defensive. You´re excused.

Thank you but you are wrong, I have never been more happy with my gear. Just have to shake my head in disbelief when I read some of the bullshit written on this forum though, from people talking about stuff they have never tried.

 

[msm]

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.

Nope. Never claimed that. Sony is far from perfect. Canon is far from perfect. Somehow some posters on this forum seems to be blind about the 2nd fact, I guess the need to justify expensive purchases is strong here.

Apparently you have issues with metacognition.

Huh?

 

[Larsskv]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

Like? This forum? :

I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.

I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.

I guess that owning that A7RII makes you bitter and defensive. You´re excused.

Thank you but you are wrong, I have never been more happy with my gear. Just have to shake my head in disbelief when I read some of the bullS___ written on this forum though, from people talking about stuff they have never tried.

And that bulls**t is? The A7 cameras have long lasting batteries, no hang ups og bugs, direct AF-point controls?

I am glad that you enjoy your camera, but we are many here on this forum that disagree with the DPR ratings, and how they value different features, and that is what we are discussing. Of course the A7RII has a lot going for it, but Sony still has a way to go. I´ll admit though, that the Sony´s are advancing fast. One of my main problems with Sony, is that they are pushing unfinished products into the market, and that they are ignoring what they did in the past. Remember the a-mount? I do not have the confidence that Sony won´t change direction tomorrow, leaving investments in lenses etc in the dust.

 

[msm]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

Like? This forum? :

I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.

I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.

I guess that owning that A7RII makes you bitter and defensive. You´re excused.

Thank you but you are wrong, I have never been more happy with my gear. Just have to shake my head in disbelief when I read some of the bullS___ written on this forum though, from people talking about stuff they have never tried.

And that bulls**t is? The A7 cameras have long lasting batteries, no hang ups og bugs, direct AF-point controls?

I am glad that you enjoy your camera, but we are many here on this forum that disagree with the DPR ratings, and how they value different features, and that is what we are discussing. Of course the A7RII has a lot going for it, but Sony still has a way to go. I´ll admit though, that the Sony´s are advancing fast. One of my main problems with Sony, is that they are pushing unfinished products into the market, and that they are ignoring what they did in the past. Remember the a-mount? I do not have the confidence that Sony won´t change direction tomorrow, leaving investments in lenses etc in the dust.

For instance like you questioning a score in a review which by your own admission you haven't even read, making claims like the A7R II is unstable and has half implemented features without ever having used it or having some data to back that up or pointing out what features are "half implemented".

 

[K-amps]

Yet another thread succumbs to intolerance of other people's opinions... Ad Homeinum Ad nauseum...

Yes we know Canon is dragging its heels on keeping its old sensor fab intact, we were disappointed in 2012, when the 5d3 came out and almost 4 years later we are disappointed in the 5dsr... Guess what there is no perfect Camera out there...

Last week I tried out (comparing my 5d3) a A7r2 and a A810. First impressions... The D810 was horrible to hold and grip, I had no idea holding a body could stimulate such negative emotions in me... It was even worse than the A7r2, which at least was lighter.

I am primarily a cityscape/ Landscape/ macro sort of shooter, so AF is not a big deal for me, but I can understand it is for the majority. I love Canon lenses... Anyone try the new Nikkor 24-70 f2.8? Ask a Nikon shooter how disappointing that lens is... on the other hand, the files out of the D810 are such a joy to work with, the workflow is painless. It takes a lot of work and processing to get the 5d3 file (harsh city lights etc.) look right, it breaks apart when you start stretching color and hues, the 810 file stays intact longer, I don't know why.

The A7r2 files were middle of the two, cleaner than the 5d3 at base iso but not as clean as the older D810. (attached is 100% crops comparing the 3.... you guys guess which one is which. These are unprocessed RAW's converted at the ACR base values)

The second shot is the full version to show you total exposure. (from the 5d3 RAW)

I have been thinking about upgrading to either the 5dsr, A7r2 or D810 for a few months, I am glad I actually tried out the D810, which made me take a step back and tell myself, wait for 6 months.... maybe next year Canon can compete on cleaner files... only you can decide what's good for you...

I really hope Canon knocks it out of the Park next year.

 

[kaihp]

The difference in ISO is pretty minimal in my eyes. The big difference that eh 5DSR and 5DS have is lack of colour noise the 5DMKIII is infuriating.

I'm a little confused - are you saying that you're unhappy with the colour noise of the 5D3? ???

I ask because I'm extremely happy with the lack of colour noise in my 5D3 - but then again my reference is my old 50D which I hate the guts out of due to soft pics and colour noise

 

[candc]

[/quote]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.
[/quote]

"no direct af point control" means there is no touchscreen. you press one of the top buttons and then you move the af point around with the wheels or the jog dial. pretty much the same as most dslr's. i think the menus are okay. they are organized in tabs and logical to find through.

the buttons are mushy though, same as on the rx100iii.

 

[sdsr]

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

They're not worth much to me either since, being rather odd, I much prefer MF to AF and have zero interest in much of what interests reviewers (much of the time when reading this or other reviews I find myself asking "who cares?" - especially re the ludicrous examples they provided for their DR complaints). But if you prefer MF to AF and want FF, the Sony a7 line beats any FF dslr and the lens shortage becomes a glut. Leaving all that aside, some of these complaints are merely subjective. How many AF cameras give you direct AF point control? The only ones I've used that do that are m43 Olympus; all the rest require you to push some button first before you can move it. Small, mushy buttons? They don't seem that way to me, but as long as they work I don't care; maybe my fingertips are small enough. Sluggish buffer? I guess so, esp. given the large raw files, but I only ever use single shot so again, I don't care. Limited batter life? Yes, like all mirrorless cameras with EVFs, but given the appeal to me of mirrorless and EVFs and the fact that it's easy to carry spares, I don't care. Bad menus? Compared to Canon, sure, but try Olympus some time.... Anyway, given the extent to which the cameras let me configure external buttons (including features you won't find on any Canon or Nikon dslr, such as setting the focal length of third party lenses for IBIS purposes), I only use the menu for three things, only one of which I use regularly, so that doesn't matter either.

But that's me. If all those things matter to you, that's fine, of course.

 

[sanj]

I think DPR has done an excellent job at their reviews. They cover all aspects of the shooting experience and demonstrates the cameras abilities nicely through videos and images.

Of course - when your biases coincide with those of a reviewer, it's obviously an excellent review.

That looks more like how you operate, not me. Their review nailed both the good and bad things about both cameras. Can you? Still haven't seen you say anything positive about Sony. So either everything is either bad with Sony or you are biased. Which one is it? :

So when your biases don't coincide with those of a reviewer, its a bad review?

 

[sanj]

What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.

Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D

Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.

Surely

 

[jd7]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.

"no direct af point control" means there is no touchscreen. you press one of the top buttons and then you move the af point around with the wheels or the jog dial. pretty much the same as most dslr's. i think the menus are okay. they are organized in tabs and logical to find through.

the buttons are mushy though, same as on the rx100iii.

At least with the XXD, 7D, 6D and 5D series cameras (no doubt also with 1D although I've not tried them) there is an option so you can control af point without having to press a button on top the camera. You just press the joystick or wheel and it immediately moves the af point. I assume that is what is meant by direct af point control.

 

[AlanF]

After all the discussion about the A7R II, I decided to try it for myself with the Metabones. I returned it after less than a day, not because it was a bad camera but it wasn't for me and my own purposes. It was small and light - it looked and felt to handle exactly like my 3G X, both having a suspiciously similar ev adjustment dial, a feature I like. The 3G does have the advantage of a touch screen and a built in lens! Big pluses of the Sony are that the IQ is very good indeed and you don't have to AFMA lenses. The camera worked well with my old 24-105mm for general photography and landscapes. There were several downsides. The first was the menu - it is as clumsy and ant-intuitive as rumoured, and I first had to trawl the internet to find out to format the SD card, as it wasn't in the guide and was eventually located in a sub-menu. The battery life was appalling, and it was quickly drained by the 100-400mm II.

The killer for me is that it is not suitable for my type of nature photography. The problem is that I need centre spot focus for bird photography with precision for picking out small birds between branches. So, in this mode the Sony does not use all the focal points in the sensor, which slows down focussing, and I didn't learn how to use just a tight spot focus, if one exists (it's like using the 70D rather than a 7DII). The focussing would be fine for a bird in flight or one without an obscuring background. The IS on the 100-400mm II worked fine when it was turned on. Unfortunately, turning it off didn't seem to activate the internal iS of the Sony, or if it did it was lousy for a telephoto. Perhaps I have missed something.

The other important factor is that as now is becoming common, I use the telephoto lens and camera as a hand held spotting scope (with excellent IS). The optical finder of the 7DII and its x1 magnification is better.

The Sony is clearly excellent in many ways, but it's not for everyone.

 

[sanj]

After all the discussion about the A7R II, I decided to try it for myself with the Metabones. I returned it after less than a day, not because it was a bad camera but it wasn't for me and my own purposes. It was small and light - it looked and felt to handle exactly like my 3G X, both having a suspiciously similar ev adjustment dial, a feature I like. The 3G does have the advantage of a touch screen and a built in lens! Big pluses of the Sony are that the IQ is very good indeed and you don't have to AFMA lenses. The camera worked well with my old 24-105mm for general photography and landscapes. There were several downsides. The first was the menu - it is as clumsy and ant-intuitive as rumoured, and I first had to trawl the internet to find out to format the SD card, as it wasn't in the guide and was eventually located in a sub-menu. The battery life was appalling, and it was quickly drained by the 100-400mm II.

The killer for me is that it is not suitable for my type of nature photography. The problem is that I need centre spot focus for bird photography with precision for picking out small birds between branches. So, in this mode the Sony does not use all the focal points in the sensor, which slows down focussing, and I didn't learn how to use just a tight spot focus, if one exists (it's like using the 70D rather than a 7DII). The focussing would be fine for a bird in flight or one without an obscuring background. The IS on the 100-400mm II worked fine when it was turned on. Unfortunately, turning it off didn't seem to activate the internal iS of the Sony, or if it did it was lousy for a telephoto. Perhaps I have missed something.

The other important factor is that as now is becoming common, I use the telephoto lens and camera as a hand held spotting scope (with excellent IS). The optical finder of the 7DII and its x1 magnification is better.

The Sony is clearly excellent in many ways, but it's not for everyone.

Alan it seems like you used A7R for wrong kind of photography. 5d3, 1dx would suit your need better.
Regards menus, it is really about learning and getting used to. Like phones, cars etc.

 

[AlanF]

I do have a 5D3 (and a 7DII). The menus on Sonys are frequently complained about. This is what dpreviews say about Sony:

"Sony's full menu system, accessed by pressing the 'Menu' button on the back of the camera, is frankly a disorganized mess. For example, 22 AF options are split across 11 different submenu pages under 2 different main menu headers. The lack of organization is inexplicable, but what makes it even worse is the lack of a customizable 'My Menu', which would at least have allowed user to collate all frequently used menu options under customizable tabs. It's silly that I have to go to the second line of the fifth page of the sixth tab simply to format my memory card, something you might (and should) often do."

I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive