Patent: New Canon Mount Coming?

[Canon Rumors Guy]

A patent for serial communication for an ILC mount that is neither EF or EF-M.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-the-first-sniff-of-a-new-mount-for-canon">Canon News</a> tried their best to translate a rather awkward patent.</p>
<blockquote><p>…… is seemingly suggesting that this mount could handle multiple lenses of both a new mount and old mount format.  Conjecturing by looking at the mount, looking at the size of the sensor against the mount itself, it’s appearing as if canon is looking at mounting EF-M and EF Full frame mirrorless using possibly a hybrid mount?</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>From Japan Patent Application 2018-084713:</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>Conventionally, the serial communication (synchronous serial communication) of a clock synchronization system has been adopted as a communication method of a camera and an interchangeable lens. The following technical contents are disclosed in the Patent document 1. First, synchronous serial communication is performed with the first communication speed with which an interchangeable lens old type can also communicate. When the interchangeable lens with which it is equipped is distinguished from a new lens by the communication content, it changes to the synchronous serial communication in a more nearly high-speed second communication speed.</p></blockquote>
<p>We’ve been told that the mount solution for a full frame mirrorless camera would be interesting, but this is the first time we can confirm that Canon is working on a new mount. Though there’s no way of knowing if this is indeed for the upcoming full frame mirrorless camera body.</p>
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[Talys]

A camera body that could accept efm recessed and ef protruded would be pretty amazing

 

[Don Haines]

Actually.......

The patent is about communication protocols between the lens and the body..... I did this around 1990 with high speed modems.....

The current lenses communicate to the lenses in an asynchronous protocol.... there are stop bits, start bits, parity bits, and as a result, asynchronous communications are fairly slow and add latency to the communications pipeline.... as a result, there is delay between when the camera issues a command and the lens receives it.

What this does is to establish initial communications with all lenses in async mode, queries the lens as to what speeds and protocols it supports, and then goes to the highest supported speed/ protocol. If it is an old lens, the camera gets an error or an “unrecognized command” response from the lens and stays at the old speed that all the current lenses are using. If it is a new lens that supports this command, communications change to sync mode and a higher bit rate. Now commands are transmitted faster and there is less delay.... allowing faster focus speeds and better IS performance.

All your legacy lenses still work, and the new ones are even better! Who knows, the two 70-200 lenses about to be released could be the first to hit the shelves.....

 

[Richard CR]

Actually.......

The patent is about communication protocols between the lens and the body..... I did this around 1990 with high speed modems..

Yes. We mentioned that, however that's not the interesting part we were surprised about. The mount shown is neither the EF nor the EF-M mount, but another derivative. the sensor portion looks larger than what it would be for an EF mount, and closer to a full frame sensor in an EF-M mount.

So it would be high speed Async EF or EF-M sized mount that could handle legacy lenses. The idea place to split this is with mirrorless system that probably requires faster and more immediate adjustments than the DSLR EF mount.

 

[HarryFilm]

I'm almost, but not, maybe YES...going to say...I TOLD YOU SO !!!

Based upon some lava-hot rumors not only are we seeing new mounts but the cameras that will GO WITH THOSE MOUNT!

My current Euro-engineering sources have been saying for a Looooooong time that a Canon Medium Format with a much-larger-than-EF-mount is being tested, and large smartphone(s) with 2/3rds inch and/or APS-C sensors are on the way, and a medium-duty global shutter mirrorless combo cinema/stills camera is on the way (XC-15 style). If this mount is Full Frame then it would LIKELY be put on an M5-style body for the Sony A7sII-like small form factor video-centric crowd!

 

[Orangutan]

I'm almost, but not

NOT until the product is actually released.

 

[-1]

The patent is about communication protocols between the lens and the body..... I did this around 1990 with high speed modems.....
[---]
All your legacy lenses still work, and the new ones are even better! Who knows, the two 70-200 lenses about to be released could be the first to hit the shelves.....

So it's physically a dummy. That would be a good explanation to why it looks like EF-M mount twisted a few degrees anticlockwise. That that's seem to be expected then is a EF-M mount with a new protocol and that an adapter is to be used for EF lenses... Could be one like these with a Pelix mirror to assist a phase AF system:

 

[OlAf]

It would be nice to do without adapters-crutches.

 

[fullstop]

patent is only about communications.

mount-parameters are just dummy specs. purported ability to mount EF-M lenses (crop image circle) on upcoming FF- sensored mirrorless cameras makes no sense! and if canon were to use EF-M mount for FF mirrorless, then the simple extension-tube with wiring-thru EF/EF-M adapter is already available.

i agree with user -1 that it MIGHT hint towards a "Sony LA-EA4 type" of adapter (possibly with pellicle mirror) to retain legacy EF lenses phase-AF properties on FF mirrorless system.

 

[Kit.]

Yes. We mentioned that, however that's not the interesting part we were surprised about. The mount shown is neither the EF nor the EF-M mount, but another derivative. the sensor portion looks larger than what it would be for an EF mount, and closer to a full frame sensor in an EF-M mount.

So it would be high speed Async EF or EF-M sized mount that could handle legacy lenses.

Or it could be just some abstract drawing as the patent is applicable to both EF and EF-M.

Or are there any specific patent claims related to mount details (other than the presence of serial interface contacts)?

 

[jolyonralph]

I have to agree, this patent is just about communication protocols and has nothing to do with hardware changes at all.

The serial protocol used by lenses to communicate with the body dates back to 1986. Every EF lens made today still uses the same protocols so that they will work on a 1986 EOS 650 camera body.

Obviously modern technology allows MUCH faster communication (back in 1986 1200baud (bits per second) communication was the norm over a serial link, with some faster peripherals handling 9600bps. Now, with USB 3 serial we have 480 megabits per second - a 50,000 times increase in speed.)

So, the patent allows for a lens to communicate in such a way that a new lens and a new body can identify that they are both capable of high speed communication and then chatter away at a much faster rate (bringing down latency and therefore increasing focus speed and accuracy) - but in a way that allows both the lens and the body to fall back to the older protocols if a newer lens is attached to an older body, or vice versa.

You need pictures on a patent otherwise they get a bit boring, but don't read too much into it.

 

[keithcooper]

Whilst I'd like to see more mount detail, I suspect any new features that are different here are to make the the info applicable to any Canon mount, not a specific new one

Looking at the patent, I'm minded to agree that it's primarily about lens communication and perhaps should be seen in conjunction with this US application for a bit of (slightly) more readable exposition

http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180115697

This one looks at changing the number of data words communicated in messages. This matters because in rapid shooting and live-view, the existing data exchange protocols take too long. It also lets a lens communicate a large amount of data to a body quickly when first attached. An example of this would be custom lens aberration and calibration data, related to the actual lens you are using.

In terms of mount adapter, there was this one last month
http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180107098

 

[mb66energy]

While the main content of the patent is about communication protocols the most interesting detail for me is
the ASPECT RATIO shown for the (possible) sensor (area). Maybe some preparation for larger than 36x24 mm sized sensors for future medium format sensors or multi-format large area to exploit the 43mm image circle of FF lenses in e.g. square format (31x31mm, very hypothetical I think).

 

[eosuser1234]

What if the ef adapter rotates out with the press of a lever. When an EF-M lens is used, it sits flush with the camera body, and blends in nicely. Will be intersting to see what size of image circle the new ef-m 32mm makes

 

[fullstop]

Will be interesting to see what size of image circle the new ef-m 32mm makes

just enough to cover Canon APS-C image circle - a bit more than r = 13.4 mm

And again, I don't believe Canon will use EF-M mount for FF mirrorless. So no need to make a complicated EF-M adapter, since EF-M lenses and EF-M mount are *crop*. (no pun intended)

 

[CafferyPhoto]

this patent is just about communication protocols

What protocols do the other companies (Sony, Nikon) use?

 

[Richard CR]

patent is only about communications.

mount-parameters are just dummy specs. purported ability to mount EF-M lenses (crop image circle) on upcoming FF- sensored mirrorless cameras makes no sense! and if canon were to use EF-M mount for FF mirrorless, then the simple extension-tube with wiring-thru EF/EF-M adapter is already available.

If it was just "dummy specs" then why not use existing diagrams that I'm sure Canon has in spades for the mechanical EF or EF-M mount, and why go through the additional time and effort to draft up a mount, and also the corresponding lens side of the mount. For no particular reason whatsoever. Why should a mount around the same diameter of an EF-M mount that clearly isn't an EF-M mount? Why show a lens with the same mount? It could very well be EF version 2.0 that is it portraying - one based upon asynchronous, faster communication between lens and mount, with different pin outs. Or it could be another all together.

while it's a patent dealing with the handshaking of an lens attached to a mount, it specifically mentions two different types of lenses being used on one mount.

secondly, every full frame camera manufacturer besides canon allows for crop lenses to attach and "auto crop" down to 1.5 or 1.6x in the case of Canon. Why would canon not offer the same functionality - how does that "not make sense". being able to use Canon's excellent 11-22mm in auto 1.6 crop sounds like a PERFECT great valid reason for me, or the 22/2 in auto crop as well.

and while a straight forward EF adapter already exists, it may not be as fast as Canon wants. they are obviously looking at faster lens communication for a reason.

 

[ahsanford]

Again, it's just IP. Canon could have many R&D investments on the board that got to this stage (i.e. novel and non-obvious enough to be patented) that will never make it into a final product.

And, just for me, though it might be possible to have EF-X (new mount) or EF-M/EF-S tuck further into the mount than EF, has anyone actually superimposed the actual back of lenses for EF / EF-S / EF-M / this patent to see if that still physically might not be possible? In other words, have decisions already been made with the rear lens bayonet/locking features of EF that would (diametrically) block mirrorless rear elements from recessing inside of that EF mount?

- A

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

As I read the patent, its a protocol for greatly speeding up communication between camera and lens. It can potentially allow for a new lens design with higher speed communication, which has become a limiting factor for autofocus speed. It can be mounted to any camera because it is backwards compatible. New cameras will have a switch to detect the high speed lenses being mounted and increase voltage to the lens which switches on the high speed protocol.

"The object of this invention is providing the camera and interchangeable lens which enable improvement in the further performance of operation, corresponding also to the interchangeable lens old type which used the conventional communication method."

It can use the same number of contacts, so its Potentially interchangeable. As stated in this paragraph, when a lens with the high speed communication is mounted to a camera which does not support high speed, it defaults to the low speed.


"Although the conventional camera body can be equipped with the interchangeable lens 201 of this example, with the conventional camera body, the judgment according to lens type cannot be performed, but since it is corresponding only to the conventional system, the communication method as well as the conventional lens 301 operates, when the camera body side communicates a conventional system"
"For this reason, it becomes possible to provide the camera and interchangeable lens which enable improvement in the further performance of operation, corresponding also to the interchangeable lens old type using the conventional communication method."
"Since communication by suitable communicate mode can be started from immediately after wearing by judging promptly the kind of lens with which the camera was equipped, without increasing the number of electrodes of a lens mount part according to the present invention, It becomes possible to provide the camera and interchangeable lens which enable improvement in the further performance of operation, corresponding also to the interchangeable lens old type using the conventional communication method."


While it certainly could be used in a mirrorless lens for a mirrorless camera, they do not have a MIRROR Box.


"The mount lock pin 2 of Fig.1 is energized so that it may project from the attachment surface 1A of the camera body side mount 1 with a spring not shown, and it engages with the mount lock groove 6 of the lens side mount 5 of Fig.2 where it corresponds in a mount wearing completion state. The rectangular mirror box 4 is provided inside the camera body side mount 1, and the quick return mirror not shown, the shutter unit, the image sensor, etc. are arranged in the mirror box 4."

There will be a switch added to the camera to be able to detect a lens with high speed protocol

"If a camera body and a lens will be in a mount wearing completion state, in order to depress the section of the judgment switch 105 classified by lens type on the camera body side in addition to each electric contact being connected, The judgment switch 105 classified by lens type closes, and let the decision signal NEWLENS according to lens type by which pull-up is carried out to the power supply VDD for control be a "Lo" level. "

 

[fullstop]

"auto crop" was introduced as a "stop gap fix" by Nikon when after years of preaching "DX is more than enough" they changed course in mid-stream and introduced FX bodies. So they a lot of customers sitting on DX lenses and wanted to tell them they can continue to use them on new FX cameras as well. Yes, technically they can. But no, in my opinion it still does not make sense in real life. It is a waste of precious sensor real estate and basically a "marketing trick".

I never have and never will use lenses with too small an image circle for the sensor/imaging surface. If I dont have a proper lens and dont want to buy one outright, then I will RENT one. But "auto-crop"? Give me a break.

YMMV