POLL: Are Zeiss lens users more likely to get a 5dS/R?

[Zeidora]

There is a bit of a discussion of whether Canon completely misses its audience with the 5dS/R. I wonder whether there is a correlation between what optics you use, and how likely you are of getting a 5dS or 5dSR.

From my personal perspective, I use Zeiss MF lenses, am a slower shooter, almost always use a tripod, am heavily influenced by 4x5" LF shooting style. Image quality is a huge factor. I set ISO to 160 native sensor, and never went above 800. Movies? I could not care less. But I am concerned about image quality in folio size book spreads. So I will get a 5dSR, replacing the 5dmkII.

My expectation is that the of the poll is that 1>2 and 3<4, and 1+2<<3+4. The 5dS is not for everybody, but a welcome addition for some.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

It will be interesting to hear from users as to how good of a manual focus they can achieve thru the viewfinder. I'd suspect that getting better manual focus to match the resolution of the sensor is going to take some pretty careful work. Just the vibration from having your hand on the focus ring might make it difficult to get the very finest focus.

I used 5 different Zeiss / Hasselblad lenses adapted to my 5D MK II, and got a low percentage of sharply focused images using a sturdy tripod and live view. I struggle with my vision, so I am probably a poor example.

When I mounted the combination to a strong tripod head that was literally bolted to a heavy and sturdy light table, and viewed the image at 5X tethered to my 24 inch monitor, I could manually focus to near perfection. I loved the smooth long throw focus, and wished I could do better. I even bought a split prism focus screen for my 1D MK III, and tried that, but it was not accurate enough to get the sharpest focus.

Most Zeiss users already know this, so they certainly will not get results that are poorer than what they get now, and will almost certainly notice the improvement, its just a question of how close they can get to perfect focus on a regular basis.

 

[Eldar]

I did not vote yet. There are too many things I do not know about the 5Ds yet. We have the usual DR/noise issues, which are being debated to death on other threads, but there are couple of others I need to know the answer to before I make my decision.

We know that the focusing screen is fixed, which was a significant turn-off. But if it is mounted the same way as the 5DIII and its size equals that of the 5DIII, I´ll use the custom built S-screen I have from Focusing Screens. Not ideal, but at least a lot better than a standard screen. One could hope for an improved standard screen, but I think it´s more likely that I´ll meet Nelson Mandela on a street corner in Oslo, than for that to happen.

The images we have seen so far is clearly not enough to pass judgement on what this camera can do or not. But, to get back to your question, I was really waiting for this camera and looking forward to matching it with my Zeiss primes. But if all I get is a FF 7DII with 50MP, than I´ll pass.

Jury still out ...

 

[Zeidora]

I inquired with Canon via e-mail on the focusing screen issue, and they could not tell either way. The 5dmkIII focussing screen is also indicated as "fixed", but can be changed by removing a couple of screws, so I suspect it will be the same for the 5dS. Re getting focus right, I don't think I have a lot of problems with that. Between focus confirm with specific AF point highlighting, and live view with magnifier function, I'm pretty happy. I currently have a Haoda screen in my 5dmkii, but may go for the Ee-S to avoid metering problems. I guess you are aware of the 0.15 mm difference in thickness of the focusing screens for the 5d and the 1d. On my microscopes I also use over-under-middle focus, and that works very well. Same on LF with loupe on ground glass. Focus creep with stopped down lens should be minimal.

Re vibrations, except for macro work >1:1, I see no problems. The vibrations themselves do not change the focus, and long lenses are collar mounted. Vibration during exposure is critical re sharpness, of course. I usually use live view and remote shutter release. In the field my backpack hangs from the platform and is resting on the ground.

I guess someone has to be the guinea pig, and I'll gladly be it. I also preordered the Otus 55 back then in anticipation of the 5dS, and many were skeptical. I haven't heard too many complaints since (except for price).

 

[Eldar]

I inquired with Canon via e-mail on the focusing screen issue, and they could not tell either way. The 5dmkIII focussing screen is also indicated as "fixed", but can be changed by removing a couple of screws, so I suspect it will be the same for the 5dS. Re getting focus right, I don't think I have a lot of problems with that. Between focus confirm with specific AF point highlighting, and live view with magnifier function, I'm pretty happy. I currently have a Haoda screen in my 5dmkii, but may go for the Ee-S to avoid metering problems. I guess you are aware of the 0.15 mm difference in thickness of the focusing screens for the 5d and the 1d. On my microscopes I also use over-under-middle focus, and that works very well. Same on LF with loupe on ground glass. Focus creep with stopped down lens should be minimal.

Re vibrations, except for macro work >1:1, I see no problems. The vibrations themselves do not change the focus, and long lenses are collar mounted. Vibration during exposure is critical re sharpness, of course. I usually use live view and remote shutter release. In the field my backpack hangs from the platform and is resting on the ground.

I guess someone has to be the guinea pig, and I'll gladly be it. I also preordered the Otus 55 back then in anticipation of the 5dS, and many were skeptical. I haven't heard too many complaints since (except for price).

Yes, changing the focusing screen on the 5DIII is less difficult than most people think. But you can´t do it in the field and you have some hassle with the EC. But, since I also use f4 lenses, I want to be able to swap screens in the field, because the S-screen is too dark.

I have tried the Ec-S screen in the 5DIII and that does not work well. It does not fit mechanically and I got some strange optical phenomena, which made it totally useless. The Focusing Screen version works OK though.

 

[Zeidora]

Yes, changing the focusing screen on the 5DIII is less difficult than most people think. But you can´t do it in the field and you have some hassle with the EC. But, since I also use f4 lenses, I want to be able to swap screens in the field, because the S-screen is too dark.

I have tried the Ec-S screen in the 5DIII and that does not work well. It does not fit mechanically and I got some strange optical phenomena, which made it totally useless. The Focusing Screen version works OK though.

Field changing is not a huge issue for me. I had a whole arsenal of focusing screens back in OM times and for the Contax RTSIII, but very rarely changed them at all, and don't recall ever changing one in the field. Occasionally, I used a clear screen for extreme macro (21 mm reversed on bellows), but these days I rather z-stack on a dedicated stereomicroscope. Focussing screens are cheap. I may get a few and just try them out. I am aware of Focussing Screens, which seems to be the only option these days. Katzeneye, Beatie, Inten, Brightscreen, Haoda (= Focussing Screens?) are all gone or don't offer anything for the 5d series.

RE f/4 lenses, I don't have anything slower than f/2.8. The only one where it becomes relevant is the MPE 65/2.8, which at 1:1 has effective f-stop of 2.8 x 2 = 5.6, at 5:1, effective f-stop is 2.8 x 6 = 16.8. For those shots I usually go with live view anyway. NB: the MPE 65 becomes diffraction limiting at >3:1 on a 5dS, even used fully open. That makes sense, as resolution with light is theoretically limited at half wavelength ~ 250 nm, practically usually at twice that even with best lenses (400–700 nm = 0.4–0.7 µm). At 3:1, a pixel of 4 µm represents an object dimension of 1.3 µm, at 5:1 it will be 0.8 µm. Factoring effective f-stop diffraction in, that all seems to add up.

Removing the screws and swapping the focussing screen can be done in the field. I re-assemble Lee filter holders in the field, no sweat. If dust/rain/etc is a concern, you would not swap a screen under those conditions on a 5dmkii either. It will take longer. I guess on a 5dmkii it takes maybe 30 seconds, while on the mkiii it will take about 3 minutes. It is irritating that Canon took a step backwards after the mkii. Sadly, Canon does not seem to see the need to step in, making 5d versions of the 1d screen selection. Very strange marketing. We'll have to learn to live with that.

 

[Lawliet]

But, to get back to your question, I was really waiting for this camera and looking forward to matching it with my Zeiss primes. But if all I get is a FF 7DII with 50MP, than I´ll pass.

How the 5Ds will perform is one part of the equation, the other involves the competention. Sure, changing mounts is just an evening of work, esp if you already know which shims to use, but I still want to get an actual benefit.

 

[NWPhil]

It will be interesting to hear from users as to how good of a manual focus they can achieve thru the viewfinder. I'd suspect that getting better manual focus to match the resolution of the sensor is going to take some pretty careful work. Just the vibration from having your hand on the focus ring might make it difficult to get the very finest focus.

I used 5 different Zeiss / Hasselblad lenses adapted to my 5D MK II, and got a low percentage of sharply focused images using a sturdy tripod and live view. I struggle with my vision, so I am probably a poor example.

When I mounted the combination to a strong tripod head that was literally bolted to a heavy and sturdy light table, and viewed the image at 5X tethered to my 24 inch monitor, I could manually focus to near perfection. I loved the smooth long throw focus, and wished I could do better. I even bought a split prism focus screen for my 1D MK III, and tried that, but it was not accurate enough to get the sharpest focus.

Most Zeiss users already know this, so they certainly will not get results that are poorer than what they get now, and will almost certainly notice the improvement, its just a question of how close they can get to perfect focus on a regular basis.

not an expert of any kind, but for me the foucsing problem arises only if shooting wide open, as I might be in a very shallow DOF situation, and if not using a tripod, just breathing is enough to position the target off focus ( that or too much cooffe)
My 1Dsmk3 has the canon Ec-L screen mounted now (http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_FocusingScreens_QuickGuide.pdf)
When using a lens slower than 2.8, it's a bit darker, but still not a huge issue
If shooting at longer distances, then it's the AF confirm box who is unreliable, because sometimes encloses more than one focusing edge inside

ps: so far I am the only vote on option #2
ps2: yeah, not convinced with either new canon dslr releases - looking forward to see Sony A9 or A7Rmk2 released

 

[mackguyver]

I voted #3, but I'm not 100% sold on my need for it. I'm very satisfied with 5DIII and 1D X combination. I use the 5DIII almost exclusively for landscape and other slow, careful work. I would like more DR, etc., but I don't feel like the 5DIII is the limiting factor in my work.

In the past, I have needed more pixels at times, and if the 5Ds is no worse than the 5DIII, it might be worthwhile because there's nothing worse than a client who asked for 8.5x11" brochure photos who now wants 40x60" prints (with a 2-3 foot viewing distance) and a billboard. True story. Perfect Resize works pretty well at 2x and moderately well for 3x enlargements, but it's not ideal, especially if you delivered cropped photos in the first place! Knowing that my work would be 50MP would certainly give me more confidence. It also brings up a lot of new possibilities for cropped work with the 11-24 and single shot (cropped vs. stitched) panoramas. Okay I think I am sold on one after typing this up

 

[Eldar]

It will be interesting to hear from users as to how good of a manual focus they can achieve thru the viewfinder. I'd suspect that getting better manual focus to match the resolution of the sensor is going to take some pretty careful work. Just the vibration from having your hand on the focus ring might make it difficult to get the very finest focus.

I used 5 different Zeiss / Hasselblad lenses adapted to my 5D MK II, and got a low percentage of sharply focused images using a sturdy tripod and live view. I struggle with my vision, so I am probably a poor example.

When I mounted the combination to a strong tripod head that was literally bolted to a heavy and sturdy light table, and viewed the image at 5X tethered to my 24 inch monitor, I could manually focus to near perfection. I loved the smooth long throw focus, and wished I could do better. I even bought a split prism focus screen for my 1D MK III, and tried that, but it was not accurate enough to get the sharpest focus.

Most Zeiss users already know this, so they certainly will not get results that are poorer than what they get now, and will almost certainly notice the improvement, its just a question of how close they can get to perfect focus on a regular basis.

I use my Zeiss lenses a lot and both the Otus lenses (55/1.4 and 85/1.4) and the 135/2.0 are very often (most of the time) used wide open. I only focus through the viewfinder, with an Ec-S screen in the 1DX and a custom made S-screen in the 5DIII. It takes a bit of practice, but I have very high keeper rates (well, at least from a focusing perspective), even in rather poor light. I´m not sure how much worse it would be to shoot with a 50MP camera, but I suppose we will find out in due time. For the moment I am still on the fence regarding the 5Ds/5DsR.

This is shot handheld, focused through the viewfinder at f1.4. I used 2 soft boxes, so the light I had to focus in was fairly dim. But with the S screens (this is with the custom made screen from Focusing Screens for the 5DIII) it is pretty easy to see when the eye is in focus or not.

 

[NancyP]

Undecided. Right now I have one Zeiss lens, not an Otus, and one supersharp Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art lens, used on a 6D. I need to expand my technique and vision more than I need another camera body. Plus, I want to upgrade my computer first.