Question about handheld shooting with 5Ds R

[Omni Images]

I shoot landscape and keen to get for that, but I do have an old Phase One and P45+ back, and still use it for landscape along with my Linhof 617s ... what I am keen on using it for is water/surf shots in a housing and wildlife with my 100-400II ... so yeah hand holding for sure ... I don't think it'll be an issue really.
I think people are making too much of it .. bit like when the horseless carriage came out and people said you wouldn't be able to breath going faster than like 45.
Camera shake is camera shake ... and perhaps you may be able to see it easier, because you can pixel peep more, but I don't think having 50mp will make it any harder or magnify the shake ... like using a tele lens does.

 

[StudentOfLight]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

 

[Eldar]

I have used mine primarily handheld, with everything from 11-24 to 600 and it works fine. With the 24-70 f2.8L II (no IS) I can do 1/FL in shutter speed. To be on the safe side I do 1/2xFL. With IS lenses it´s of course different. I have pixle peeped a lot and believe this problem is a bit exaggerated (I know I am fairly steady though).

Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).

I´m crossing my fingers for the new 1DX-II. Until then, I find a 1DX/5DSR combo to fill just about any need I can come up with. My 5DIII will most likely be inherited by my son.

 

[StudentOfLight]

I´m crossing my fingers for the new 1DX-II. Until then, I find a 1DX/5DSR combo to fill just about any need I can come up with. My 5DIII will most likely be inherited by my son.

If you're looking to adopt another son, just let me know

 

[StudentOfLight]

Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).

What do consider low light? I shoot events where I use between ISO 1600-3200 to retain ambiance and light my subjects with flash. What kind of file sizes are you getting shooting at these ISO settings?

 

[deleteme]

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.

While generally true, it is my experience that tripod mounted shooting ALWAYS beats handheld on still subjects. Even in my film days shooting at 1/500 sec I found significant sharpness improvement by mounting the camera on a tripod. (And I was a lot steadier then).
OTOH sharpness was acceptable handheld but IMO you lose the advantage of your high res camera if you think you are going to crop madly or make large prints.

 

[1982chris911]

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.

Everything possible ? very very easy ... just need a lot of light and a big test chart ... ;D ;D ;D

 

[mistaspeedy]

I agree with the school of thought that says the shutter speed for sharp shots will be the same between full frame and APS-C (with similar pixel density).
If you take an image with the 5DsR and crop it down to the resolution of the 7D mark II, you will get the same image that the 7D mark II produces. (cropping in post or taking the image with a crop-sensor camera makes no difference) If it is sharp on one camera, it will be sharp on the other. (although I do agree with the Z-axis point that was brought up, but don't think it influences a large percentage of shots because z-axis rotation happens to a much smaller degree than movements on the other axis).

I also agree with what was said about a tripod... on my point and shoot cameras and 20D (same pixel density as a 6D), I consistently get sharper images on a tripod compared to handheld... no matter the shutter speed.

 

[1982chris911]

(although I do agree with the Z-axis point that was brought up, but don't think it influences a large percentage of shots because z-axis rotation happens to a much smaller degree than movements on the other axis).

Says who ??? I always start to spin my camera around if I get into the grove ... ;-)

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.

"Just Say No

Don't use a tripod if you can help it. Having to carry one is a pain and thus cripples creativity."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/tripods.htm

We haven't said much about our Ken recently.

the Problem with KR is that many of the things he takes pictures of (his kids, family, dogs, palm trees in bright sun) you don't need a tripod for anyway ... ;-)

I also think he is very supportive with Canon recently ... therefore not much to criticize in this forum. Obviously love the 5d MkIII even with extremely low DR and loves all the lenses (11-24 and 100 - 400 II) from what I could read ... well the next "best camera in the world" from Nikon is around the corner with D850 ... so expect to hear more again soon ;D

 

[Busted Knuckles]

Been shooting a 5dSR for a week now. Technique is everything. Pixel peeping keeper rate at 1/FL is 50/50 i.e no or negligible camera blur. Falter a bit on technique and it is a snap shot for JPG on the web.

If there is any movement in either the subject or the button pusher, 1/2xFL seems wise for hand holding.

My trusted companion laptop really isn't up to the task of 26 meg JPG! and 80 Meg Raw files - lots of details, but I rented the camera for the details - and If I buy one, it will be for the details. So far I like it - love it? we will have to weight and see.

 

[Eldar]

Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).

What do consider low light? I shoot events where I use between ISO 1600-3200 to retain ambiance and light my subjects with flash. What kind of file sizes are you getting shooting at these ISO settings?

1600-3200 works fine. I have not tried beyond that.

 

[9VIII]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

 

[privatebydesign]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.

 

[1982chris911]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.

Clear to me but I am more talking about 100% level on a screen - one pixel on the picture equals one pixel on the screen

 

[9VIII]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.

You're saying we should downsize resolution in print to avoid blurr?
In a pinch, ok, if you're just snapping pictures of your dog, then whatever. But I seriously hope you're not suggesting that people intentionally downsize images to avoid the per-pixel impact of using a 50MP sensor.
That's like stacking bricks in your Ferrari to stop it from going so fast.

 

[photonius]

Hello,

I just had a talk about the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II regarding the issue of needing IS on all lenses when using the 5DsR and the former not being a good camera for hand held shots.

As the pixel density and pixel size in both cameras (7d MK II and 5Ds R) is nearly identical (5Ds R having the larger sensor of course), I personally see no difference in shake and motion blur introduced to pictures and in the way I should use lenses on the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II.

This means if I get a sharp image in the 7d MKII with a non IS lens (e.g. 135mm f2L) using an exposure time of e.g. 1/200 sec. this same image should just be as sharp with the 5DsR. Or to say it differently my hand and the lens do NOT know if there is an APS-C or FF sensor behind the lens. Therefore the whole discussion if I need shorter exposure times with the 5Ds R to get sharp hand held pictures is completely pointless as the later is basically just a 7d MK II with a bigger sensor.

Is this assumption correct or do I have some fault in my thoughts???

Kind Regards CK

on the one hand you are right, the same pixel density, so if the blur is across a single pixel, it will be the same on both cameras. but is the blur just a single pixel.
Let's say, you shake left or right. usually that is not a translational movement of one pixel left or right (i.e. say 4 micrometers), but rather a rotational shake, so let's say you turn by half a degree to the right. In one case, that half degree smears over 8688 pixels, in the other over 5472 pixels. So, at pixel peeping level, the blur is bigger on the sensors with more megapixels, i.e. in one case it would cover, say 8.7 pixels, in the other only 5.5 pixels. I let you calculate effects of focal length - whether you want to have same framing or different framing but same focal length, yourself.
Thus the 5Ds does need more stringent hand-holding rules.

 

[Don Haines]

I find that I have to shoot with a shutter speed that is twice as fast on a 7D2 as with a 5D2. The pixels are smaller so the same amount of motion blurs more pixels... Since the 5Ds has the same pixel density as the 7D2, I would expect that the same holds true for it.

Keep in mind that this is for pixel peeping sharpness. For the final outputted image, this does not apply. Let's say you are taking an image with a 7D2 and with a 5Ds. The two images are framed the same and shot at the same shutter speed. On both images, the blur covers 5 pixels. If you re-sample the 5Ds image to the same number of pixels as the 7D2 image, that blur becomes only 3 pixels....

So the answer is, if you are going to be using the image right down to the pixel level, not much difference between a crop camera ad a 5Ds for blur so treat it like a crop camera and use the rule of thumb of shutter speed = 1/twice the focal length. If you are going to be downsizing the image, treat it like a "normal" FF and use the rule of thumb of 1/focal length for shutter speed.

Also, remember that IS on your lens helps compensate for your shake, not subject motion... IS is useless for photographing hummingbirds

and don't forget about added stability from leaning on things, resting the lens barrel against trees or buildings, and even simple things like sitting in a chair.

 

[privatebydesign]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.

You're saying we should downsize resolution in print to avoid blurr?
In a pinch, ok, if you're just snapping pictures of your dog, then whatever. But I seriously hope you're not suggesting that people intentionally downsize images to avoid the per-pixel impact of using a 50MP sensor.
That's like stacking bricks in your Ferrari to stop it from going so fast.

No that isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is if you print both images to 20"x30", or even 20'x30', then the crop camera image, and its associated blur, is enlarged 2.56 times as much by area.

Or you can say, if you print the 5DSR image to 36"x24" then it will exhibit the same blur as the 7D MkII image enlarged to 22.5"x15", in other words, you can't just look at a 7D MkII image to see what blur results you will get in any same sized reproduction.

However, as 1982chris911 points out, the 100% view can give you some indication of potential assuming you also allow for the radial increase in rotational movement as pointed out and demoed very nicely by StudentOfLight.

 

[9VIII]

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.

Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.

Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.

You're saying we should downsize resolution in print to avoid blurr?
In a pinch, ok, if you're just snapping pictures of your dog, then whatever. But I seriously hope you're not suggesting that people intentionally downsize images to avoid the per-pixel impact of using a 50MP sensor.
That's like stacking bricks in your Ferrari to stop it from going so fast.

No that isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is if you print both images to 20"x30", or even 20'x30', then the crop camera image, and its associated blur, is enlarged 2.56 times as much by area.

Or you can say, if you print the 5DSR image to 36"x24" then it will exhibit the same blur as the 7D MkII image enlarged to 22.5"x15", in other words, you can't just look at a 7D MkII image to see what blur results you will get in any same sized reproduction.

However, as 1982chris911 points out, the 100% view can give you some indication of potential assuming you also allow for the radial increase in rotational movement as pointed out and demoed very nicely by StudentOfLight.

The issue is that you made the qualifying statement: "Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera". Which is not true.
What you're actually telling people is that if I'm going to print a 50MP full frame image to the same size as a 20MP crop image then I don't need to take the same precautions with the full frame camera because the focal length is effectively shorter.
It's not the same as what I thought you were saying at first, but it's not a whole lot different in practice.

Yes, you're right that when printing a 20MP crop image to the same size as a 50MP full frame image (using the same lens on both cameras) the same amount of pixel level blur is going to be more visible on the 20MP crop image than the 50MP full frame image.
But what that means for the 50MP image is that you're accepting a higher level of per-pixel motion blur, and still effectvely throwing away the extra resolution of the 50MP image. It's not much different from telling someone to downsample.
Unless you're downsampling, the 5Ds always needs to be used with settings adjusted according to a focal length multiplier (the same as the 7D2).

We may also be hitting one of these newfangled generation gaps in that I like to say that having a 515DPI cellphone screen is a highly valuable and effective use of resources, and a lot (like, a lot) of people in a wide variety of established industries don't like me saying that looking at something with that level of visual density ten inches in front of my face could possibly be of any practical value.
If you're printing 5Ds images to a 1" sticker, then maybe you can back off on the technique a bit, otherwise there is no circumstance where any pixel is any less important.
Welcome to 21st century photography, where postcards contain the same amount of visual information as an 8x10 medium format image.

 

[StudentOfLight]

Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).

What do consider low light? I shoot events where I use between ISO 1600-3200 to retain ambiance and light my subjects with flash. What kind of file sizes are you getting shooting at these ISO settings?

1600-3200 works fine. I have not tried beyond that.

This is excellent news. I typically use 1600 indoors or 3200 if it's more dimly lit. I'm looking forward to getting the 5Ds version towards the end of the year. ;D