Reprimanded for a photograph

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#21
TexPhoto said:
Let me ask the OP this: Why didn't you approach the woman and show her your great photo? Ask her to pose for you? If what you did was "culturally sensitive", why did you have to be secretive?
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To speak, or not to speak, of the Emporer's new clothes:

The wearer in the photo is apparently content to be seen so attired in a public place (the Dubai Mall) frequented by visitors from all over the world.

The inter-net is "a public place frequented by visitors from all over the world".

I think the photo captures a "fact" of life.

I find the contrast between the traditional and the contemporary interesting.

If a certain religious sect dyed their children's' hair green, that also might be considered "interesting".

If the group considered any notice taking or comment by "unbelievers" about their green-hair custom sufficient justification for violence, …that too would be "interesting".

It would also be good reason to be "secretive" (as a previous poster seemed to disapprove of) when drawing attention to or discussing the sect's practices.

If the sect's (or any other group's) preferences were to be the determinant of what was to be known by the rest of the world, the general knowledge-pool would be seriously restricted.

I support the anti-censorship faction, and applaud the photographer, …but advise caution.
 
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#22
jdramirez said:
sdsr said:
JPAZ said:
I am about to tick off some people, but feel the need to say a bit. I have traveled, and continue to travel, to some remarkable places on the planet. I have had the opportunity to travel to some of the holiest (insert your own definition here) Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist places on the planet. Please withhold the commentary about my Western attitude or parochialism.

When in any part of the world, I try to adhere to local cultural and religious sensitivities. I'd not enter a cathedral during services with a flash nor a Mosque without conservative attire and permission. I generally ask people before I take their photo. I take anyone's refusal to be photographed seriously.

But, seeing a man with a pot belly, t-shirt and baggy jeans smoking a cigarette followed by a woman covered head to foot in fabric (and the appropriate number of paces behind) on a 40 degree Celcius day is not culture or religion. It is repression and essentially slavery justified as culture and religion. Once, as part of an educational experience a group of us (male and female) tried on this garb and I can tell you it is pretty miserable.
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I'm not at all "ticked off," but I do find it a bit odd that you don't seem to realize that what you say in your third paragraph is a manifestation of the "Western attitude" mentioned in your first paragraph, not some objective, universal moral truth.
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do you really want to have a philosophical debate about morality? I'm pretty sure my minor in philosophy prepared me for a moment like this... unless it was just blow off classes... then it prepared me for Jack squat.
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To the extent your point is that this isn't the best place to debate morality, you may be right - though that debate had already begun when I made my comment. But I would be quite happy to have a philosophical debate about morality otherwise, elsewhere, and am delighted to learn that you are prepared for one.
 
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#23
Strikes me as kinda like the pedestrian killed in the crosswalk who had the right-of-way. Just because you can do something or may even have the right to, doesn't mean you are not putting your life at risk by exercising that right.

So, the question you need to ask, is "Is this photo important enough to risk my life over"? It certainly wouldn't be for me, but you might make a different call.
 
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#24
thepancakeman said:
Strikes me as kinda like the pedestrian killed in the crosswalk who had the right-of-way. Just because you can do something or may even have the right to, doesn't mean you are not putting your life at risk by exercising that right.

So, the question you need to ask, is "Is this photo important enough to risk my life over"? It certainly wouldn't be for me, but you might make a different call.
Click to expand...

give me a few to brush up on my Kant and Hegal... all I remember at the moment is that I was so bored... oh and the blonde with the long legs.
 
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#26
I know everyone loves to jump on the "americans are ignorant fatasses" bandwagon because it's easier than making a rational argument.... but come here to Orlando, FL (Disney and all of the parks/resorts) and tell me westerners are the only ones who are ignorant to foreign cultures and norms... Youll find easterners and europeans by the boatload portraying a bunch of lame stereotypes commonly associated with their own cultures that probably don't pertain to the average person where they are from...

I like the photo and I like it even more knowing there is controversy or risk of injury in getting it... fudge that lady's ankle (jk lol)...
 
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#28
You have to exercise caution in the Middle East and be aware of what the law is, not what you believe is culturally sensitive.
I have worked in the middle east. I know people who have spents days in just prison for talking to a local woman in Iran.
The locals in UAE do like the trappings of Western culture. You see Burkas and Guchi handbags. It is a strange mix and it is normal. You are not allowed to drink but the law turns a blind eye. If you are in a trraffic accident with a local, it is automatically your fault because you shouldn't be in their country.
There is the recent case of Marte Deborah Dalelv who was imprisoned in UAE after being raped: "The 24-year-old reported the March attack to the police but found herself charged with having extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, and perjury."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

This is not me being melodramatic but if you had been seen taking this photo you may have regretted it.
 
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#29
It doesn't matter what the activity is or what the country is, when your guide/host says "don't do this" and you go ahead and do it anyway, you have burned some bridges. At the minimum you have lost a friend. Sometimes you will get away with it, sometime you will get robbed and beaten, sometimes jailed, sometimes....... it's not worth it.

Some societies are not tolerant of those who break thier rules.... you could have been arrested for that photo and most likely your host would have been arrested too.
 
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#30
Dear Friends.
Yes, I travel around the world in every 2 years, and I have my Rules, when I go to another country:
1) Do not carry your PRESS Card/ PRESS BADGE ( Although you are the Press Photographer), That is the Sign of spies , who try to dig the Bad press/ Bad News in that Country ( Police state)---You might lose your Vacation time in the local Jail.
2) In the Night time, Leave the Big cameras and Big Lens with the Vault of the Hotel Manager's Office or With your Wife, who do not want to go with you.---Just Carry and Shoot the Photos with $ 150 US Dollars Cheap Pocket , Point and Shoot Camera .---IF the Bad Guy want them, Just ask very Polite to get the Memory Card Back, And Give some money to the Bad Guy to buy the New Memory card---And that will very safe from getting hurt.
3), Before you leave the Hotel to shoot in the early morning or night time for Beautiful Sunset/ Sun rise---Talk to the Hotel Manager , to hire the out of Duty Local staff./ Local Security Guard to go with you---Yes, Still use Cheap Point and Shoot Camera----Because the Hired guards , might have the Bad Friends , who need your Big Cameras and Big Lens that he see in that morning----when you check in the Hotel.
4) Go every where in another country, with the group of friends, or the big group of tourists---NEVER GO ALONE with your Big Gears, Yes, You might be disappear from the earth that day.
5), You Might get the Second spare Camera in the Backpack-----In-case of the Police Watch you take the photos of Beautiful Police station, Airport, or the Beautiful Palace, And That police do not like you, He might ask to see your Photos in the Camera, AND HIS HANDS too shake---He might Drop your Camera by Accident, And He might say Sorry to you---Yes, The Big Lens is Damaged and Your Big Camera is Gone too---Yes, You still have another Camera in your Back pack= That still good news.
6) YES, Before you shoot any Place, Try to see the Guards, or Police around there, and Ask Permission to take the Photos---Although, You try to shoot the Beautiful Toilet Building, Yes, You might Shoot the Very Important People , who just use that Toilet, And That Might be 1-2 Night in the Jail time, If the guy see you take his Photo.
7) never use Your I-Phone or the Smart Phone take any Photos---Yes, These Phone are very High cost in another country, and every one want them---If Some one do not like you use that Phone take the Photos, They might Grab your I-Phone and Run-----Too bad, They/ He run faster than you.
8) Never Put your Backpack under the table , when you in the restaurant, and try to go to the bath room, Yes, When you come back = Your bag is gone.
9) I love my KATA 3 in 1-30 Backpack--That I can modify the Belt and use as Front sling Bag, Keep my backpack on my front part of the Belly all the time, Day or night----OR I Wrap around my backpack with the Stainless steel Net Protection, From The Razor Blade or Box cutter from the Bad people.
10) Never drink any water from the glass---Just buy the Bottle water and keep with you all the time.

Enjoy my 2 cents Tricks that I use past 30 years, and just all the Good thing happens to me on all trip around the world.
Surapon Sujjavanich, AIA, CPS Gold Member
Apex, NC., USA.
 

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#31
paul13walnut5 said:
I wouldn;t not have thought this shot worth the hassle.
I wouldn't have been confident about the cultural norms of photographing an exposed part of an otherwise concealed body.
I don't speak arabic.
I don't know the law.
I just wouldn't do it.
On a personal basis.
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Agreed

+ when I'm traveling I like to respect the laws, traditions and culture of my hosts. Not much evidence of this going on in this shot. Clearly many locals would have found it offensive.
 
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#32
A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing" -- and just wait for google glass 3.0, that will be a brain implant :)

Regarding the advice "make sure the person knows you are taking a picture of them", I'm sorry, but that doesn't always work. I have personally traveled all over Europe, the US and a couple of places in China and I always make sure the person sees me when I take a picture of them (so they have the opportunity to say, or nod, "no", which I always respect). However, in the OP what was the photographer supposed to do? Run to the lady and tell her: "sorry to interrupt, but can you please keep walking the way you were just walking before, so I can take a picture of your contrasting shoes/dress"? c'mong now.

My view is simple: if you are hiding and/or taking a picture of a person showing them in a way they might have not wished to be seen, then you are not playing nice. If you are capturing something that everybody is seeing and the subject is aware of the visibility, well ... it's fair game.
 
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#34
Larry said:
TexPhoto said:
Let me ask the OP this: Why didn't you approach the woman and show her your great photo? Ask her to pose for you? If what you did was "culturally sensitive", why did you have to be secretive?
Click to expand...



To speak, or not to speak, of the Emporer's new clothes:

The wearer in the photo is apparently content to be seen so attired in a public place (the Dubai Mall) frequented by visitors from all over the world.

The inter-net is "a public place frequented by visitors from all over the world".

I think the photo captures a "fact" of life.

I find the contrast between the traditional and the contemporary interesting.

If a certain religious sect dyed their children's' hair green, that also might be considered "interesting".

If the group considered any notice taking or comment by "unbelievers" about their green-hair custom sufficient justification for violence, …that too would be "interesting".

It would also be good reason to be "secretive" (as a previous poster seemed to disapprove of) when drawing attention to or discussing the sect's practices.

If the sect's (or any other group's) preferences were to be the determinant of what was to be known by the rest of the world, the general knowledge-pool would be seriously restricted.

I support the anti-censorship faction, and applaud the photographer, …but advise caution.
Click to expand...

You are missing the point. I am not saying don't take the photo. I am saying don't take the photo and then try to portray your self as "culturally sensitive" when you have obviously broken a written (and well known) rule of that culture! And had that explained to you by your "part of that culture" guide.
 
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#35
anthonyd said:
A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing" -- and just wait for google glass 3.0, that will be a brain implant :)

Regarding the advice "make sure the person knows you are taking a picture of them", I'm sorry, but that doesn't always work. I have personally traveled all over Europe, the US and a couple of places in China and I always make sure the person sees me when I take a picture of them (so they have the opportunity to say, or nod, "no", which I always respect). However, in the OP what was the photographer supposed to do? Run to the lady and tell her: "sorry to interrupt, but can you please keep walking the way you were just walking before, so I can take a picture of your contrasting shoes/dress"? c'mong now.

My view is simple: if you are hiding and/or taking a picture of a person showing them in a way they might have not wished to be seen, then you are not playing nice. If you are capturing something that everybody is seeing and the subject is aware of the visibility, well ... it's fair game.
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Its complicated. Taking the photos is often allowed, but posting them on the internet can be invasion of privacy, and posting them on a for profit site where the site makes money based on photos posted there might run into more legal difficulties.

A photo should not be posted on the internet without written permission. In some Muslim countries, they will attack or even jail the woman who didn't even know here photo was taken.
 
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#36
anthonyd said:
A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing"
Click to expand...

But some do see a difference. The Amish, for instance, tend to view photographs as graven images, don't like having their photographs taken, and disapprove of portrait photography.

http://www.padutchcountry.com/towns-and-heritage/amish-country/amish-and-photographs.asp

Fortunately for those who don't respect their views, they're also pacifists....
 
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#37
Mt Spokane Photography said:
In some Muslim countries, they will attack or even jail the woman who didn't even know here (sic) photo was taken.
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One should be careful about accepting "facts" posted on the inter-net, but the very thought of such a practice must make a civilized person's jaw drop. Outrage is a very mild description for what I feel about the idea.

If it is in fact a result of the teachings of some religion, ..."respecting" that religion is incomprehensible to me.
Respect should not be a blank check.

Brutal behavior by any name is not a rose.
 
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#38
The people's of the world do not share one set of beliefs. Weather we like it or not, foreign nations differ from ours and some of the rights we take for granted do not exist there.

It is one thing to disagree with those beliefs, it is another thing to travel to that country and violate those beliefs, potentially making yourself into a martyr and harming innocents through your outrage.....

Even here in Canada, there have been several " honor killings" in the last few years committed by people from other cultures. To us, it is abhorrent, to them it is not. In several countries women have been know to spontaneously combust.... And the authorities look the other way.... In some countries you can be killed for going to school.... None of this is right by American or European standards, but it happens. The world is not all sweetness and flowers.
 
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#40
Taking photos of women in Oman and UAE is a sensitive issue (so I didn't), but the men are a proud people and although protective of their women, will gladly pose for you! Despite being generally apprehensive about people photography myself I took some really great shots. Truly a fantastic destination:

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And I love this shot especially (It's now a canvas in my dining room):

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Did he mind??? This is what happened when I asked him if it was ok to take his photo:

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More:

http://www.mrsfotografie.nl/reizen/oman-uae-2010/
 
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