Some clarity on the 1Dx = 1Dc minus firmware... and a solution.

[Sitting Elf]

There was recently a long thread regarding the reality that the Canon 1Dc is mechanically identical to the 1Dx and is simply a firmware difference... that costs an additional $6000.

Most placed the blame on Canon; calling it a ripoff and gouging. BUT... that is NOT the case.

As it turns out, this is in response to European Union rules. The EU considers 4k video, even on a still camera, as a Professional VIDEO camera, and the taxes, duties, and other trade tariffs are excessive. Canon cannot sell the 1Dc in Europe as a Still Camera. This is EXACTLY the same reason that still cameras like the 1Dx have a video recording limitation of 29:59 minutes. At 30:00 capability, it becomes a "Video Camera" under EU rules.

This is screwing non-EU consumers because Canon is wary of getting slammed for violating EU rules, and probably afraid that offering the firmware upgrade only in non-EU countries would cause an underground blackmarket of product making its way to the EU. (Much like the graymarket here)

There IS a potential solution that I thought of....one that could solve the geographical issue. It's not something that Canon probably would have thought of though.. (Canon is not know for thinking "outside the box")

They could upgrade the 1Dx's with firmware that would REQUIRE the use of a Canon GP-E1 GPS unit that would have to be on the camera in order to film in 4X. The firmware would bar the use of 4X when the GPS unit showed the location to be anywhere within the EU... or within any OTHER country that had the same type of penalizing tariffs. Simple, and easy to do in firmware. I'd pay $1000 for the upgrade and buy the GP-E1 if that were the case.

Thoughts?

 

[DB]

The CR guy can see which country I'm in because of my IP address. But I can block or hide my IP address from any internet Proxy Server (some hackers can actually have a different IP address display e.g. to show that they're in New York when they're actually in Poland!). So your GPS idea would not work - hackers would find a way around it.

Secondly, why on earth would Canon Inc. or any other consumer electronics manufacturer wish to sell a 'dumbed- down' product for more money in Europe than a superior one (in capabilities) in the USA for less money (as prices there are already cheaper even accounting for FX rates + local taxes)?

Apple Inc. does not have a British iPhone 5 that is inferior to a Norwegian (non-EU) iPhone 5, nor would they ever consider doing that to their product lines. Can you imagine an Australian iPad 3 have lower resolution than an American iPad3. The 1DX is the 1DX no matter where you buy it in the world, and that is how it should be.

 

[Sitting Elf]

The CR guy can see which country I'm in because of my IP address. But I can block or hide my IP address from any internet Proxy Server (some hackers can actually have a different IP address display e.g. to show that they're in New York when they're actually in Poland!). So your GPS idea would not work - hackers would find a way around it.

Secondly, why on earth would Canon Inc. or any other consumer electronics manufacturer wish to sell a 'dumbed- down' product for more money in Europe than a superior one (in capabilities) in the USA for less money (as prices there are already cheaper even accounting for FX rates + local taxes)?

Apple Inc. does not have a British iPhone 5 that is inferior to a Norwegian (non-EU) iPhone 5, nor would they ever consider doing that to their product lines. Can you imagine an Australian iPad 3 have lower resolution than an American iPad3. The 1DX is the 1DX no matter where you buy it in the world, and that is how it should be.

To your first point. You are correct. I spend time in Germany and Nigeria for work, and when I'm using the internet there, I use a VPN to make it look like I'm originating in Miami, Florida. Works great. Having said that, the impetus here is for Canon... not the end user... to be exonerated from liability of paying EU tariffs. If a hacker bypasses a GPS (VERY DIFFICULT), then it's on the camera owner, not Canon.

To your second point. I am not suggesting a "dumbed down" product. I'm saying eliminate the 1Dc designation, and offer an "upgrade" to the 1Dx which would cost MUCH lower outside the EU due to the rules in Europe. Europeans already pay tons more for various foreign items and then VAT on top of that.

Finally, in no way am I suggesting that EU citizens should be given a lesser product.. only that the rest of the world could have a 4K Video camera upgrade capability for a LOT less money, while having the same capability in the EU would just be subject to existing, crazy, penalizing laws, and cost the equivalent of $5-6000 more. The point being that EU citizens and organizations should be fighting THEIR penalties and not subjecting the rest of the world to their laws. In North America, we are NOT the EU, and shouldn't be subject to EU nonsense.

 

[DavidRiesenberg]

Sorry but I'm not buying it. Sure, there may be more taxes involved but certainly not 6000$ worth of taxes.
But the reason I'm doubting this conclusion is that this price difference of $6K positions the camera in two extremely different markets. It not a small issue of being slightly more expensive that some competitor but essentially being product that caters to a different costumer. I simply don't see Canon letting EU regulations dictate their corporate strategy worldwide. Especially since there are ways around it.
The camera can have different prices in different markets. It would create a black / grey market like you mentioned but that's not Canon's problem. Even firmware upgrades can be locked to regions. Sure, hacking it would probably not be too difficult but again, that's not Canon's problem.

 

[Sitting Elf]

Here's a link to a review that has direct answers from Canon regarding this issue. I also agree that $6000 is heavier than needed, but it would still be excessively more in the EU.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x

 

[naskatar]

Import duty to the EU for a video camera is 4.9% (professional or not), for a digital still camera it is 0%.
A digital still camera may record video but no longer than 29:59 min.

So this is for sure not the reason for the higher price of the 1Dc.

 

[Sitting Elf]

Well, after digging deeper, it appears that Canon's focus is on marketing primarily to high-end pure cinematographers... and as was stated by one of their reps, they are essentially charging what they believe the market will bear.

So, from a business perspective, that's the proper price point. Perceived value and a willingness to pay for it.
I wish that it were available for we lowly simple pro-level guys, but apparently Canon feels there are enough buyers equal to James Cameron to justify the price.

For what it's worth, Apple has the same pricing formula, and I have certainly helped them maintain their 40-60% profit margin over the last six years!

 

[Loswr]

... they are essentially charging what they believe the market will bear.

Which is what every successful business tries to do. Why are we even having this discussion?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

There was recently a long thread regarding the reality that the Canon 1Dc is mechanically identical to the 1Dx and is simply a firmware difference... that costs an additional $6000.

Most placed the blame on Canon; calling it a ripoff and gouging. BUT... that is NOT the case.

As it turns out, this is in response to European Union rules. The EU considers 4k video, even on a still camera, as a Professional VIDEO camera, and the taxes, duties, and other trade tariffs are excessive. Canon cannot sell the 1Dc in Europe as a Still Camera. This is EXACTLY the same reason that still cameras like the 1Dx have a video recording limitation of 29:59 minutes. At 30:00 capability, it becomes a "Video Camera" under EU rules.

This is screwing non-EU consumers because Canon is wary of getting slammed for violating EU rules, and probably afraid that offering the firmware upgrade only in non-EU countries would cause an underground blackmarket of product making its way to the EU. (Much like the graymarket here)

There IS a potential solution that I thought of....one that could solve the geographical issue. It's not something that Canon probably would have thought of though.. (Canon is not know for thinking "outside the box")

They could upgrade the 1Dx's with firmware that would REQUIRE the use of a Canon GP-E1 GPS unit that would have to be on the camera in order to film in 4X. The firmware would bar the use of 4X when the GPS unit showed the location to be anywhere within the EU... or within any OTHER country that had the same type of penalizing tariffs. Simple, and easy to do in firmware. I'd pay $1000 for the upgrade and buy the GP-E1 if that were the case.

Thoughts?

Who records 4k video in longer than 30 minute chunks? I don't believe this is the slightest bit of the reason.

And are you telling me that all video and camcorders start at $6000 in the EU??????

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

... they are essentially charging what they believe the market will bear.

Which is what every successful business tries to do. Why are we even having this discussion?

Because a business also tries to became the go to, establish dominance and not take a winning hand and get greedy and turn into just one of many others.

 

[nitelife2]

The CR guy can see which country I'm in because of my IP address. But I can block or hide my IP address from any internet Proxy Server (some hackers can actually have a different IP address display e.g. to show that they're in New York when they're actually in Poland!). So your GPS idea would not work - hackers would find a way around it.

Secondly, why on earth would Canon Inc. or any other consumer electronics manufacturer wish to sell a 'dumbed- down' product for more money in Europe than a superior one (in capabilities) in the USA for less money (as prices there are already cheaper even accounting for FX rates + local taxes)?

Apple Inc. does not have a British iPhone 5 that is inferior to a Norwegian (non-EU) iPhone 5, nor would they ever consider doing that to their product lines. Can you imagine an Australian iPad 3 have lower resolution than an American iPad3. The 1DX is the 1DX no matter where you buy it in the world, and that is how it should be.

...

If a hacker bypasses a GPS (VERY DIFFICULT), then it's on the camera owner, not Canon.

...

Bypassing your GPS check is everything but difficult. You could build a device that sends (usually via serial protocol) faked GPS data to the camera (e.g. location is NY). The format of the GPS data is well known and even if Canon use a proprietary format then it should be easy to sniff the serial communiacation and decode the format.

And if that doesnt help you could patch the firmware and remove that part from the code that does the decision whether you are allowed to use extra functions.

sorry, but that doesnt work.

 

[paul13walnut5]

If it's just an EU issue, then I would just buy grey.

Not that I would in a million years buy a 1DC over a c500, if I was at the end of the market that needed 4k.

At that end, you don't buy a amalgamated jack of all trades, you buy, or hire the tool for the job.

Canon must see a market for it, I guess, but I don't.

 

[BrianMichael]

Sorry but I'm not buying it. Sure, there may be more taxes involved but certainly not 6000$ worth of taxes.
But the reason I'm doubting this conclusion is that this price difference of $6K positions the camera in two extremely different markets. It not a small issue of being slightly more expensive that some competitor but essentially being product that caters to a different costumer. I simply don't see Canon letting EU regulations dictate their corporate strategy worldwide. Especially since there are ways around it.
The camera can have different prices in different markets. It would create a black / grey market like you mentioned but that's not Canon's problem. Even firmware upgrades can be locked to regions. Sure, hacking it would probably not be too difficult but again, that's not Canon's problem.

I agree with you David

 

[Axilrod]

The 1DC is NOT identical inside, they did something for more effective heat dissipation. I think if you did get the 1DC firmware on a 1DX it would probably catch on fire (maybe not that bad, but I'm sure it would shut down at the very least).

As for the price difference, I think alot of it was due to R&D costs and the fact that they'll sell a lot less of these than they will any other DSLR body. But I've heard nothing but praise from people that have pulled the trigger. It's definitely not the camera for everything (no one camera is), but for some things it will be very useful.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

The 1DC is NOT identical inside, they did something for more effective heat dissipation. I think if you did get the 1DC firmware on a 1DX it would probably catch on fire (maybe not that bad, but I'm sure it would shut down at the very least).

As for the price difference, I think alot of it was due to R&D costs and the fact that they'll sell a lot less of these than they will any other DSLR body. But I've heard nothing but praise from people that have pulled the trigger. It's definitely not the camera for everything (no one camera is), but for some things it will be very useful.

Yeah a $2 heat sink's worth of difference inside.

 

[ITshooter]

The 1DC is NOT identical inside, they did something for more effective heat dissipation. I think if you did get the 1DC firmware on a 1DX it would probably catch on fire (maybe not that bad, but I'm sure it would shut down at the very least).

As for the price difference, I think alot of it was due to R&D costs and the fact that they'll sell a lot less of these than they will any other DSLR body. But I've heard nothing but praise from people that have pulled the trigger. It's definitely not the camera for everything (no one camera is), but for some things it will be very useful.

Canon's not going to let us find out, but I'm curious what the 1DX can do. Canon aggressively threatened to prosecute hackers who mess with the 1DX firmware. The company hasn't taken this step before, so I imagine the 1DX is capable of filming 4K, at least capable enough that hackers would feel motivated to try. Whether that means the camera will overheat and shut off after two minutes is another question. But I bet some people would live with that sort of limitation if it meant getting APS-H 4K for less than $12,000. Then again, I think the 1DC's 35mm crop mode is a pretty big deal too, and that's almost certainly something the 1DX could replicate, optimized heat sink or not. Given that Canon has decided that only the C-series camera are entitled to 1000+ lines of resolution, protecting that 35mm crop mode might be part of the plan to.

Whatever the actual engineering behind the cameras, I agree that the 1DC, for all the flak it generated over its price, is garnering very positive reviews. Doesn't fit everybody, but for specific workflows, it's a killer camera. It'll be interested to see if a 5DC or 7DC appears. If Canon ditched 4K but offered the sharp Super 35mm mode with a decent codec, I think a lot of people would be interested.

 

[KyleSTL]

Canon's not going to let us find out, but I'm curious what the 1DX can do. Canon aggressively threatened to prosecute hackers who mess with the 1DX firmware. The company hasn't taken this step before, so I imagine the 1DX is capable of filming 4K, at least capable enough that hackers would feel motivated to try. Whether that means the camera will overheat and shut off after two minutes is another question. But I bet some people would live with that sort of limitation if it meant getting APS-H 4K for less than $12,000. Then again, I think the 1DC's 35mm crop mode is a pretty big deal too, and that's almost certainly something the 1DX could replicate, optimized heat sink or not. Given that Canon has decided that only the C-series camera are entitled to 1000+ lines of resolution, protecting that 35mm crop mode might be part of the plan to.

Whatever the actual engineering behind the cameras, I agree that the 1DC, for all the flak it generated over its price, is garnering very positive reviews. Doesn't fit everybody, but for specific workflows, it's a killer camera. It'll be interested to see if a 5DC or 7DC appears. If Canon ditched 4K but offered the sharp Super 35mm mode with a decent codec, I think a lot of people would be interested.

Then what will we colloquially call the 5D Mark I? That [unofficial] name is already taken. I watched the recent video about capturing individual frames from 4K for photo printing and thought that it was amazing, but I'm astounded by two aspects of this new means of capture: 1) the amount of data 4K video produces [~4GB/min for the 1D C], and 2) the time-consuming process [I assume] it would take to select individual frames within video footage (this is before any post-processing of the image).

 

[cookinghusband]

There was recently a long thread regarding the reality that the Canon 1Dc is mechanically identical to the 1Dx and is simply a firmware difference... that costs an additional $6000.

Most placed the blame on Canon; calling it a ripoff and gouging. BUT... that is NOT the case.

As it turns out, this is in response to European Union rules. The EU considers 4k video, even on a still camera, as a Professional VIDEO camera, and the taxes, duties, and other trade tariffs are excessive. Canon cannot sell the 1Dc in Europe as a Still Camera. This is EXACTLY the same reason that still cameras like the 1Dx have a video recording limitation of 29:59 minutes. At 30:00 capability, it becomes a "Video Camera" under EU rules.

This is screwing non-EU consumers because Canon is wary of getting slammed for violating EU rules, and probably afraid that offering the firmware upgrade only in non-EU countries would cause an underground blackmarket of product making its way to the EU. (Much like the graymarket here)

There IS a potential solution that I thought of....one that could solve the geographical issue. It's not something that Canon probably would have thought of though.. (Canon is not know for thinking "outside the box")

They could upgrade the 1Dx's with firmware that would REQUIRE the use of a Canon GP-E1 GPS unit that would have to be on the camera in order to film in 4X. The firmware would bar the use of 4X when the GPS unit showed the location to be anywhere within the EU... or within any OTHER country that had the same type of penalizing tariffs. Simple, and easy to do in firmware. I'd pay $1000 for the upgrade and buy the GP-E1 if that were the case.

Thoughts?

Who records 4k video in longer than 30 minute chunks? I don't believe this is the slightest bit of the reason.

And are you telling me that all video and camcorders start at $6000 in the EU??????

I do live event and concert recording with my 1DC. I wish I can record 4K video in more then 32mins chunk.If I have a 256GB card I sure will record 64mins continuously, you never know when you will miss something the few seconds you start and stop the camera.

It is just a extra tariff problem of 29.?? min (actually I thought it was US not the EU)

PS the record time limit of the 1 DC is memory card size only

 

[paul13walnut5]

There was recently a long thread regarding the reality that the Canon 1Dc is mechanically identical to the 1Dx and is simply a firmware difference... that costs an additional $6000.

I don't know if it is or isn't electronically or mechanically the same. And I don't care.

I'm really interested in the 'simple' firmware difference.

Can you write firmware or processing alogorythms for temporal and spatial compression etc?
I'm sure the magic lantern guys will have a chuckle at that 'simple' bit too!

My office mac would cost around £10k to replace, around £6k of that is 'simply' software. But my Mac wouldn't be worth anything to me without that software. See what I'm getting at?

The 1DC is a limited market product, so market forces apply, economies of scale apply and absorbtion of R&D costs apply. Oh and Canon, like Nikon, like Blackmagic, in fact unless you are the worlds last cardinal altruist, I bet you expect to get paid for your work as well? For what it's worth I think the 1DC is a 'wrong' product. Wrong form factor for a video device costing 10k. Folk will accept limitations if they are getting a lot of bang for their buck, but 10k is too much to spend against things like the Sony F's which are dedicated video devices with conventional switchgear etc.

This is screwing non-EU consumers because Canon is wary of getting slammed for violating EU rules, and probably afraid that offering the firmware upgrade only in non-EU countries would cause an underground blackmarket of product making its way to the EU. (Much like the graymarket here)

Emmm, the underworld blackmarket and the graymarket are different things, and both exist quite independantly in the EU and US.

I'm not being funny, but I've bought quite a bit of graymarket gear. I would be really disturbed if I thought the vendors were re-investing my cash in prostitutes, people smuggling and heroin dealing.

 

[Harry Muff]

Hasn't there been a tear down yet of the two cameras? ifixit are famed for stripping down every new gadget, why don't they give it a go?