Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800

[zlatko]

Re: Wow...

I guess I'm late to this topic but had to laugh at all the ridiculous comments. First of all...it's funny how many on here 'don't need' the pixels from the D800...sounds awfully like the Nikon crowd when the 5D2 was first announced. Secondly, the D800/D800E sensor is one of the best out there today...period. Even if you don't 'need' the resolution it still offers better dynamic range than your 5D3.

Count me in as a loyal Canon customer who is tired of waiting for the answer to the D800. I'm still slugging away with my 5D2 until such time as Canon catches up in their sensor design...which I'm sure they will at some point.

It all depends on what photography one does. Some people actually don't need the 36mp of the D800. I'm not waiting for Canon's answer to the D800 because I never print big enough to justify it. I have a friend with two D800 cameras and he often shoots them in the 15mp crop mode because having tens of thousands of 36mp files is a PITA. I have another friend who back in 2005 bought *and returned* the original 12.8mp 5D because he felt it had too many megapixels; 8mp was already plenty for him.

If I were choosing between the Sony A7 and A7R, I would choose the lower mp A7 because it's cheaper, has a quieter shutter and has all of the mp that I want. Of course, a photographer who needs to print large will have a different view. If I actually needed 36mp, I would have bought the D800 or A7R. Why wait? Switching brands isn't the big deal that it used to be. With eBay one can convert one's gear to cash in just days and get market value for it easily.

 

[3kramd5]

Just once digic5+ is good for at least 180MB/sec (5D3 raws at 6FPS). Given Moore's "law," it would shock me if something like the core logic chip fundamentally precludes higher-resolution cameras.

That's the transfer rate of data, i.e. throughput, of already processed data. What is important is the number of instructions per second that the little guy can do ... and then how many instructions are required to process the data from the sensor's A/D-converter. Not stuff that Canon gives out readily, but it can be deduced from current camera models.

Yes, it's data rate. In any case, one digic 5+ is good for at least 6 23MP captures per second, soup to nuts, all operations. Maybe it doesn't scale linearly, i.e. perhaps it's not safe to assume one can do 3 46MP captures, but I bet it can do 1.5-2. And that's with a single 2+ year old chip. Canon can do dual processors even in a half sized body (7D), and they can do it with modern cores.

 

[Aglet]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

don't forget a few recent Canon products causing people allergic or other skin reactions to poor quality materials.

Way to miss the point... :

Did Canon rapidly release a new product for which the main 'upgrade' was to correct those flaws? No, they initiated a recall and fixed the affected products. Did Canon let problems with a product escalate to a point where the most populous nation in the world banned sale of the product in their country? *cough* D600 *cough*

THE POINT is that Nikon is not the only mfr guilty of inadequate testing and QC. Stop gazing at your reflex mirror and pay attention.
And what's with all the couging, you got some FPN stuck in your throat?

 

[Orangutan]

THE POINT is that Nikon is not the only mfr guilty of inadequate testing and QC. Stop gazing at your reflex mirror and pay attention.

Just trying to make sure I understand your point:

CANON QA problem: one batch of rubber caused allergic reactions in some people. Devices otherwise functional.

CANON'S Response: Recall and fix at no charge


NIKON QA problem: D600 and SB900 problems caused malfunctions

NIKON'S Reponse: (1) Deny; (2) Delay; (3) Grudgingly repair after CA lawsuit filed; (4) Introduce "new" models that are otherwise identical, but with the flaws purportedly removed.

Are you saying these are equivalent?

If yes, you are...um...how to put this gently...sadly mistaken.

If no, then your previous argument is void.

And what's with all the couging, you got some FPN stuck in your throat?

Perhaps it's oil from a D600. 8)

 

[Loswr]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

don't forget a few recent Canon products causing people allergic or other skin reactions to poor quality materials.

Way to miss the point... :

Did Canon rapidly release a new product for which the main 'upgrade' was to correct those flaws? No, they initiated a recall and fixed the affected products. Did Canon let problems with a product escalate to a point where the most populous nation in the world banned sale of the product in their country? *cough* D600 *cough*

THE POINT is that Nikon is not the only mfr guilty of inadequate testing and QC. Stop gazing at your reflex mirror and pay attention.
And what's with all the couging, you got some FPN stuck in your throat?

No, the REAL point isn't that design and QC failures occur – that's a given. The REAL issue is how manufacturers deal with those issues when they occur – announce a recall and fix the problem at their expense, or announce an 'update' that passes the cost of the 'fix' (replacement) on directly to the consumer.

FPN isn't causing my cough, I'm not the one who tries hacking up 4-5 stop exposure pushes in post.

 

[9VIII]

I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June. Why am I not jumping ship? I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

Nikon's image editor sucks, their live view sucks, their IR only flash system sucks, their Wi-Fi adapter sucks, their non-touchscreens suck, their completely random lens and body compatibility sucks...

That's just off the top of my head.

The BigMP Canon is going to poop rainbows.

 

[eml58]

Nikon's image editor sucks, their live view sucks, their IR only flash system sucks, their Wi-Fi adapter sucks, their non-touchscreens suck, their completely random lens and body compatibility sucks...

Yeeees, but, what are you reeeeeally trying to say ??

FPN isn't causing my cough, I'm not the one who tries hacking up 4-5 stop exposure pushes in post.

Ouch !!!

 

[eml58]

Perhaps it's oil from a D600. 8)

That pretty well made my morning, maybe my day as I'll keep thinking about this all day, really, very funny ;D

I know I shouldn't, but sometimes I can't help myself, my own experience Canon/Nikon similarish issue.

Bought the D800 (doesn't matter why, believed the hype, loss of common sense, interested to see), could not get anything but OOF Images, contacted Nikon and was told I needed to improve my skills, kept trying, then read about Tom Hogan having same issues plus a huge amount of other D800 users, turned out the Camera had left/right focussing issues, Nikon eventually replaced, but same issue with 2nd Body, Nikon eventually replaced & I sold the D800 unopened still in the Box, along with the Underwater Seacam Housing and 4 Lenses I'de purchased, not a great experience but it happens.

Biggest issue here was I was so annoyed I sold the 14-24f/2.8 Lens as well, that was a mistake, should have kept that Lens.

Own 2 x 1Dx Bodies, got a Flyer from Canon Singapore there was a known issue with lack of lubrication in the AF motor & I should return the bodies for repair (seems everyone knew it was an issue except me, I'de just returned from Tanzania where I'de shot 15k Images between the two 1Dx Bodies, issue ?? what issue ??), 1 day in Canon Singapore, issue (which wasn't an issue for me to this point in any case) fixed and Cameras work just like they did before knowing about the issue, professionally handled known issue repaired, this happens with any mechanical device, Nikon or Canon, it's how it's resolved that counts.

You could also compare this situation with the way Nikon handled the AF Motor/Oil throwing/Grease Splattering issue of the D600, they fixed this issue by bringing out the D610, even die hard Nikon friends of mine were disappointed at Nikon's showing in this instance, just seems.....wrong, that Nikon chose to do this, the D800 issue didn't put me off Nikon too much, I had a great time with the D3x, but the way Nikon handled the D600/D610 has ensured I'll not buy/try another Nikon camera in this lifetime, you just can't do this sort of crap & expect Brand Loyalty.

 

[eml58]

Excuse my ignorance Guys, what's FPN ?? Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong Century.

 

[privatebydesign]

Excuse my ignorance Guys, what's FPN ?? Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong Century.

Fixed Pattern Noise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-pattern_noise

https://www.google.com/search?q=fixed+pattern+noise&client=firefox-a&hs=swr&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pdOHU5PUF9axsATk4YDIBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1905&bih=1056

Some say Canon sensors are unusable because of how much worse they are with FPN than Nikon/Sony sensors.

 

[eml58]

Excuse my ignorance Guys, what's FPN ?? Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong Century.

Fixed Pattern Noise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-pattern_noise

https://www.google.com/search?q=fixed+pattern+noise&client=firefox-a&hs=swr&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pdOHU5PUF9axsATk4YDIBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1905&bih=1056

Some say Canon sensors are unusable because of how much worse they are with FPN than Nikon/Sony sensors.

Oh ! Ok, Thanks Private.

Nor sure I'de agree with what "some" say, but what the hell do I know, didn't even know Canon had an issue with "FPN", I thought maybe FPN meant "Foul Play Nikon", a play on the D600/D610 fiasco, I guess I got that wrong.

 

[Sporgon]

Excuse my ignorance Guys, what's FPN ?? Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong Century.

Fixed Pattern Noise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-pattern_noise

https://www.google.com/search?q=fixed+pattern+noise&client=firefox-a&hs=swr&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pdOHU5PUF9axsATk4YDIBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1905&bih=1056

Some say Canon sensors are unusable because of how much worse they are with FPN than Nikon/Sony sensors.

Oh ! Ok, Thanks Private.

Nor sure I'de agree with what "some" say, but what the hell do I know, didn't even know Canon had an issue with "FPN", I thought maybe FPN meant "Foul Play Nikon", a play on the D600/D610 fiasco, I guess I got that wrong.

PBD was being sarcastic about FPN, or at least the opposite of facetious, whatever that is. Under expose the Canon sensor by five stops or take a picture with the lens cap on and you get more noise than with an exmor sensor. Oh Horror !

I was up in the English Yorkshire Dales for a few days earlier this week taking panoramics of the waterfalls. Yes I can now stitch water ! Shot some of them as a 75 x 100 format at about 180 mp. The depth and resolution is amazing, but this comes from the large format rather than the mp. Puts 36 mp on 24 x 36 format in perspective. I'll post some of them when I have finished them.

 

[Sella174]

Canon can do dual processors even in a half sized body (7D), ...

And that is the sore thumb ... Canon already needs to dual-configure these little rascals to produce a decent frame rate with 18MP sensors. So to get a decent frame rate with a 36MP sensor they'll need to quad-configure 'em ... 'cause who's gonna buy a 36MP FF camera that can only do 2 frames per second?

Also, can these DiG!C 5+ or 6 processors even be quad-configured?

... and they can do it with modern cores.

True, but the big question is whether Canon has any "modern cores". The very fact that they have not used it in the 1DX tells me that the answer is a very sorry no, they don't.

 

[100]

Canon can do dual processors even in a half sized body (7D), ...

And that is the sore thumb ... Canon already needs to dual-configure these little rascals to produce a decent frame rate with 18MP sensors. So to get a decent frame rate with a 36MP sensor they'll need to quad-configure 'em ... 'cause who's gonna buy a 36MP FF camera that can only do 2 frames per second?

Also, can these DiG!C 5+ or 6 processors even be quad-configured?

... and they can do it with modern cores.

True, but the big question is whether Canon has any "modern cores". The very fact that they have not used it in the 1DX tells me that the answer is a very sorry no, they don't.

The 1Dx does 12 fps raw or 14 fps jpeg and is 18mp.
So 36mp at 6 or 7 fps is no problem with a 2 year old dual processor.
The new generation processors will probably have no problem with 8 or 10 fps at 36mp so why do you think they need quad processors?

 

[3kramd5]

Canon can do dual processors even in a half sized body (7D), ...

Canon already needs to dual-configure these little rascals to produce a decent frame rate with 18MP sensors.

That was a camera developed for release in 2009. They probably don't need dual processors to do the same in 2014 (the pixel throughput of the 5D3 is nearly 93% of the 7D even though the former only has one processor).

Also, can these DiG!C 5+ or 6 processors even be quad-configured?

Good question. I imagine they could fit four in a full sized body. The PCB might get a little thick, and heat would likely be a major factor, but it's probably doable. I doubt it would be necessary unless they wanted a super high resolution super high frame rate $20,000 market entry.

... and they can do it with modern cores.

True, but the big question is whether Canon has any "modern cores". The very fact that they have not used it in the 1DX tells me that the answer is a very sorry no, they don't.

Wait, what?
The fact that in a camera developed for release two years ago they didn't use a modern core indicates they don't have a modern core now?

 

[Sella174]

The 1Dx does 12 fps raw or 14 fps jpeg and is 18mp.
So 36mp at 6 or 7 fps is no problem with a 2 year old dual processor.

(1) Processing data is not quite linear; (2) stills might be fine, but what about video (the more photosites the sensor has, the more photosites must be processed to downscale the video ... very processor intensive); (3) if it really was this simple, then why haven't we seen a 36MP FF camera from Canon (as they certainly do have the sensor technology for it).

The new generation processors will probably have no problem with 8 or 10 fps at 36mp so why do you think they need quad processors?

This was directed at the current DiG!C 5+ processor and high-MP sensors.

 

[privatebydesign]

PBD was being sarcastic about FPN, or at least the opposite of facetious, whatever that is.

I think my favourite synonym for facetious is jocose.

 

[Sella174]

That was a camera developed for release in 2009. They probably don't need dual processors to do the same in 2014 (the pixel throughput of the 5D3 is nearly 93% of the 7D even though the former only has one processor).

The 1DX also has dual-processors, plus a third to lend a hand ... for 18MP @ 12fps.

The fact that in a camera developed for release two years ago they didn't use a modern core indicates they don't have a modern core now?

The very fact that there are more capable processors than the (old'ish) DiG!C 5+ can only mean that Canon is behind ... either in terms of actual know-how or due to patent constraints. So it will be very, very interesting to see what processor(s) are placed inside the 7D2.

 

[3kramd5]

The fact that in a camera developed for release two years ago they didn't use a modern core indicates they don't have a modern core now?

The very fact that there are more capable processors than the (old'ish) DiG!C 5+ can only mean that Canon is behind ... either in terms of actual know-how or due to patent constraints. So it will be very, very interesting to see what processor(s) are placed inside the 7D2.

To me it merely means camera cores developed >2 years ago are behind current cores, but that's an obvious reality.

It doesn't give me any indication as to what Canon will produce for future models (i.e. cameras developed <2 years ago). If they release a digic 6+ with the same kind of performance gains the 5+ saw, it will be very capable.

 

[Sella174]

If they release a digic 6+ with the same kind of performance gains the 5+ saw, it will be very capable.

True, and then I would have been proven wrong. So that is why I am very interested to see what Canon puts inside the upcoming 7D2 camera.