Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800

[Aglet]

Above and beyond all that though - Look at how many are loving the convenience of the adapter, now think of it - if an M5d (mirrorless 5D) were sitting on the shelves, would that not be a compelling product?

IF it included the operational benefits you describe, then maybe yes. (it didn't work in the case of Pentax' K-01)

From what we see currently, people are using the A7r because it's providing the extra MP and DR you can't get anywhere else but Nikon at the moment and still allowing you to use your EF lenses.
So it's the ONLY option to choose from for a best-of-both-worlds compromise.

 

[AvTvM]

Above and beyond all that though - Look at how many are loving the convenience of the adapter, now think of it - if an M5d (mirrorless 5D) were sitting on the shelves, would that not be a compelling product?

YES, YES YES! That's what I am waiting for.

Everything the 5D IV should be ;-) in a mirrorless camera the size of the Sony A7.
kick-ass FF sensor
kick-ass dual-pixel AF-system
kick-ass EVF
fully electronic global shutter, no noise, no vibrations, no oil splattering,
RT-commander built-in,
WIFI built-in, properly implemented for full-featured wireless remote control apps
EF-adaptor included in box; no hit in AF-performance using it
Priced like 5D 3 now

Plus launch of new native lens-lineup with matching compact AF-only lenses.

 

[Aglet]

Actually, Olympus did most of the market research and it is now all done. Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and FUJIFILM are now applying the results of that research and reaping the benefits. By the time Canon (and Nikon and Pentax) finally get going, all those people who are willing to embrace new technology (in the form of mirrorless) will be already using other systems than theirs. Now, you might argue the adapted lens stance, but remember that a company like Canon does not make the bulk of its "photographic" profit from the sale of 600mm lenses ... they make it from the sales of xxxD/Rebel with a single kit lens jobbies.

Agreed, and with more on that
- Canon's so-so M is something of a failure but has niche uses, it could be improved easily enough and was not bad for a first attempt at something they're not sure how to do.

- Pentax' K-01 is a great imaging machine but seriously handicapped by being so large & heavy, and IMO, tied to the current K-mount. they could have made it compact, with a short register distance, and allowed legacy K-mount lenses to be supported to some extent with a simple adapter instead. Kind of like they did with that oddball Q system; another decent and useful little mirrorless system that might just be a bit TOO small to be taken seriously.

- Nikon's 1-system, seems to be well thought out but so far under-appreciated. The extreme performance of the new 1 V3 might change some minds tho. Fully kitted out with a grip and EVF it's kind of tempting but too costly to be justifiable if you don't really need its unique (speed) features.

The future lies in (a) mirrorless and (b) high-MP mirrorless ... and the future is NOW.

Bang-on!

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

Above and beyond all that though - Look at how many are loving the convenience of the adapter, now think of it - if an M5d (mirrorless 5D) were sitting on the shelves, would that not be a compelling product?

IF it included the operational benefits you describe, then maybe yes. (it didn't work in the case of Pentax' K-01)

From what we see currently, people are using the A7r because it's providing the extra MP and DR you can't get anywhere else but Nikon at the moment and still allowing you to use your EF lenses.
So it's the ONLY option to choose from for a best-of-both-worlds compromise.

That's part of my point --- people like it but only to a point. Case in point is that there is a D800 and it does have an ecosystem of lenses and support but canon folks are using the A7 because it has essentially the same sensor but no lens selling has to go down. I have no issues with using dual systems, and if I had more income I would probably have dual systems but it is a huge investment.

Either way - a good point to really take note of is the big Q - how many canon folks are buying A7's for the DR/MP points vs how many truly want a mirrorless camera?

 

[Aglet]

Re: foolish internet trolls

You confirmed my original comment to the letter. Your in denial and Sony sensor tech is better at the moment.

Still no facts from you showing a Sony sensor with better performance above ISO 800. Since you're clearly unable to back up your statements, there's no point in further discussion.

DOUBLE-SMACKDOWN!

I post a comparison where a difference is well over a full stop (closer to two), you post a set of comparisons where the lines are nearly touching in most cases, generally with <1/3-stop difference (almost certainly within DxOMark's measurement error, although they don't state their error...or even that they made >1 measurement). Yet somehow, you seem quite impressed with yourself despite your manifestly weak data interpretation skills.

I suggest you go take more shots with the lens cap on and push the exposures 4 or more stops in post. Something useful like that will occupy your time and keep you from looking silly on the Internet.

Yup, there's the weasel feces.
Probably took him all night to find a weak angle to strategize to try sounding correct and all we get is semantics and attempts at personal attack, which, if anything, proves my point further.

Neuro, If I really need to explain the meaning of that data to you you're either too dense to get it (I doubt that) or too far in denial (more likely) to comprehend it.

geez, it's trying trying to argue with a borderline
I think RLP's right.
Maybe it's time to convene an intervention for you, maybe something with a 12-stop program?...

 

[Aglet]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

....

So pay attention, YOUR 1DX is the red line, note how IT'S MOSTLY AT THE BOTTOM of every chart.

....

Assuming those measurements are accurate, to what extent to any of those gaps in performance result in a visible difference in a photo? I get the low ISO shadow noise thing (I've seen it myself readily enough on the few occasions it's mattered), but the rest?

probably little in many cases, especially long-lens shots of low DR scenes.

the point is, neuro is trying to sell his brand of kool-ade with a skewed set of information and a poor behavioral attitude which he's always quick to accuse others of.

It's more a SMACKDOWN of neuro than of Canon.

 

[Loswr]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

....

So pay attention, YOUR 1DX is the red line, note how IT'S MOSTLY AT THE BOTTOM of every chart.

....

Assuming those measurements are accurate, to what extent to any of those gaps in performance result in a visible difference in a photo? I get the low ISO shadow noise thing (I've seen it myself readily enough on the few occasions it's mattered), but the rest?

probably little in many cases, especially long-lens shots of low DR scenes.

the point is, neuro is trying to sell his brand of kool-ade with a skewed set of information and a poor behavioral attitude which he's always quick to accuse others of.

It's more a SMACKDOWN of neuro than of Canon.

Right. Because I was discussing differences above ISO 800, where apparently this is not too significant:

But according to you, this is a 'smackdown':

Smackdown. You keep using that word - I do not think it means what you think it means. SHOUTING it doesn't help your arguments, but if helps your ego, that's fine.



Aglet, we know you think low ISO DR is the most important aspect, in some cases the only relevant aspect, of image quality. We know that you don't like Canon sensors becuase you apparently have a constant need to push exposures 4 or more stops in post. As I said, have fun shooting lens caps with your non-Canon sensors.

 

[sdsr]

That's part of my point --- people like it but only to a point. Case in point is that there is a D800 and it does have an ecosystem of lenses and support but canon folks are using the A7 because it has essentially the same sensor but no lens selling has to go down. I have no issues with using dual systems, and if I had more income I would probably have dual systems but it is a huge investment.

Either way - a good point to really take note of is the big Q - how many canon folks are buying A7's for the DR/MP points vs how many truly want a mirrorless camera?

I haven't a clue, but I like mine for both reasons (I was won over by mirrorless with an Olympus OM-D, well before there were any FF mirrorless bodies), and hope that Canon eventually come out with mirrorless options that are better than the M; I wouldn't even mind much if they were more-or-less APS-C size. Camera bodies which are essentially devices for attaching lenses to regardless of which system they were made for (which Sony FE mount bodies almost have to be so far, given the lack of native lenses) appeal to me, and of those I've tried Sony's conjure up the best image quality for my purposes. This does, however, seem almost the definition of a small niche market - the proportion of the camera-buying public interested in doing this is probably even smaller than the market for vintage fountain pens and recordings of classical music (to mention a couple of other tiny minorities I belong to)!

(Incidentally, there seem to be some Nikon D800/e users who think the Sony A7r provides better image quality and have switched or at least supplemented - so they don't just appeal to non-Nikon users.)

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

....

So pay attention, YOUR 1DX is the red line, note how IT'S MOSTLY AT THE BOTTOM of every chart.

....

Assuming those measurements are accurate, to what extent to any of those gaps in performance result in a visible difference in a photo? I get the low ISO shadow noise thing (I've seen it myself readily enough on the few occasions it's mattered), but the rest?

probably little in many cases, especially long-lens shots of low DR scenes.

the point is, neuro is trying to sell his brand of kool-ade with a skewed set of information and a poor behavioral attitude which he's always quick to accuse others of.

It's more a SMACKDOWN of neuro than of Canon.

Right. Because I was discussing differences above ISO 800, where apparently this is not too significant:

But according to you, this is a 'smackdown':

Smackdown. You keep using that word - I do not think it means what you think it means. SHOUTING it doesn't help your arguments, but if helps your ego, that's fine.



Aglet, we know you think low ISO DR is the most important aspect, in some cases the only relevant aspect, of image quality. We know that you don't like Canon sensors becuase you apparently have a constant need to push exposures 4 or more stops in post. As I said, have fun shooting lens caps with your non-Canon sensors.

Again Nikon uses better sensors at every single ISO setting compared to equivalent canon body. IE: 1dx-d4s

But don't continue to deny Nikon is using better sensor tech. They are but real photogs don't care much about those scores anyway because lens selection is much more important. (Like you mentioned of the hand holding the new lighter vr.II super teles from canon.)

 

[Loswr]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Right. Because I was discussing differences above ISO 800, where apparently this is not too significant:

Isn't it wonderful how two different people can look at the same graph and argue that the other is wrong, pointing at their part of the curve to prove themselves right?

Still having trouble reading, I see. Go back and notice that I specified a use case involving high ISO, which is very common for me.

 

[Loswr]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Again Nikon uses better sensors at every single ISO setting compared to equivalent canon body. IE: 1dx-d4s

Again you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Again Nikon uses better sensors at every single ISO setting compared to equivalent canon body. IE: 1dx-d4s

Again you don't know what you're talking about.

Again, Don't forget those aps cameras either and the 5d3-d800 and the Df.

Below - the 1dx is outperformed by the d4s at every iso setting (with the d3s besting it mostly too) and neuro is incorrect to say the 1dx is better at high ISO.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Again Nikon uses better sensors at every single ISO setting compared to equivalent canon body. IE: 1dx-d4s

Again you don't know what you're talking about.

Again, Don't forget those aps cameras either and the 5d3-d800 and the Df.

You two continue to talk past each other.

Side 1 restricts the consideration to the parameters of particular interest, and draws a correct conclusion, e.g. 1DX at high ISO.

Side 2 chooses to address the product lines as a whole, judging generally better performance in Nikon sensors, which also seems to be a true statement, but which is not in conflict with Side 1.

Step 1: agree on the question.

Step 2: we'll never get to step 2.

 

[Loswr]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Step 1: agree on the question.

Step 2: we'll never get to step 2.

We'll never get to step 1, because RLPhoto keeps changing the question. Here's the quick summary:

RLP: Sony sensors are better than Canon, anyone who disagrees is in denial.

Neuro: The best Canon sensor is better than the best Sony sensor at higher than ISO 800

RLP: You confirmed my statement, Sony sensor tech is better. Check out the D4s.

Neuro: Sony doesn't make the sensor in the D4s.

RLP: I don't care if Nikon or Sony make the sensor. Nikon uses sensors in their cameras that are better at every ISO setting when you compare equivalent bodies.

Neuro: The 6D has better DR at high ISO than the D600.

RLP: What about some other cameras?

It's a tactic that some people trolls like to use on the Internet. When shown information/data that contradict their statements, they pretend those data don't exist and then change their statements. It's a tactic that's also frequently employed by petulant children who refuse to admit when they're wrong.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Step 1: agree on the question.

Step 2: we'll never get to step 2.

We'll never get to step 1, because RLPhoto keeps changing the question. Here's the quick summary:

That was kinda my point: if you can't nail down the question, you won't agree on the answer. As a scientist, you're accustomed to being very precise about your questions and assumptions, and you expect readers of your work to do the same. Not so for the general population....

It's a tactic that some people trolls like to use on the Internet. When shown information/data that contradict their statements, they pretend those data don't exist and then change their statements. It's a tactic that's also frequently employed by petulant children who refuse to admit when they're wrong.

While I agree with the above statements, it's also a typical (and sincere) behavior of perhaps the majority of the human race. I mean damn, you should know this: the human mind is not inherently rational. It takes very careful self-development to learn to overcome our inherent sloppiness and biases.

In this particular argument (actually, in most on this site) I think you're technically in the right. But for some of these folks it's not trolling, it's just a more "intuitive" and less "scientific" approach to debate. It's more "system 1" and less "system 2."

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Step 1: agree on the question.

Step 2: we'll never get to step 2.

We'll never get to step 1, because RLPhoto keeps changing the question. Here's the quick summary:

RLP: Sony sensors are better than Canon, anyone who disagrees is in denial.

Neuro: The best Canon sensor is better than the best Sony sensor at higher than ISO 800

RLP: You confirmed my statement, Sony sensor tech is better. Check out the D4s.

Neuro: Sony doesn't make the sensor in the D4s.

RLP: I don't care if Nikon or Sony make the sensor. Nikon uses sensors in their cameras that are better at every ISO setting when you compare equivalent bodies.

Neuro: The 6D has better DR at high ISO than the D600.

RLP: What about some other cameras?

It's a tactic that some people trolls like to use on the Internet. When shown information/data that contradict their statements, they pretend those data don't exist and then change their statements. It's a tactic that's also frequently employed by petulant children who refuse to admit when they're wrong.

You seem like the child here neuro. Sony or Nikon sensor, it was a loose term but instead your egotism can't let you lose an argument so I decided to draw you out and yet you are still wrong.

1. Posting comparisons between incorrect bodies. (1dx-d800?)
2. Then denying the equivalent sensor is better. (D4s>1Dx)
3. Then posting childish images. (Who's the child here?)
4. Cherry picks the one camera in a lineup (6D-d600) and ignores the rest as proof of better sensors.

Quite frankly, I think all these threads have rotted your mind. I find it crazy that such a person as yourself continues to defend what is hopelessly wrong. Canon sensors are behind Nikon sensors.

I don't care if they are but it seems to hurt you very much. That's why I went along with this because again, your in denial.

Since this is all too complicated for you, let me make it real simple.

Who has better sensors canon or nikon?

 

[Loswr]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

While I agree with the above statements, it's also a typical (and sincere) behavior of perhaps the majority of the human race. I mean damn, you should know this: the human mind is not inherently rational. It takes very careful self-development to learn to overcome our inherent sloppiness and biases.

True dat.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

You seem like the child here neuro. Sony or Nikon sensor, it was a loose term but instead your egotism can't let you lose an argument so I decided to draw you out and yet you are still wrong.

Who has better sensors canon or nikon?

Again, you two simply don't agree on the question!

Neuro is arguing specifically about Nikon's best sensor against Canon's best sensor at ISO's above 800, and nothing more. If you limit the question to this, his position is supported by the data.

RLP is arguing across the product lines, regarding which brand has the broadly superior sensor performance. If you make the question as broad as that, then RLP's position is supported by the data.

Each of you is pretending that the other person is asking the wrong question, bu this is wrong: each of you is simply asking the question that's of personal interest to you.

Both of you take a timeout and learn to play nice!

 

[Sporgon]

Is it around now that the Great Crested Grebe will make an appearance ?

 

[Orangutan]

Is it around now that the Great Crested Grebe will make an appearance ?

That, or a giant cartoon foot from a Renaissance painting.