Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts

[dickgrafixstop]

The famous industrial designer Charles Eames had a motto - "Innovate as a last resort". I'm
delighted to see that this may well have become the mantra of the Canon design team.

 

[candc]

is an aps-c sensor really cheaper to produce? You would think the 70d sensor with its smaller photo sites and dual pixel tech would be more expensive than the 6d sensor which is about the same mp count?

Pixel size doesn't matter significantly (as long as the density is achievable with the process scale being used (500 nm, 180 nm, etc.). Area matters - you get a lot more APS-C sensors than FF from a wafer; the larger sensor also means a higher QC failure rate, raising the cost further.

I suppose that's true, I just don't think that it is the huge cost difference its made out to be and if its the sensors area and not pixel count is what makes it expensive then they should hurry up with the high mp ff sensor. I think its as much about marketing as anything. If they were able to make a high mp camera with super dr and low noise it would not make business sense to release it, why make the last upgrade you really need? Makes more sense to sell you incremental upgrades over time. Maybe I am just being cynical but I think there is some degree of truth in that.

 

[candc]

Here's another way to look at it,

You can buy an sl1 with a kit lens for $500, what do you suppose it costs canon to produce the sensor in that camera, $50-$100? You could put 2 of those side by side vertically and get a 36mp ff sensor

 

[ME]

Why all the speculation? Just bring out the crystal ball. Oops, just dropped and broke mine. Hack Canon? Dont know how. Besides,it's against the law. In the USA at least.... Ok, in that case Canon will buy Nikon and possibly other companies and become a monopoly. Then they will produce the 7D7, combining the best features of the 70d and the current 7d, enhancing fps and video capabilities, slightly improved sensor, and adding smartphone capabilities to attract that market. Sort of an all-in-one to please everyone, except fullframers & mirrorless users. Sorry Nikon users, nothing for you. The cost? Who knows, since they will be a monopoly. ???

 

[candc]

Why all the speculation? Just bring out the crystal ball. Oops, just dropped and broke mine. Hack Canon? Dont know how. Besides,it's against the law. In the USA at least.... Ok, in that case Canon will buy Nikon and possibly other companies and become a monopoly. Then they will produce the 7D7, combining the best features of the 70d and the current 7d, enhancing fps and video capabilities, slightly improved sensor, and adding smartphone capabilities to attract that market. Sort of an all-in-one to please everyone, except fullframers & mirrorless users. Sorry Nikon users, nothing for you. The cost? Who knows, since they will be a monopoly. ???

7d7, I like the sound of it. Instead of making smart phones that take better pictures, how about a DSLR with a phone built in! Might be a bit awkward to hold up to your ear, better include a Bluetooth headset.

 

[AprilForever]

I have discussed many times on this forum the superior nature of APS-C.

APS-C is superior in that the sensor is cheaper to produce, meaning cheaper bodies, or additional features added in lieu of a better sensor. The economic argument can be extended to cheaper/smaller/lighter wide and normal lenses. If you think APS-C is superior in other ways, you're deluding yourself.

Canon, listen, or let the K3 eat your ever dwindling customer base...

...and this statement confirms that you're deluding yourself. In a big way.

No, I'm not... If I were to buy new, I would go Pentax. They get crop. Canon is trying to force people towards FF, it seems...

 

[Loswr]

Canon, listen, or let the K3 eat your ever dwindling customer base...

...and this statement confirms that you're deluding yourself. In a big way.

No, I'm not... If I were to buy new, I would go Pentax. They get crop. Canon is trying to force people towards FF, it seems...
[/quote]

Ok, fair enough. Dwindling by n=1. I'm sure that has Canon terrified.

Why do people have such trouble understanding that their individual preferences don't necessarily reflect the entire market. :

 

[jrista]

I have discussed many times on this forum the superior nature of APS-C.

APS-C is superior in that the sensor is cheaper to produce, meaning cheaper bodies, or additional features added in lieu of a better sensor. The economic argument can be extended to cheaper/smaller/lighter wide and normal lenses. If you think APS-C is superior in other ways, you're deluding yourself.

Canon, listen, or let the K3 eat your ever dwindling customer base...

...and this statement confirms that you're deluding yourself. In a big way.

No, I'm not... If I were to buy new, I would go Pentax. They get crop. Canon is trying to force people towards FF, it seems...

Correction:

The Canon speculators and unofficial self-proclaimed "voice" of Canon, are assuming that Canon is going to try to force people towards FF, based on the unverified opinion of one reporter on one review site who took the words of a Canon employee out of context.

 

[AvTvM]

Preference for a well-specced 7D Mk. II with APS-C sensor is certainly not only an "individual preference" but definitely on the wishlist of quite a few people in this forum and many more outside of it.

BUT:
Both Canon (and Nikon) have delayed introduction of successors for their hi-end APS-C DSLRs for a very long time (Canon 4+ years, Nikon 3+ years)
AND
meanwhile FF-DSLRs (6D, D6100/610), mirrorless FF cameras (Sony A7/R) are now available in the same price-bracket that a 7D II (or Nikon D400) would likely be launched into (USD/€ 1500-2000+) the target audience for a 7D has shrunk considerably. Especially "general use" enthusiasts and semi-pros on a budget are not waiting for the 7D II as much as they have waited for the 7D (when FF bodies were still considerably more expensive). By now, many Nikon D300/s users have moved on to D800 and (less so) to D600/610. Many Canon 7D users who never or only rarely experience focal length limited situations have moved on to 6D or 5D III. Or are seriously considering smaller/lighter (FF) mirrorless options (e.g. myself ... and no, I am not the only one with such an individual preference).

From my observation, target group for 7D II by now are mainly "action + reach-oriented "semi-pro/enthusiasts" and possibly some semi/pros who don't want to/cannot afford two 1D X bodies. However, this group is still large enough to warrant a 7D II, especially as long as Canon brings no higher MP / higher fps FF DSLR [5D IV] to market.

That's why I believe Canon will bring a 7D II rather soon in 2014 and a 5D IV only later (2015).

In addition to action-oriented/reach-limited users they will certainly also try to attract some video shooters on a budget lower than 5D III. Plus some "generalists / enthusiasts" who are happy with an (improved) APS-C sensor and willing to pay for a better body than 70D ... AND don't want to spend large sums to replace their existing EF-S lenses in order to go FF. Especially 10-22, 17-55, 15-85, 18-135 STM, 60 Macro ... these are very decent to really good lenses and to replayce them with equally good or better EF (L) glass ain't cheap. 100 L Macro, 24-105, 16-35 II or 24-70 II ... $$$-$$$$

 

[Loswr]

Preference for a well-specced 7D Mk. II with APS-C sensor is certainly not only an "individual preference" but definitely on the wishlist of quite a few people in this forum and many more outside of it.

No doubt. But if Canon doesn't give them one, are they all going to buy a Pentax K3? :

 

[unfocused]

BUT:
Both Canon (and Nikon) have delayed introduction of successors for their hi-end APS-C DSLRs for a very long time (Canon 4+ years, Nikon 3+ years)

A minor point, but the Nikon D300s was released in July, 2009, so it is actually older than the 7D.

Many Canon 7D users who never or only rarely experience focal length limited situations have moved on to 6D or 5D III...From my observation, target group for 7D II by now are mainly "action + reach-oriented "semi-pro/enthusiasts" and possibly some semi/pros who don't want to/cannot afford two 1D X bodies. However, this group is still large enough to warrant a 7D II, especially as long as Canon brings no higher MP / higher fps FF DSLR [5D IV] to market.

I generally agree. I am one of those who "moved on" to a 5DIII. However, I'm still interested in a 7DII, even if the demand is not quite as "pent up" as it used to be. Canon will still be able to sell me one if it has autofocus similar to the 5DIII, a frame rate that exceeds the 5DIII, and reasonable improvements in sensor performance especially at higher ISOs. I don't expect it to exceed the 5DIII but somewhere between the 7D and 5DIII would be nice. Bonus features would be: f8 autofocus, improved weather sealing and dual card slots.

The advantage that the 7D will always have will be price per features. Full frame will always be more expensive so the trade off will continue to be fewer features on the entry level 6D. I know there is much debate over the perceived advantage of the 1.6 magnification factor and I'm not anxious to re-start that whole debate. Suffice it to say that I see enough advantages under specific conditions that I'm willing to invest in the 7DII.

That's why I believe Canon will bring a 7D II rather soon in 2014 and a 5D IV only later (2015). ..

Yes. While I'm not sure whether it will "rather soon" in 2014, I think it will be in 2014 and I don't expect to see a 5DIV until at least 2015 and maybe 2016. There's just nothing major that needs to be improved on the 5DIII.

 

[Loswr]

There's just nothing major that needs to be improved on the 5DIII.

My God, man, the DR...how in the name of all that's holy could you have forgotten about the abysmally horrible DR of the 5DIII?????????

 

[AvTvM]

There's just nothing major that needs to be improved on the 5DIII.

My God, man, the DR...how in the name of all that's holy could you have forgotten about the abysmally horrible DR of the 5DIII?????????

now that you mention it! ;D

But ... as we know ... DR is just for DRones. Real men expose correctly. Those funny image sensors don't really matter in digital cameras anyways. They're nothing but center-markers in those big fat DSLRs. Put in there so it's not only smoke and mirrors flapping around in all that empty space. It really is the camera surrounding that sensor that counts, stupid! 2 stops less DR than D800 at low ISO? Pah, utterly useless! Nobody uses those boring low ISO settings, ever! Real men will boldly shoot at ISO 3200 and higher, always! That will unlock the 5D III's full potential ... a whopping 0.1 stops more DR than D800. Now that's what counts! ;D

 

[RiceCanon]

I would be extremely disappointed if Canon doesn't release a new and improved version of the 7D. I have a 7D mainly for birding and wildlife and now also own a 6D for landscape. I was really hoping for a 7D Mark II with improved high ISO performance, autofocus, and frame rate. Come on Canon, don't let us down!

 

[AprilForever]

Preference for a well-specced 7D Mk. II with APS-C sensor is certainly not only an "individual preference" but definitely on the wishlist of quite a few people in this forum and many more outside of it.

No doubt. But if Canon doesn't give them one, are they all going to buy a Pentax K3? :

No, but thats's not the point. There are plenty of other places they will go too, so I am sure I am not delusional. I speak the same many people speak and feel. MANY do not want video!!! Most stills people I know have never even tried the video features beyond mere expirementation.

 

[garyknrd]

I have a Sigma 500mm F/4.5 lens and a Sigma 300mm F/2.8 prime in Pentax mount.
Also have the Canon 500mm lens and Canon 300 mm F/2.8 prime.

I am serious thinking about having the Sigma gear shipped to me and picking up a K-3. I presently only shoot with Canon since the K-5.

As I get older I am looking for a light weight and small rig for birding. Also I am a big crop sensor fan. DXo shows the ISO rating at 1250 for the K-3 and 1350 for the Canon IV. And I find that my limit on the IV for general birding. But the 7D is way outdated IMO.

If the K-3 has the AF? The reason I ditched Pentax originally. I will start using it again. The size of the primes suit me. Easier for me to hand hold and easy to handle.

Before I would seriously considering using it. I will have to shoot with it for at least 6 months. It takes me that long to really get the hang of a lens camera combo. Then if good I would start buying the new Sigma Art lenses.

Really what I think is going to happen is. Sigma is going to update there big lenses and make them sharper with IS. We are already seeing the smaller lenses really coming of age.

But honestly Pentax is not a threat to Canon in any way what so ever. And IMO never will be. As a birder, I am probably the least important person Canon thinks about for there Camera gear. If I drift away it would be like loosing a drop of water in Lake Michigan.. LOL

Nice to have a choice though. I'm looking forward to playing with it.

 

[Hillsilly]

If you set your mind back a few years, at the "affordable" end, the original 7d had a noticeable AF capability and speed advantage over the 5Dii and 50D. It had a clearly defined position in the Canon hierarchy.

But, now, apart from an increase in fps, I'm not sure what a 7Dii could offer over a 5Diii, whereas the 5Diii would offer better IQ (something we all value highly). At the other end, the 70D at $950 looks very compelling. Canon would need to have something special to demand a significant premium. So I think the problem is pricing. There is clearly a lot of interest in a 7Dii type camera. But can Canon put something together that can justify a high price tag and motivate buyers? I hope so.

 

[MrPeevee]

There are news about this topic:

http://www.canonwatch.com/another-tidbit-eos-7d-mark-ii-rumor-aps-c-flagship-set-come/

It appears there will be a new high-end APS-C DSLR but its name will not be 7D Mark II :

 

[Zlyden]

My two rupees:

1) If Canon did plan to release 7D II any time soon, it would release it before 70D. Playing the same game it did with Nikon on FF bodies last year: first release expensive camera, wait 6 month for current owners to upgrade, than release cheaper camera that has similar specs as old model + some new stuff (like wi-fi).

2) Current Canon's APS-C lineup has enough segmentation: 100D, 700D, 70D. It makes more sense to limit it to these 3 (+ old models) with price points below FF cameras ($1500). And 60D obviously needed update (because it looked very strange on its initial release: with features like MFA removed most of reviewers called 'oversized rebel' or similar).

What Canon do need to release soon is another FF camera that would sit between current 6D and 5D prices (let's say at MSRP $2000-2500) -- to lure more users into FF world and to sell them more EF lenses (while they can). If Canon will be forced to release mirrorless FF with new lens mount (and they will have to do it, if Nikon will do it) that will create another 'bastard' member in EOS family (like EOS M), and another 'dead end' in the roadmap for EF lenses (like EF-M).

(After that they can re-release new and mighty 7D II with price point of $5000 and weight of 10 pounds for dedicated bird and sport shooters.)

 

[AprilForever]

There are news about this topic:

http://www.canonwatch.com/another-tidbit-eos-7d-mark-ii-rumor-aps-c-flagship-set-come/

It appears there will be a new high-end APS-C DSLR but its name will not be 7D Mark II :

Oddly, I feel this is true. Remember the rumors about the 1dx? About there being no 1d4s? This has the same feel. I don't care too badly what the new name is, as long as they don't meddle with what the 7D is...