Upgrade Path Advice...

[Datfish]

I'm attaching a couple of shots from a race a few weeks back to give you a general idea of the shooting conditions...

Just following on ...in all truth either one of the 6d or 7d2 would give you a significant lift in performance across the board relative to the 40D ( and yes even the 70D but I have already given my reasons for not suggesting it).

In looking at you pics and the challenging light ( shadow etc) one "method" which might get some really cool shots would be using HSS with an Off camera flash. Basically overpowering the ambient light and stopping motion ( wheels and feet) with a very short but low powered pop of the flash to isolate and "call out" a backlit subject, to expose the subject properly but also, because of the short shutter speed, having the background correctly exposed or slightly "underexposed". It also gives the ability to shoot (in Manual) with a wider aperture than would be called for by the ambient metering, and therefore narrow the DOF.

I'm playing with this at the moment so I do not profess to be any expert, but as I said, to me it looks like some of the light conditions you shoot in would benefit from HSS Flash technique.

What you need is an HSS capable flash (eg 580 exii) and the highest shutter speed your camera can muster. I note the 7d mkii has max shutter speed of 1/8000 and the 6d 1/4000. Just another advantage of the 7d Mkii. The 7D also has an inbuilt flash that can optically trigger the off camera HSS capable flash without the need of another trigger system (limited to line of sight and range as well)

Again on flash capability the MAX flash sync speed of 7d2 is 1/250th. ( without using HSS) whereas the 6d is only 1/180th which may also be an advantage to you.

Just some more things to think about!

PS: Jessie is a cool looking Dog......interesting left side teeth ;D

 

[Datfish]

Both the 7D Mark II and the 6D have GPS. Wi-Fi is the feature that is exclusive to the 6D (and the 70D).

Correct and Thank You ....my mistake

 

[Tabor Warren Photography]

I hate to be repetitive but am truly trying to give the best advice I can based on the fact that I have owned/shot with the 60D, 7D, 5Dii, and now have 3 5Diii's. I would get a 5Diii as well as consider selling the 50 1.4.

Keeping budget in mind, one of the 5Diii's I bought was $2,450 from one of the gray market sellers on eBay. If you watch for deals, they will come. I sold my 50 1.4 for $300 on Craigslist about a year ago. I only bought it for $320 via BH refurbished.

Since it looks as though you take excellent care of your equipment as well, I image you will have whatever camera you choose for years to come. Even if you only keep the body for 5 years and spend $2,500 instead of $2,000, you are looking at $100/year or less than 30 cents a day to get the camera that (I believe) you would be the happiest with.

If you decide the 5Diii is not the best option, I would consider the 7Dii as the best alternative for what you are looking for.

I hope this helps!

Cheers,
-Tabor

 

[rpt]

I hate to be repetitive but am truly trying to give the best advice I can based on the fact that I have owned/shot with the 60D, 7D, 5Dii, and now have 3 5Diii's. I would get a 5Diii as well as consider selling the 50 1.4.

Keeping budget in mind, one of the 5Diii's I bought was $2,450 from one of the gray market sellers on eBay. If you watch for deals, they will come. I sold my 50 1.4 for $300 on Craigslist about a year ago. I only bought it for $320 via BH refurbished.

Since it looks as though you take excellent care of your equipment as well, I image you will have whatever camera you choose for years to come. Even if you only keep the body for 5 years and spend $2,500 instead of $2,000, you are looking at $100/year or less than 30 cents a day to get the camera that (I believe) you would be the happiest with.

If you decide the 5Diii is not the best option, I would consider the 7Dii as the best alternative for what you are looking for.

I hope this helps!

Cheers,
-Tabor

Yup! What he said.

Get the 5D3 and install Magic Lantern on the SD card. That way you are set for stills, video and other stuff that canon did not enable/provide. You will not regret it.

Btw, I got it with the 24-105 kit lens. It is a great walk about lens.

Enjoy!

 

[meneses24]

I have the Kenko Teleplus 300 1.4x DGX. It does "work", you can AF at f/8 on the 7D, however it's pretty much a hunt-fest. Getting a lock is an exceptional rarity unless you have exceptional light. Even when you manage to find that exceptional light (which is often not the most flattering light), the IQ of the Kenko with the IQ of the old 100-400 makes for a rather mushy end result.

Another problem with the Kenko is it mucks with metering. If you are not shooting full manual, you have to account for about a 1-stop over-exposure. The TC mis-reports the aperture of the lens, which is why it can work for "f/8 AF" on a camera like the 7D. The body requires accurate aperture reporting to meter properly...so if your not paying attention, you can easily overexpose when using the Kenko. Even with manual, if you rely on the exposure meter to set your exposures, you have to account for that extra stop. That sometimes results in the exposure indicator getting pegged, so you don't really know what the exposure is.

Just my 2c worth again BUT the Canon mkiii Extenders ( 1.4iii and 2xiii) work fine so if the extender route is an option get the Canon variety.
I really don't see the point of compromising there , when you have $3000-$5000 ( or more) in Canon bodies and L glass, don't mess it up with a cheap 3rd Party extender, for the sake of saving a couple of hundred .

I have used my 7D almost exclusively at times with a 1.4xiii and a 70-200 IS USM ii shooting sports and the drop in IQ is marginal. Using the 2x is more noticeable, but still very usable, and a truck load cheaper than the alternative of longer L glass.

Have also used same extenders on an EF 300 F/4 L IS USM with the same comments on relative performance.
That said a two stop loss of max aperture is a challenge when you're starting at F4 and mounting to a 7D.....I have since sold the 300

Note for Meneses24.....I failed to realise that your EF 70-300L won't accommodate the Canon 1.4X iii...Bummer!! :'(!

Yeah indeed! That is a disadvantage of this lens

 

[meneses24]

Note for Meneses24.....I failed to realise that your EF 70-300L won't accommodate the Canon 1.4X iii...Bummer!! :'(!

It will, but only in 260-300mm range. Nothing official, but it works. Check Bryan's TDP site...

Wow, this is new for me! Nice to know this. Thanks Khalai.

It seems that I might take the upgrade to the 5D3, I guess in between my 40D and the 7D2 or 70D I will see an improvement, but not a noticeable upgrade. I´ll wait for one more month for this (black friday)

 

[privatebydesign]

It is official, AFMA is supported with the 70-300 and 1.4TC as a separate setting from the naked 70-300 just like other supported lenses.

 

[Datfish]

It seems that I might take the upgrade to the 5D3, I guess in between my 40D and the 7D2 or 70D I will see an improvement, but not a noticeable upgrade. I´ll wait for one more month for this (black friday)

I said earlier to pjn069 that the 5D3 would cover his requirements best BUT subject to his budget. If $2500-$3000 fits the budget you would be silly to do anything else. Choosing the 5D3 would definitely give the " MOST NOTICEABLE" Canon upgrade over the 40D (except for the 1DX ;D), unless you were hard core sports/action then its the 7d2 without Question!!

The trouble is , as for most decisions for us "mere amateurs", its not that clear cut when you bring in a $2k ceiling

So with all that said, I think you would still have a " VERY Noticeable Upgrade" with either the 6D,7D2 or 70D. Remember the 40D was released August 2007....that's a few generations of sensor/AF technology ago!

On Balance and taking into account the $2k ceiling.....I still think the best option is the 7dMkii for pjn069's situation! What you get is the latest technology from Canon, including its BEST Crop Sensor, Superior AF system, weather sealing, bullet proof build, same menu system and ergonomics as the 5D3 , faster max shutter speed and Flash Sync etc over the 6D.

Given pjn069's description of the shooting environments he explores, I just think its the best all round option notwithstanding in some of those environments the 6D might be a better "point" solution. In fact even if he went the 5d3 route , the 7d2 would be a far superior "point" solution for hard core Sports/Action/Wildlife.

Unfortunately its all about balancing the compromises optimally for your USAGE and BUDGET! ;D

GO FOR IT and ENJOY!

 

[meneses24]

It seems that I might take the upgrade to the 5D3, I guess in between my 40D and the 7D2 or 70D I will see an improvement, but not a noticeable upgrade. I´ll wait for one more month for this (black friday)

I said earlier to pjn069 that the 5D3 would cover his requirements best BUT subject to his budget. If $2500-$3000 fits the budget you would be silly to do anything else. Choosing the 5D3 would definitely give the " MOST NOTICEABLE" Canon upgrade over the 40D (except for the 1DX ;D), unless you were hard core sports/action then its the 7d2 without Question!!

The trouble is , as for most decisions for us "mere amateurs", its not that clear cut when you bring in a $2k ceiling

So with all that said, I think you would still have a " VERY Noticeable Upgrade" with either the 6D,7D2 or 70D. Remember the 40D was released August 2007....that's a few generations of sensor/AF technology ago!

On Balance and taking into account the $2k ceiling.....I still think the best option is the 7dMkii for pjn069's situation! What you get is the latest technology from Canon, including its BEST Crop Sensor, Superior AF system, weather sealing, bullet proof build, same menu system and ergonomics as the 5D3 , faster max shutter speed and Flash Sync etc over the 6D.

Given pjn069's description of the shooting environments he explores, I just think its the best all round option notwithstanding in some of those environments the 6D might be a better "point" solution. In fact even if he went the 5d3 route , the 7d2 would be a far superior "point" solution for hard core Sports/Action/Wildlife.

Unfortunately its all about balancing the compromises optimally for your USAGE and BUDGET! ;D

GO FOR IT and ENJOY!

Definitely agree with you. Indeed my 40D is outdated, and lacks of many of the features of the newer ones, it´s terrifying to see all that noise even at ISO200. Almost all of those from the 60D have many advantages against the 40D.

What I shoot the most are sports (cars) and aviation photography, reason I don´t really need those 10fps, but I think in this case the 6D might get slow in some situations (burst rate and AF performance). I do want to do the FF upgrade, but I´m afraid that my 70-300 will behave like a 55-200 (sort of).

I believe the 5d3 will help me for about the same time my 40D has been standstill, at least 5 years, in the meantime acquire some prime lenses, and perhaps later on a second body

 

[pjn0629]

I'm attaching a couple of shots from a race a few weeks back to give you a general idea of the shooting conditions...

Just following on ...in all truth either one of the 6d or 7d2 would give you a significant lift in performance across the board relative to the 40D ( and yes even the 70D but I have already given my reasons for not suggesting it).

In looking at you pics and the challenging light ( shadow etc) one "method" which might get some really cool shots would be using HSS with an Off camera flash. Basically overpowering the ambient light and stopping motion ( wheels and feet) with a very short but low powered pop of the flash to isolate and "call out" a backlit subject, to expose the subject properly but also, because of the short shutter speed, having the background correctly exposed or slightly "underexposed". It also gives the ability to shoot (in Manual) with a wider aperture than would be called for by the ambient metering, and therefore narrow the DOF.

I'm playing with this at the moment so I do not profess to be any expert, but as I said, to me it looks like some of the light conditions you shoot in would benefit from HSS Flash technique.

What you need is an HSS capable flash (eg 580 exii) and the highest shutter speed your camera can muster. I note the 7d mkii has max shutter speed of 1/8000 and the 6d 1/4000. Just another advantage of the 7d Mkii. The 7D also has an inbuilt flash that can optically trigger the off camera HSS capable flash without the need of another trigger system (limited to line of sight and range as well)

Again on flash capability the MAX flash sync speed of 7d2 is 1/250th. ( without using HSS) whereas the 6d is only 1/180th which may also be an advantage to you.

Just some more things to think about!

PS: Jessie is a cool looking Dog......interesting left side teeth ;D

Jessie is my Girlfriend's coach's dog, and a total ball of energy, especially when she comes along to run while we ride cx bikes on mountain bike trails!

I did try using my built in flash for fill, and actually got some cool results with it, but I really hate when people use flash while I'm racing, so I'm really reluctant to use it myself. It's super distracting, and can really mess with you while you're trying to carefully pick a line in the mud.

I'm also thinking maybe I should just get a 5D mark 1 to tide me over until the 6D gets a refresh. I feel like what I want is the added IQ of a full frame more than anything else.

Despite the reviews that are all glowing, I'm dubious as to the ability of the 7Dii to match the image quality of full frame... BUT it'll be WAY better than my 40D, and I've been able to get some decent shots with my 40D over the years.

 

[Sportsgal501]

6D
7D
5D Mark III (if money is not an issue).
I will be upgrading my 50D to the 7D Mark II because I also feel I have outgrown this model.

 

[aussielearner]

Have you considered purchasing a used 5DIII. That would surely fit into your budget.

 

[RickWagoner]

Why not the 70D?....just my opinion but I think it will be upgraded long before we see a 7d mkiii AND from the specs and early reports it looks an awesome crop camera....... the BEST of canons stable. The 70D is great too, but not in same class...The 7D2will do anything the 70D can plus loads more.................. but that is just me and you need to consider your budget! 8)

7D2 can not do touch screen, can not do wifi, can not adjust screen at all, can not lose weight, can not shrink, and last but not least can not be bought for $800..since you said the 7D2 can do anything the 70D can.

The 70D is canons perfect middle, spend lot more and you get less amount of features for the added cost, spend little less and miss more features. The 70D is a extremely hard to beat at $800 and unless you're seriously Niche with what you need out of your body the extra $1,000 may not be worth it. Of course if you need a crop body, incredible low light, amazingly crazy auto focus, and a few higher fps and a bit larger buffer then the $1800 7D2 is perfect...but like every camera it is not perfect for everyone..unless you're an amateur birder, then it may truly perfect..like the 400mm 5.6 is the perfect amateur birding lens!

 

[Hjalmarg1]

HI,
6D offers the best IQ from all 3 you mention (6D, 5D3 & 7D2) but AF will not match action shooting requirements. I won 5D3 and it's a good all-around camera for portrait, sports, wedding, family, etc. because has a very effective and responsive AF system. In addition, with FF you'll get real wide angle with your current FF lenses.
7D2 looks very promissing in all terms and seems to be the best budget sport camera in the market but, it will also be a good all-around camera due to the recent improvements in AF and ISO performance.

So, right now I have a 40D, I really have no complaints about the performance of the autofocus or burst fire rate, and the image quality is fine when there is enough light. I do find the colors look a little flat straight out of the camera, and the dynamic range is lacking compared to what I've seen out of the newer stuff out there. Been shooting with it for 7 years, and this is the first time I've felt like my technology is holding me back. I've got some decent glass..(27-70 and 70-200 2.8 L zooms and a 50 1.4 prime) I mostly shoot vacation stuff, family, some portraits, some street photography, and lately some bicycle racing. I mostly shoot cyclocross, because that's when I'm in the environment with enough time to shoot (ie not racing myself the whole time i'm at the race) in CX the speeds are pretty low even the pros are in the low 20mph range, and the course is fairly predictable (riding between taped of segments). Having found no shortcomings in the AF of my 40d, I've been leaning towards a 6D, so I can get a significant bump in image quality, and gain some modern functionality (GPS tagging would be nice because the races are all over the place). But there's the nagging "sports" qualifier there, and the 7Dii has framerateand autofocus in spades, but I'm not too sure that it'd be enough of a boost to image quality to justify the purchase.

tl;dr
have a 40d, shoot predictable sports, already have nice glass
want a 6D for best image quality/$
7Dii is best sports shooter in my budget
which one to buy?

 

[pjn0629]

Have you considered purchasing a used 5DIII. That would surely fit into your budget.

I hadn't really looked into it, but It really seems like that might be the way to go. Not much on CL here in NYC, but maybe I should try a camera store? idk Got any suggestions?

 

[Nethawk]

I have the Kenko Teleplus 300 1.4x DGX. It does "work", you can AF at f/8 on the 7D, however it's pretty much a hunt-fest. Getting a lock is an exceptional rarity unless you have exceptional light. Even when you manage to find that exceptional light (which is often not the most flattering light), the IQ of the Kenko with the IQ of the old 100-400 makes for a rather mushy end result.

Another problem with the Kenko is it mucks with metering. If you are not shooting full manual, you have to account for about a 1-stop over-exposure. The TC mis-reports the aperture of the lens, which is why it can work for "f/8 AF" on a camera like the 7D. The body requires accurate aperture reporting to meter properly...so if your not paying attention, you can easily overexpose when using the Kenko. Even with manual, if you rely on the exposure meter to set your exposures, you have to account for that extra stop. That sometimes results in the exposure indicator getting pegged, so you don't really know what the exposure is.

Just my 2c worth again BUT the Canon mkiii Extenders ( 1.4iii and 2xiii) work fine so if the extender route is an option get the Canon variety.
I really don't see the point of compromising there , when you have $3000-$5000 ( or more) in Canon bodies and L glass, don't mess it up with a cheap 3rd Party extender, for the sake of saving a couple of hundred .

I have used my 7D almost exclusively at times with a 1.4xiii and a 70-200 IS USM ii shooting sports and the drop in IQ is marginal. Using the 2x is more noticeable, but still very usable, and a truck load cheaper than the alternative of longer L glass.

Have also used same extenders on an EF 300 F/4 L IS USM with the same comments on relative performance.
That said a two stop loss of max aperture is a challenge when you're starting at F4 and mounting to a 7D.....I have since sold the 300

Note for Meneses24.....I failed to realise that your EF 70-300L won't accommodate the Canon 1.4X iii...Bummer!! :'(!

Yeah indeed! That is a disadvantage of this lens

I'd say it's a disadvantage with both lens and Canon's teleconverter. I still shake my head that we must deal with compatibility issues even when buying L lenses.

I tried the Kenko with similar frustrations as above and returned it. I may give it another shot with the 7D2, ya never know.

 

[aussielearner]

Have you considered purchasing a used 5DIII. That would surely fit into your budget.

I hadn't really looked into it, but It really seems like that might be the way to go. Not much on CL here in NYC, but maybe I should try a camera store? idk Got any suggestions?

I live in Australia, so no local suggestions. Looking at eBay.com there are heaps of sold listings for 5DIIIs that have sold in the US$1800-$2200 region.
You can get grey market ones for US$2500.

 

[timmy_650]

I have a 6D and a 40D. I would suggest to get a 6D. Yes the 5D Mark III is a better camera but I think the 6D will fill your needs. I shoot ultimate Frisbee with it and it works fine. I miss some but shots but I get plenty of keeps.

 

[shawnc]

I shoot a lot of cyclocross with my 6D (gross understatement actually). I've gotten great results with it. Possibly because cross is so up-close, and as you said the speeds are pretty low so the 6D has no trouble keeping up with the action. Possibly though, it's just better than all the naysayers want to admit. Typically I use a 24-70 2.8 (Cannon mkii now, Tamron for about 18 months). In addition a friend shoots with one as well, usually with a 70-200 2.8, she gets fantastic in-the-action photos. I do see limitations, particularly frame rate, and the 7Dii looks very appealing, especially if it gives better IQ than the previous generation of APS-C sensors. I own a 60D and SL1. Nice cameras, but I see the difference between them and my 6D IQ wise. If I could've afforded a 5diii I would've bought it, but I'm happy with the 6D.

 

[Khalai]

I have the Kenko Teleplus 300 1.4x DGX. It does "work", you can AF at f/8 on the 7D, however it's pretty much a hunt-fest. Getting a lock is an exceptional rarity unless you have exceptional light. Even when you manage to find that exceptional light (which is often not the most flattering light), the IQ of the Kenko with the IQ of the old 100-400 makes for a rather mushy end result.

Another problem with the Kenko is it mucks with metering. If you are not shooting full manual, you have to account for about a 1-stop over-exposure. The TC mis-reports the aperture of the lens, which is why it can work for "f/8 AF" on a camera like the 7D. The body requires accurate aperture reporting to meter properly...so if your not paying attention, you can easily overexpose when using the Kenko. Even with manual, if you rely on the exposure meter to set your exposures, you have to account for that extra stop. That sometimes results in the exposure indicator getting pegged, so you don't really know what the exposure is.

Just my 2c worth again BUT the Canon mkiii Extenders ( 1.4iii and 2xiii) work fine so if the extender route is an option get the Canon variety.
I really don't see the point of compromising there , when you have $3000-$5000 ( or more) in Canon bodies and L glass, don't mess it up with a cheap 3rd Party extender, for the sake of saving a couple of hundred .

I have used my 7D almost exclusively at times with a 1.4xiii and a 70-200 IS USM ii shooting sports and the drop in IQ is marginal. Using the 2x is more noticeable, but still very usable, and a truck load cheaper than the alternative of longer L glass.

Have also used same extenders on an EF 300 F/4 L IS USM with the same comments on relative performance.
That said a two stop loss of max aperture is a challenge when you're starting at F4 and mounting to a 7D.....I have since sold the 300

Note for Meneses24.....I failed to realise that your EF 70-300L won't accommodate the Canon 1.4X iii...Bummer!! :'(!

Yeah indeed! That is a disadvantage of this lens

I'd say it's a disadvantage with both lens and Canon's teleconverter. I still shake my head that we must deal with compatibility issues even when buying L lenses.

I tried the Kenko with similar frustrations as above and returned it. I may give it another shot with the 7D2, ya never know.

There is a workaround, look on TDP site:

The Canon 70-300 L is officially NOT compatible with Canon extenders. This is the only Canon L zoom lens with a widest focal length of 70mm or longer that is not compatible with Canon extenders (as of review time). I've tried mounting Canon extenders to the 70-300 L - and they do not fit. The rear 70-300 L lens element physically hits the front element of the extender.

Then, in a major firmware update announcement for the Canon EOS 1D X, Canon included the 70-300 L and Canon EF 1.4x III Extender combo on a compatibility list.

Intrigued, I did more experimenting. What I learned is that the 70-300 L's rear element retracts into the lens far enough that, at about 250mm, there is enough clearance for Canon extenders to mount.

The available with-1.4x focal length range is about 350-420mm and 500-600mm with the 2x installed. Zooming out wider than the 250mm-or-so zoom ring mark results in a physical bump inside the lens. I'm guessing that it is the rubber around the edge of the extender element contacts the rear 70-300 L lens element or its barrel. I do not recommend mounting this combination due to potential damage the to lens.

I of course felt the need to try out these unsupported combinations. My solution to the damage risk issue was to Gaffer Tape the lens zoom ring to lock it at the 300mm mark while using extenders.

Mounting a 1.4x or 2x extender behind any lens reduces its aperture range by 1 or 2 stops respectively. At review time, only Canon 1-Series bodies can autofocus when using the very-dark f/8 max aperture the 70-300 L lens and 1.4x extender combination yields. Tested 1D X and 1Ds III bodies autofocused this combination.

No bodies can AF with the even-darker f/11 max aperture the 70-300 L and 2x combo yields. While it tries, the tested 1Ds III body cannot lock focus with this combination.

The interesting part of this story starts with the fact that the Canon Extenders do not report their presence when mounted behind the 70-300 L. The reported max aperture incorrectly remains f/5.6.

And what is much more interesting is that the 70-300 L and 1.4x combination's f/8 max aperture combination autofocuses even when mounted to the 60D (and presumably on most/all other Canon EOS bodies). Autofocus speed with the 1.4x extender is very, very slow on all tested bodies, but AF does work - even on the 60D.

Since I'm sure you are wondering what the image quality from these combinations looks like, here is a look at the Canon EF 70-300 L with EF 1.4x III Extender ISO 12233 image quality. Image softening from the 1.4x is very noticeable at f/8 in mid and outer regions of the image circle, though the center of the frame remains reasonably sharp. CA becomes pronounced with increasing amounts visible toward the outer image circle. Stopping down to f/11 results in modestly better image quality.