Voigtländer 28mm f/2.8 Color Skopar Pancake Lens in EF Mount

[infared]

Just saw this listing on Canon Watch
http://www.canonwatch.com/voigtlander-28-mm-f2-8-colorskopar-sl-ii-n-comes-with-ef-mount
Does anyone know of any info or reviews about this lens.....Looks intriguing to me!
I would like to know if the lens is at least connected to the CPU on a Canon camera...ie...do you get focus confirmation. It is not definitely apparent in the stats...only for the Nikon does Voigtlander specify that.

 

[Drizzt321]

If it was f/1.8 or faster I'd certainly be interested, although the price might be a bit much without AF unless it had superb optics.

 

[funkboy]

Well, I'm a big fan of the 20mm version. Having full electronic control & metering makes a lot of difference with an MF lens vs. using an adapter...

28mm f/2.8 might not sound like much on paper, but like the new Canon IS WA primes & pancake if it's sharp edge-to-edge straight away from wide-open then it does have some optical advantages vs. say an f/4 zoom that needs to be stopped down to f/5.6 to be as crisp.

Of course the size/weight advantages are obvious. Another not-so-obvious advantage with Voigt & Zeiss electronic MF lenses is that they have a really long focus travel so that the MF is a lot easier & precise. This helps a lot for video too...

 

[infared]

So Funkboy....you are confirming that this new voightlander is most likely electronically coupled for metering and focus confirmation on a Canon FF camera?....pardon my ignorance...but I am not too familiar with thes lenses.....

 

[Drizzt321]

Well, I'm a big fan of the 20mm version. Having full electronic control & metering makes a lot of difference with an MF lens vs. using an adapter...

28mm f/2.8 might not sound like much on paper, but like the new Canon IS WA primes & pancake if it's sharp edge-to-edge straight away from wide-open then it does have some optical advantages vs. say an f/4 zoom that needs to be stopped down to f/5.6 to be as crisp.

Of course the size/weight advantages are obvious. Another not-so-obvious advantage with Voigt & Zeiss electronic MF lenses is that they have a really long focus travel so that the MF is a lot easier & precise. This helps a lot for video too...

Oh, good point about the focus travel for MF. I'm just saying that for 549 Euro/671 USD I'd want it to be faster than f/2.8. Help with the DoF and such, which on a wide angle you need some pretty large separation between subject and background to get that really lovely Bokeh that a 9-bladed lens can give.

For me, I'll go for the shorty forty, especially since it's so great wide open and a lot cheaper.

 

[funkboy]

So Funkboy....you are confirming that this new voightlander is most likely electronically coupled for metering and focus confirmation on a Canon FF camera?....pardon my ignorance...but I am not too familiar with thes lenses.....

Yep, if you look at a picture of any of the Zeiss ZE or Voigtländer SLII series for native EF mounts they have something in common:

- EF mount electrical contacts
- no aperture ring

so,

- you get AF point lights when your manual focus hits (but they're not the most accurate as I find their "AF" calibration to be fairly far off vs. a lens that relies on AF; best relied upon if you've got a body with AF calibration)
- you don't have to mess with stop-down metering & aperture is fully electronic in 1/3 stop increments just like a normal Canon lens.

I find that it's a lot nicer with wide-angles than with telephotos. A lens like the 85mm Zeiss might be super hot but why bother when Canon has two great 85s (unless you need the long-throw MF for video)? OTOH the Voigt Color Skopars are the best way to get very high IQ faster than f/4 in a native EF full-frame wide-angle for a lot less cash than an L, and they're compact & discrete to boot.

I will however give props to the recent-production Canon 17-40 f/4L here, as tolerances have evidently gotten a lot better than the one I bought a decade ago, & it's a great deal if you're on FF. But it's still pretty big...

 

[funkboy]

Dirzzt, in general I'd want a faster aperture for the money too, but if you look at the history of retrofocus (wide-angle) SLR lens design, you pretty much have two choices:

- modest aperture like f/2.8 (or f/3.5 in my 20mm Color Skopar), compact, and well-controlled distortion. Also not too pricey. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the construction of this new Voigt is almost identical to my "made in West Germany" C/Y Zeiss Distagon, which is also a 28mm f/2.8, razor-sharp wide open, & fits comfortably in a shirt pocket. Cosina makes them both now anyway...

- f/2 & faster lenses specifically designed for wide apertures, that are big, heavy, expensive, and have soft corners & more distortion (not to mention usually slower AF as they have a lot of glass to move around). Nice ones like the new mkII Canon Ls go a good distance towards controlling some of this, but you pay through the nose for it (not to mention size & weight).

The 40mm Canon pancake (& the Voigt 40mm f/2 Nokton pancake) are a completely different class of lens as they're not retrofocus & can't really be considered a wide-angle on full-frame. There's a room full of difference between 40mm & 28, and it wasn't that long ago that 24mm was considered ultrawide on FF...

You can see it in Canon's new 24 & 28 designs too. They're both f/2.8 because they were optimizing for compactness and high IQ across the frame wide-open. Of course having IS comes at a price, but these things are pretty much L IQ & AF and close to L build (albeit without weatherseals). Again, looks a lot like my old Distagon. Even the MTF charts resemble each other fairly closely (the point I'm making is to look at the shape of the curves & distance between sagittal & tangental, not the raw numbers):

Fast wide-angle SLR lenses are a black art, & probably the hardest lenses to design as there are so many tradeoffs involved. I think this is one reason Fuji entered the mirrorless market with their own mount rather than continuing to try to make DSLRs or piggyback on someone else's system (I imagine that they considered μ4/3 but decided that the sensor wasn't big enough for them to go after the professional market, plus there are a lot more APS-C size fabs available). The Fujinon XF 35mm f/1.4 (which only costs $600) is so good & so cheap because the X-Pro 1 doesn't need retrofocus lenses. The XF mount has such a short registration distance that anything 18mm or longer can use a much simpler design, and that's a pretty decent wide-angle focal length on APS-C.

 

[Drizzt321]

All great points, and I've learned something having had to look up retrofocus lenses. Makes a lot of sense that it's still very difficult and expensive to make any of the wide angle lenses very fast on a FF sensor SLR. Maybe this is one area an eventual mirrorless FF camera will help for glass design and cost.

 

[Michael_pfh]

Since I have become a Zeiss fanboy recently I must mention that there is a Zeiss 28mm which might be an alternative:
http://lenses.zeiss.com/photo/en_DE/products/slr/distagont228.usage.html

 

[Drizzt321]

Since I have become a Zeiss fanboy recently I must mention that there is a Zeiss 28mm which might be an alternative:
http://lenses.zeiss.com/photo/en_DE/products/slr/distagont228.usage.html

Yes, at close to double the price. As funkboy explained to me, fast wide angle lenses include some additional difficult design work that raises the price quite a bit. And the more glass, the more expensive it tends to be Although the Zeiss lens would be quite nice to have, unfortunately not something I really can afford.

 

[Michael_pfh]

My latest toy, the ZE 35mm F2.0 is much less expensive and might be another alternative close to the 28mm focal length...

 

[infared]

Dirzzt, in general I'd want a faster aperture for the money too, but if you look at the history of retrofocus (wide-angle) SLR lens design, you pretty much have two choices:

- modest aperture like f/2.8 (or f/3.5 in my 20mm Color Skopar), compact, and well-controlled distortion. Also not too pricey. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the construction of this new Voigt is almost identical to my "made in West Germany" C/Y Zeiss Distagon, which is also a 28mm f/2.8, razor-sharp wide open, & fits comfortably in a shirt pocket. Cosina makes them both now anyway...

- f/2 & faster lenses specifically designed for wide apertures, that are big, heavy, expensive, and have soft corners & more distortion (not to mention usually slower AF as they have a lot of glass to move around). Nice ones like the new mkII Canon Ls go a good distance towards controlling some of this, but you pay through the nose for it (not to mention size & weight).

The 40mm Canon pancake (& the Voigt 40mm f/2 Nokton pancake) are a completely different class of lens as they're not retrofocus & can't really be considered a wide-angle on full-frame. There's a room full of difference between 40mm & 28, and it wasn't that long ago that 24mm was considered ultrawide on FF...

You can see it in Canon's new 24 & 28 designs too. They're both f/2.8 because they were optimizing for compactness and high IQ across the frame wide-open. Of course having IS comes at a price, but these things are pretty much L IQ & AF and close to L build (albeit without weatherseals). Again, looks a lot like my old Distagon. Even the MTF charts resemble each other fairly closely (the point I'm making is to look at the shape of the curves & distance between sagittal & tangental, not the raw numbers):

Fast wide-angle SLR lenses are a black art, & probably the hardest lenses to design as there are so many tradeoffs involved. I think this is one reason Fuji entered the mirrorless market with their own mount rather than continuing to try to make DSLRs or piggyback on someone else's system (I imagine that they considered μ4/3 but decided that the sensor wasn't big enough for them to go after the professional market, plus there are a lot more APS-C size fabs available). The Fujinon XF 35mm f/1.4 (which only costs $600) is so good & so cheap because the X-Pro 1 doesn't need retrofocus lenses. The XF mount has such a short registration distance that anything 18mm or longer can use a much simpler design, and that's a pretty decent wide-angle focal length on APS-C.

WOW! Thanks EVERYBODY for all of your input!
Funkboy...I want to become more Funkadelic...I looked up about retro focus and I understand why this makes lens design more difficult and larger with the mirror etc....but can you explain what you are trying to impart with the charts and the sagittal & tangental lines. I am lost.
Also...I know we have "not much" to go on with the new Voigtlander 28mm...but do you think this lens will approach the performance of the Zeiss 28mm f/2.0? (aside from the f/stop difference?)

 

[wickidwombat]

Well, I'm a big fan of the 20mm version. Having full electronic control & metering makes a lot of difference with an MF lens vs. using an adapter...

28mm f/2.8 might not sound like much on paper, but like the new Canon IS WA primes & pancake if it's sharp edge-to-edge straight away from wide-open then it does have some optical advantages vs. say an f/4 zoom that needs to be stopped down to f/5.6 to be as crisp.

Of course the size/weight advantages are obvious. Another not-so-obvious advantage with Voigt & Zeiss electronic MF lenses is that they have a really long focus travel so that the MF is a lot easier & precise. This helps a lot for video too...

yeah i got the 20mm its sweet very heavy though solid little beast, hard stop infinty is good and the electronic aperture control is really nice. focus ring is really slick

 

[funkboy]

can you explain what you are trying to impart with the charts and the sagittal & tangental lines. I am lost.

here's Michael Reichmann's explanation of MTF. Basically I'm just pointing out that the two designs are separated by 40 years but their optical characteristics are pretty similar.

do you think this lens will approach the performance of the Zeiss 28mm f/2.0? (aside from the f/stop difference?)

weeelll, DigiLloyd has the most extensive review of the new Zeiss glass on the net, but there are also a lot of more technical reviews on Photozone. Photozone also reviews most of the new Voigtländers (look in the Nikon reviews as well if you can't find a Canon test).

Voigtländer's 40mm Nokton didn't really seem to be worth the money; Photozone didn't like it too much. Canon's new pancake may be a stop slower but it's another lens that does extremely well wide-open so you can really use it at f/2.8, plus it has AF of course...

The 20mm Color Skopar might not be as good as a Zeiss but it's still really very nice. Just bear in mind that the 21mm f/2.8 Zeiss costs a full three times the price of the Voigt, & it's certainly not 3 times better (& it's only 2/3 stop faster & a lot heavier). Yes, the Zeiss has maximum performance, but do you really need it? If you're shooting weddings or something, maybe you do. I don't. BTW they're both made in the same factory by Cosina (of course the Zeiss has Zeiss QA engineers on the production line...).

I will say that I was disappointed with the 50mm ZE Planar. It's extreme loss of contrast wide-open is nasty. If Canon releases a new 50mm for mere mortals I'm trading it in on that.

I think a more pertinent question is how the new 28mm Voigt will stack up next to the new Canon 24 & 28. The Voigt will probably be a couple hundred bucks cheaper than the new Canons, but then the Canons have USM AF and IS, which is probably worth the couple hundred bucks. Now if the new Voigt turns out to be half the price of the new Canons then that's a different story...

In any case I'm certainly glad that we're finally seeing some real competition in this arena of small wide-angle primes that hasn't moved much in a long time. Maybe Tokina & Tamron will join the party... Now that I think about it, it would be hot if Sigma added OS to their 30mm f/1.4 and removed some of the suck factor.

 

[infared]

Wow...I am learning a lot here...and I'd like to thank you again for being so helpful. Your honest, intelligent assessments have given me some food for thought.
I have the Zeiss 21mm and would not give it up for another. I also have the Canon 16-35mm II for when I need AF ....but the Zeiss puts it to shame in the 21mm arena...The Zeiss was worth the money to me ...every time I open a file from that lens I am stunned (Unless I miss my focus...LOL).
I use a Sigma(?) 50mm f/1.4....which surprised even me because I thought I would NEVER own a Sigma because of the "S" factor....but I am very happy with the performance vs. size vs.cost of the lens.
I haven't really had any of the front/back focusing issues with my lens that I have read about. I like the lens a lot. The only thing that I could not stand about the lens was the cheezy shiny gold band around it...so I covered it up with some cool pin-striping paint. LOL!

Obviously, I am considering a 28mm for my Mark III....and I have yet to read an inspiring review of ANY 28mm....I am holding out a little hope that the upcoming Canon 24-70mm 2.8 L II will be an incredible lens...if it is...I can skip the 28mm and focus on something else....like the new Zeiss 15mm. Now there are some PASSIONATE reviews.
.........hmmmmmmmmm
LOL!

 

[funkboy]

Wow...I am learning a lot here...and I'd like to thank you again for being so helpful. Your honest, intelligent assessments have given me some food for thought.

Thanks . Honestly I like this place a lot more now that the Smite button is gone. <grin>

I have the Zeiss 21mm and would not give it up for another.

Yep, I understand completely. I've owned a lot of Zeiss glass:

- 50mm f/1.4 Planar (C/Y mount, adapted)
- 28mm f/2.8 Distagon (C/Y mount, adapted)
- 35mm f/1.4 Distagon (C/Y mount, adapted)
- 50mm f/1.4 Planar (native ZE mount)

Zeiss has a very different drawing style than Canon and emphasizes different aspects (e.g. microcontrast) that make the images seem more "alive". Congrats on that 21, it's great investment. Most reviewers conclude that it's one of the best wide-angle SLR optics on the planet, full stop. If you ever have to sell it you'll probably get fairly close to what you put into it. Certainly it won't depreciate with age.

I use a Sigma 50mm f/1.4....

Another nice lens. I feel it's a bit big & heavy for a 50mm, but then on a 5D it probably balances better.

Obviously, I am considering a 28mm for my Mark III....and I have yet to read an inspiring review of ANY 28mm...

Well, to tide yourself over maybe you should go pick up a new 40mm Canon pancake. I'm grabbing one as soon as I get paid again. The bang-for-buck factor on that thing is amazing.

Personally I really like Distagons a lot. I currently use an adapted 35mm f/1.4 as the "normal" lens for my 40D. I gave that 28 to my brother for Christmas last year, & he's done some great stuff with it so far.

I assume that if you've already got the 16-35 II and you're looking for a 28mm, it's either because you want something smaller or you're unhappy with the performance of the 16-35.

If it's a performance problem, you might check your autofocus calibration on it. Also, read through the reviews of the lens & check if the things that bother you were noted in the review. If you seem to have unique problems, then it's either a focus calibration issue or you truly have a bad copy.

Both Digilloyd & Photozone give the Zeiss 28mm f/2 a lot of praise, but mark it down a bit for the field curvature issue. Evidently it's not too bad & unless you really need sharp corners it's probably not a showstopper. I agree that a $1k lens shoudn't have this issue though, espeically a Zeiss. In my case, the curvature is almost certainly completely outside the APS-C frame, so I'd been considering one...

 

[infared]

Ok...this is disappointing... I wrote to Voigtlander t o inquire about the new 28mm. Their response contained the following info:

"New SLII-N Color Skopar f2.8/28mm with Canon EOS and Nikon AI-S mount will
launch soon.
The first delivery of this lens will be end of July / beginning of August.
Lens with Canon mount does not have CPU integrated, only with Nikon AI-S
mount.".

I am definitely bummed that there is no CPU coupling for the lens. I would not purchase a manual focus lens without CPU coupling...ESPECIALLY in that price range. Curious that they hook up the Nikon, but not the Canon?????

 

[Drizzt321]

Ok...this is disappointing... I wrote to Voigtlander t o inquire about the new 28mm. Their response contained the following info:

"New SLII-N Color Skopar f2.8/28mm with Canon EOS and Nikon AI-S mount will
launch soon.
The first delivery of this lens will be end of July / beginning of August.
Lens with Canon mount does not have CPU integrated, only with Nikon AI-S
mount.".

I am definitely bummed that there is no CPU coupling for the lens. I would not purchase a manual focus lens without CPU coupling...ESPECIALLY in that price range. Curious that they hook up the Nikon, but not the Canon?????

Could be a licensing type thing, or some quirk that makes the Canon much harder or more expensive to support.

 

[funkboy]

"New SLII-N Color Skopar f2.8/28mm with Canon EOS and Nikon AI-S mount will
launch soon. The first delivery of this lens will be end of July / beginning of August.
Lens with Canon mount does not have CPU integrated, only with Nikon AI-S
mount."

Thanks for posting that. Its definitely strange given that all their other EF lenses are fully electronic (except for focus of course). Just having correct exif data is a big bonus.

But I wouldn't put toooo much stock into the response of one support person on an unreleased product though. Look at the specs on the original web page from the first link:

Connection AI-S (CPU integrated) Canon EOS

That's probably what he/she was quoting, and since "EOS" doesn't say "CPU integrated" next to it the person that responded to you may have been misled (because notably the Pentax KA version of the original Zeiss ZF series, as well as a lot of other SL series type lenses that Cosina did didn't have any electronics in them).

Of the telltale signs that the EOS version will in fact probably be electronic is that just like all the other Voigt lenses that come in F and EF mounts, the EF mount version of the new 28 weighs & costs a little more than the Nikon mount version, & is a little bigger (notably it's a little fatter in order to fit the electronic diaphragm in there). All the other electronic Voigtlanders are just like that.

Anyway, I'd reserve judgement until I see a picture of the EOS version. If it doesn't have an aperture ring, then its the same as the ZE series and other electronic Voigtländers.

 

[funkboy]

The cool thing is that they may be shipping in less than a month!

But some other spiffy stuff can be gleaned from the specs:

• It's a pancake!
• 9 diaphragm blades should mean pretty good bokeh
• 52mm filters are nice & cheap, & the same as the Canon nifty 50
• Minimum focus distance & macro capability are similar to the 20mm Color Skopar, which is unusual & very cool for this type of lens
• It will probably vignette quite a bit wide-open like most pancakes
• My old C/Y Distagon was 7 elements in 7 groups (this one is 7E in 6G), so I imagine it's a fairly similar design with a significant revisit for compactness.
• Did I mention it's a pancake?!?

BTW it was on DPreview today.

Here's the element layout. It's a baby classic Distagon with an aspherical element .

I'd want to see an MTF chart before I order one, but image quality should be very good indeed. This is just a wild-ass guess but I'd say it'll be in the same ballpark as its 20mm Color Skopar brother but probably better as 28mm is a lot less ambitious than 20mm, and also a more common/classic focal length.