What is 20,000 shutter clicks worth?
- Thread starter TexPhoto
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So wrong shutter count and it was not cleaned when he said it was.
I would call canon ask the total cost inc shipping both ways to get it cleaned.
request that by showing evidence that it was my cleaned. Once he agrees and pays still ding him for neutral or negative feed back if he gives you any hassle and you need to open a case.
if he is an honest seller he will refund you with out opening a case if he does positive feed back if you have to open a case beg.
remember you have 40-45 days to open so don't rush get all your facts lined up and approach it respectfully and I hope it all works put.
I would call canon ask the total cost inc shipping both ways to get it cleaned.
request that by showing evidence that it was my cleaned. Once he agrees and pays still ding him for neutral or negative feed back if he gives you any hassle and you need to open a case.
if he is an honest seller he will refund you with out opening a case if he does positive feed back if you have to open a case beg.
remember you have 40-45 days to open so don't rush get all your facts lined up and approach it respectfully and I hope it all works put.
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dryanparker
Art photographer based in Miami.
In checking out the sold listing on eBay, the seller seems to check out with a 100% positive rating. However, there are some interesting red flags...including his poor-form additional shipping request.
#1) Why would he elect not to accept a return? The good news is he doesn't have to for you to be protected. Since the item did not arrive as described, eBay Buyer Protection should cover you.
#2) You might be able to reach out to CPS and inquire based on the serial of the camera. That could at least help you check out his claim of being the original purchaser and the associated refurb/service reports. If he's a high-level CPS member, they should have some info on him.
#1) Why would he elect not to accept a return? The good news is he doesn't have to for you to be protected. Since the item did not arrive as described, eBay Buyer Protection should cover you.
#2) You might be able to reach out to CPS and inquire based on the serial of the camera. That could at least help you check out his claim of being the original purchaser and the associated refurb/service reports. If he's a high-level CPS member, they should have some info on him.
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Shoot your freaking out over nothing... 7000 clicks vs 20000, it's still a baby. Heck i've had my 5d3 for a year and a bit or so and i wouldn't be at all surprised if it has more than 20,000, although it doesn't bother me as i'll be driving this camera into the ground... Assuming the 1d4 shutter will last 400k shutter clicks on average, 25000 is like 6% of it's lifespan? You already go the camera for almost 50% original full price retail, not the 6% depreciation, so dont sweat it. Unless there is additional damages or issues, stop fretting and go take some picture.
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Dylan777 said:With that much money, why not get a NEW 5D III from authourized dealer
I thought I was the only one thinking this... +1
Even if 20K clicks is nothing... for me, the deceptive listing justifies asking for a refund. Something to the effect of "Given your shutter count (the most important factor in considering a used camera) is higher by over double what your listing claims, I propose that....etc" I'd probably make a subtle hint that you plan on reporting/leaving negative feedback if they don't agree to credit you a reasonable difference.
The fact is, if you DON'T know the actual shutter count, dont make one up. Even if it's an innocent mistake—it's still the seller's mistake and he has to be left accountable for destroying his own credibility and the piece of mind of the buyer. And now the buyer is responsible for shipping a 10lb package and being out thousands of dollars in the bank for something they didnt even want in the first place. I say you deserve a credit (do it by issuing the seller an invoice through PayPal and be clear about what it's for). If you decide to return it, I say the seller should be responsible for taking it back without hassle and comping you the return shipping. I've done that on eBay as a seller when I made a mistake in the listing...
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Jay Khaos said:Dylan777 said:With that much money, why not get a NEW 5D III from authourized dealer
I thought I was the only one thinking this... +1
Even if 20K clicks is nothing... for me, the deceptive listing justifies asking for a refund. Something to the effect of "Given your shutter count (the most important factor in considering a used camera) is higher by over double what your listing claims, I propose that....etc" I'd probably make a subtle hint that you plan on reporting/leaving negative feedback if they don't agree to credit you a reasonable difference.
The fact is, if you DON'T know the actual shutter count, dont make one up. Even if it's an innocent mistake—it's still the seller's mistake and he has to be left accountable for destroying his own credibility and the piece of mind of the buyer. And now the buyer is responsible for shipping a 10lb package and being out thousands of dollars in the bank for something they didnt even want in the first place. I say you deserve a credit (do it by issuing the seller an invoice through PayPal and be clear about what it's for). If you decide to return it, I say the seller should be responsible for taking it back without hassle and comping you the return shipping. I've done that on eBay as a seller when I made a mistake in the listing...
I've sold 3 used cameras on ebay and i dont know about this listing, but on all mine, i list sold as is... I have a rough guess on the shutter count, and I give the disclosure of what I presume the shutter count to be and say it has been professionally used. They take responsibility in accepting the camera. Plus, it's not like a car where the car blatantly displays the odometer for everyone and their brother can see, it is rather tricky to find. So if the seller doesn't take it back, you could have ebay act as a mediation, but if you received the camera in good condition and in the physical condition claimed to be (minus shutter count), then i doubt ebay would force a refund. Just take the camera and enjoy it.
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TexPhoto said:
I can sympathize with you a bit, because it sounds like the seller could be dishonest. So the first question is, should his dishonesty be rewarded? The bit about asking you for more shipping after the fact, just seems low-class...what is his feedback rating on ebay? What shipping service was it? If I shipped something camera-sized UPS and insured it for $3000, it doesn't seem like it should cost in the $70 range unless the shipping was expedited, or unless it came from Asia or something. Also, recently I was told by USPS that they cannot legally ship anything with a lithium battery outside the continental USA...
As for the shutter cycles, (as others have indicated) 25,000 is lower than average for a pro sports body, especially since the most recent time it could have been bought new, was over a year ago. (I assume you checked the serial number before buying it?). My xxD body had about that many cycles when I sold it, but it still looked and performed like brand new (most of those cycles were not at its max 6 fps). And it was only rated for 100k cycles. Of course I baby my gear.
The main question is...Is this a fair asking price for a typical 1D4 in similar condition? I had a look at Amazon marketplace, and it looks like the average asking price for used units in "good" but not "like new" condition is $3300 to $3400. So unless this one is scratched up or otherwise worn, the price is probably fair...but that does not make up for the seller's apparent dishonesty.
In my opinion you would have been better off just buying a new 5D3 (and its battery grip if you need the capacity/form factor). I rented the 1D4 last fall, and loved it. But renting it, got the desire to own one out of my system. The only thing the 1D4 can really do better than a 5D3, is fire 4 additional frames per second. It can't AF quite as well, it has worse image noise, and it can't go as wide with wide angle lenses. As for the "crop factor", it is 25 MP "effective full frame resolution" vs. 22. When you factor in the better noise performance, the 5D3 will begin to have a resolution advantage at higher ISO.
That said, for my needs, the 6D fit the bill even better, and it gave me enough funds left over to buy another lens. The only pro body I now aspire to own, is the 1DX replacement...time will tell.
TexPhoto, I hope you make the right decision, and that it works out for you.
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The guy clearly listed it was a refurb, does anybody know when a shutter count starts for a refurb unit? I don't but I know for a fact Canon can reset them. He also says it has 11 months Canon warranty on it, which he will honour and that Canon verified the 7,400 count. There should be paperwork supporting that, I'd trust Canon letterhead paperwork over some third party software hack that has been proven to be inaccurate in the past.
As for his feedback, he has a 190 with 132 from sales and a 100% record. Not as good as TexPhoto though none of them were for Lego, but plenty good enough to be considered honest, especially looking at the consistent type of items he has sold, 300 f4, lots of high end P&S's (which seems to be a hobby all in itself nowadays) and a laptop or two.
Without at least looking at both sides to a story I'd hold off on the crucifixion. If I were the seller and I had Canon paperwork I'd take the camera back, cancel the auction and blacklist TexPhoto.
As for his feedback, he has a 190 with 132 from sales and a 100% record. Not as good as TexPhoto though none of them were for Lego, but plenty good enough to be considered honest, especially looking at the consistent type of items he has sold, 300 f4, lots of high end P&S's (which seems to be a hobby all in itself nowadays) and a laptop or two.
Without at least looking at both sides to a story I'd hold off on the crucifixion. If I were the seller and I had Canon paperwork I'd take the camera back, cancel the auction and blacklist TexPhoto.
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In that case, bearing in mind he has the wrong box, I wouldn't be very happy. For me it would be no Canon paperwork no sale, regardless of shutter count, excuses or emails.
I have bought several 1 series cameras via eBay, one was $4,250, but I would not deal with such waffle and excuses, if they can't back up their claims then send it back for the principal of the thing as much as anything. I am sure there is not much wrong with the camera, just the seller.
I have bought several 1 series cameras via eBay, one was $4,250, but I would not deal with such waffle and excuses, if they can't back up their claims then send it back for the principal of the thing as much as anything. I am sure there is not much wrong with the camera, just the seller.
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I've been a member of eBay since 1998 and did a lot of selling and buying there back in the "wild west" days when scam sellers could leave negatives for buyers. I've seen and lived through the changes as the pendulum has swing way over to the buyers' side and has only now started to very slowly swing back a small amount. I have a small eBay business now (10-15 sales/week most of the time, 50-100/week September-early December).
This sale has several red flags:
Red flag number one is when he asked for more money for shipping.
Red flag number two is the discrepancy in the shutter count. As a seller, if I were notified of that I would fall all over myself in horror and immediately offer to make things right in any number of ways including taking it back or offering some cash consideration. The seller didn't do that. In fact he seems to be changing his story.
Red flag number three is a dirty camera that was allegedly recently cleaned.
Red flag number four is the lack of any documentation from Canon, even an email.
But the biggest red flag of them all is a sale with "No Returns". An honorable seller always offers to take something back, particularly if it is not as described. I understand no returns for "buyer's remorse" but if there is a material discrepancy between the description and the actual item, that's not buyer's remorse.
You are potentially protected by eBay's buyer protection since the shutter count is off and the seller can't provide proof. It's a judgment call but eBay tends to err on the side of the buyer.
In order for eBay to make money they need buyers. They make money every time a buyer makes a purchase. They want happy buyers who trust in their marketplace. They want buyers with loads of cash. They really couldn't care less if someone can't sell his camera because the competition is such that someone else with a similar camera will come along and the buyer with the cash will buy.
In fact, things tend to sell for what they are worth, especially on auctions. There are only occasional "bargains" on eBay.
This is what I would do:
File an eBay buyer protection case for an "item not as described". Have all your documentation ready including screenshots, emails, etc. Now the ball is in his court. Perhaps he will offer to make things right. If he doesn't. and you proceed to have eBay settle the dispute one of two things will happen. Either you win and get your money back plus the cost of return shipping, or you lose. If you lose, you are exactly where you are today. If you win, buy from a more accommodating seller with a reasonable return policy.
What I would NOT do:
Do not, under any circumstances, threaten to leave negative or neutral feedback in any way. It could hurt your case, and also it would be grounds to have that feedback removed, thus preventing other buyers from knowing about this transaction.
A little more about feedback. I have very rarely left so much as a neutral. Even in a bad transaction, if it ends well, I might say nothing, or find something nice to say in the context of a positive. People can see the feedback you leave and people can cancel your bids and blacklist you if you are a frequent complainer. I've left one neutral and zero negatives in the last five years or so. The neutral was well deserved. The seller changed shipping methods (from UPS Ground as stated in the listing, to UPS Mail Innovations, a slower, cheaper service), he lied about the actual shipping date to keep his Top Rated Seller standing and discount (they get 20% off final value fees but must ship by next business day), he was evasive when I asked about the fact that the tracking number was not yet in the system, and he generally was a creep.
This sale has several red flags:
Red flag number one is when he asked for more money for shipping.
Red flag number two is the discrepancy in the shutter count. As a seller, if I were notified of that I would fall all over myself in horror and immediately offer to make things right in any number of ways including taking it back or offering some cash consideration. The seller didn't do that. In fact he seems to be changing his story.
Red flag number three is a dirty camera that was allegedly recently cleaned.
Red flag number four is the lack of any documentation from Canon, even an email.
But the biggest red flag of them all is a sale with "No Returns". An honorable seller always offers to take something back, particularly if it is not as described. I understand no returns for "buyer's remorse" but if there is a material discrepancy between the description and the actual item, that's not buyer's remorse.
You are potentially protected by eBay's buyer protection since the shutter count is off and the seller can't provide proof. It's a judgment call but eBay tends to err on the side of the buyer.
In order for eBay to make money they need buyers. They make money every time a buyer makes a purchase. They want happy buyers who trust in their marketplace. They want buyers with loads of cash. They really couldn't care less if someone can't sell his camera because the competition is such that someone else with a similar camera will come along and the buyer with the cash will buy.
In fact, things tend to sell for what they are worth, especially on auctions. There are only occasional "bargains" on eBay.
This is what I would do:
File an eBay buyer protection case for an "item not as described". Have all your documentation ready including screenshots, emails, etc. Now the ball is in his court. Perhaps he will offer to make things right. If he doesn't. and you proceed to have eBay settle the dispute one of two things will happen. Either you win and get your money back plus the cost of return shipping, or you lose. If you lose, you are exactly where you are today. If you win, buy from a more accommodating seller with a reasonable return policy.
What I would NOT do:
Do not, under any circumstances, threaten to leave negative or neutral feedback in any way. It could hurt your case, and also it would be grounds to have that feedback removed, thus preventing other buyers from knowing about this transaction.
A little more about feedback. I have very rarely left so much as a neutral. Even in a bad transaction, if it ends well, I might say nothing, or find something nice to say in the context of a positive. People can see the feedback you leave and people can cancel your bids and blacklist you if you are a frequent complainer. I've left one neutral and zero negatives in the last five years or so. The neutral was well deserved. The seller changed shipping methods (from UPS Ground as stated in the listing, to UPS Mail Innovations, a slower, cheaper service), he lied about the actual shipping date to keep his Top Rated Seller standing and discount (they get 20% off final value fees but must ship by next business day), he was evasive when I asked about the fact that the tracking number was not yet in the system, and he generally was a creep.
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TexPhoto said:
hmmm... given what you mentioned in your correspondence, I guess I would be nervous also... Did he initially in the listing mention that it was refurbished? I know when i sold my 5d mark 2, i had tons of scammers, kinda opposite though, saying they were deployed and if i could ship it to their spouses and such and lots of wire money and stuff... I never went for it, but since he's pulling the same stunt, it would be just as cautious, and whether he could or even would return the money or not is another concern... a lot of these scams, the moment you send money, unless you are protected by your bank, paypal, etc, once the money is gone, it's gone. Granted, usually if it was a scam, you would have likely received a picture of your camera rather than the real thing... Most warranties last a year and refurbished aren't even that long, so warranties, I would expect would be null and void. Good luck
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i think people in this thread overreact quite a lot. oh my god, he lied about shutter count, what if he actually stole it as well? what if he is a murderer? what if, what if... WHAT IF he is an honest guy, but really didnt bother to check the actual shutter count and estimated it and is telling the truth about the papers?
its a PRO body as many have stated before, and if as you said, its in mint condition, i wouldnt worry one bit if it was a good sale.
its a PRO body as many have stated before, and if as you said, its in mint condition, i wouldnt worry one bit if it was a good sale.
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