What is the typical DR for following?
- Thread starter mukul
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mukul said:
Muhahaha, that's a enterprising question to ask around CR :->. I'd say the typical dynamic range for a current dslr is ~14 stops on low iso (depends on sensor iq quality
), rapidly declining at higher iso. Lookie here: http://sensorgen.info/I'm interested if anyone comes up with a valid answer for "human eye", that's a tough one as we're not digital!
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I think you need to define how old the human is.
For that matter you might have to set ages for the DSLR and Monitor.
But the order is reversed. The newer DSLR's might have a wider DR than the older. The younger humans will probably have the wider DR.
For that matter you might have to set ages for the DSLR and Monitor.
But the order is reversed. The newer DSLR's might have a wider DR than the older. The younger humans will probably have the wider DR.
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Cambridgeincolour puts the dynamic range of the human eye at around 10-14 stops. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm#sensitivity
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The question isn't as simple as it sounds and the answers will, inevitably, be answering different ones.
They all react to the scene DR differently so drawing such blunt comparisons is not helpful. What would be helpful was if you gave the question context, i.e. What is the reason for your question?
For instance, the human eye can scan a scene with a massive DR but it can't actually see detail in both light and dark at the same time, but your brain can interpret those scans, effectively multi exposure blending. Or, for screen DR are you talking calibrated at a 'standard' brightness level or full screen brightness? Or for the camera, are you talking 'old time' DR, the difference between the lightest and darkest tones, or are you talking the modern interpretation of DR that cuts the dark tone value at the level they are swamped by noise?
They all react to the scene DR differently so drawing such blunt comparisons is not helpful. What would be helpful was if you gave the question context, i.e. What is the reason for your question?
For instance, the human eye can scan a scene with a massive DR but it can't actually see detail in both light and dark at the same time, but your brain can interpret those scans, effectively multi exposure blending. Or, for screen DR are you talking calibrated at a 'standard' brightness level or full screen brightness? Or for the camera, are you talking 'old time' DR, the difference between the lightest and darkest tones, or are you talking the modern interpretation of DR that cuts the dark tone value at the level they are swamped by noise?
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IglooEater said:
Interesting, but they don't underly this with any research but it sounds rather like an educated guess by asking 'round the family:
My personal guess would be subjective max. 10ev for the human eye because that's when hdr images start to feel "unnatural" as the dr is so squashed you'll never have the same impression like in real life.
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Marsu42 said:
10-14 is a common answer around the net family. I have seen answers higher, one claimed 20 stops for the human eye.
But to PBD's comment about the brain blending, your eye has to adjust to do this. If you take this route one could say that the camera has a very wide DR. I have used my camera more than once to take shots in total darkness that I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. Long exposure, wide open aperture and have been able to get a picture of what can not be seen without a flash light. I have used this method several times at work to get images of items that I had to work on but could not see. So in that respect the camera has a much wider DR than the human eye, but poor or no ability to blend.
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takesome1 said:
10-14 is an estimate of what you can see at the same time. Give the eye time to adjust to light changes through change of aperture and chemical changes and the total dynamic range is somewhere around 20stops.
10-14 is way higher than a print or screen so in order too reproduce the same things as we can see with our eyes we need to push shadows to reproduce the same range. Fortunately our brain isn't that good at registering how bright different parts of the scene really are so it can be effective if done properly.
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An IPS LCD display has a Dynamic Range of roughly 10 or 11 (see ANSI contrast ratio).
A better display (or print) would be required to view images at a higher DR and still appear natural as you put it.
The DR of a print would be limited by the INK's ability to obsorb light without reflecting it v.s. it's ability to reflect light, the amount of light present, and your acclimation to the sceen.
e.g. shine an intense lamp on black ink and it no longer looks very black. -or- shine an intese light on some black charcoal and hold it against the night sky for a reference point.
A display capable of high dynamic range would consume a tremendous amount of power and would look impressive.
Your eyes ability to 'see' dynamic range varies. (When you leave a bright area and enter a dark one, your range will be reduced until you acclimate. This is why pirates wore an eye patch.)
A better display (or print) would be required to view images at a higher DR and still appear natural as you put it.
The DR of a print would be limited by the INK's ability to obsorb light without reflecting it v.s. it's ability to reflect light, the amount of light present, and your acclimation to the sceen.
e.g. shine an intense lamp on black ink and it no longer looks very black. -or- shine an intese light on some black charcoal and hold it against the night sky for a reference point.
A display capable of high dynamic range would consume a tremendous amount of power and would look impressive.
Your eyes ability to 'see' dynamic range varies. (When you leave a bright area and enter a dark one, your range will be reduced until you acclimate. This is why pirates wore an eye patch.)
Marsu42 said:
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I think the total DR of the human eye is actually over 100 in terms of being able to descriminate luminance from night time shadows, to staring at the sun; but it's reportedly pretty low in a single scene in terms of a fixed pupil dilation and cone/rod saturation.
I think they say 6.5 stops - but that sounds pretty low. Who knows how they come up with it. Maybe they they dilated someone’s eyes and tested it
I think they say 6.5 stops - but that sounds pretty low. Who knows how they come up with it. Maybe they they dilated someone’s eyes and tested it
msm said:
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mukul said:
1. DSLR's rate their Dynamic range, and it varies between sensors.
2. FF / APSC has little to do with DR, pixel size / pitch does however. (compare the 5D III to the 5Ds for example)
3. ..... hi
4. Contrast on AMOLED is excellent due to the min Luminance, DR will be dramatically reduced in a bright room or outside. So much so that LCD will appear to have more DR in the sun, while AMOLED will appear to have subsantially more in a dark room.
5. see Above.
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PropeNonComposMentis said:
Care to elaborate?
Btw: THE MAN IS BACK (or someone else using the name) and strikes with quality content
... I admit I was kinda curious after this thread: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=25697.msg506783#msg506783
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Marsu42 said:PropeNonComposMentis said:
Care to elaborate?
Btw: THE MAN IS BACK (or someone else using the name) and strikes with quality content
Hi Marsu. Good to catch up with you.
Yeah, its me - still.
Before my account, images, and posts, were deleted ~mysteriously~, I had a reasonable long detailed post - explaining how the Eye works, how signals are dealt with by the Optic Nerve, and how the Brain distributes and priorities the information and processing.
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correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think it is possible for the human eye to scan a scene twice without a physical intervention to shield our eyes from the bright spots on one of the passes, and even then, the end result depends on our memory, and not our eyes...
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PropeNonComposMentis said:
Pity ... one might think CR is all about repeating "crop vs full frame" discussions all over again, and then one posts that would be actually interesting gets lost :-o ... but hopefully someone else mentions some more insight into human "dr" w/o me taking the pain to google it myself.
geekpower said:
I don't think so either, at least not with the same iris opening - and if that changes, it's essentially "bracketing".
But unless there's some sci-fi level tech involved, there's little telling what arrives from the optic nerve to the brain and how it gets processed (or not) afterwards. Even the "agreed upon" range of 10-14ev is *huge* so obviously people rather agree to disagree.
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Go GeekPower !geekpower said:
The iris and retina can deal with all that, including your eye-lids. Blood flow to the retina is in a constant state of flux, and can shut-down 1 to 100 rods and cones in less than 1ms. The Cornier can move, and the fluid pressure in the eye can be altered.
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PropeNonComposMentis said:
Normally when people come back from a self imposed hiatus they do so without the attitude.
Anyway, my belief is that I am not "completely incorrect", the retina has a DR capacity of around 6.5 stops; yet we can see detail in scenes with much greater DR than that because our eyes saccade (effectively scan) the scene, in doing so they very quickly adjusts the 'exposure' and our brain builds the complete picture. This is easy to demonstrate, just sit inside during the day and look out a window, now switch back and forth from looking to the inside and outside.
It is worth remembering, the really useful part of the eye, the fovea, only covers around 2.5º of vision, anything wider than that has dropped off the cliff for resolution, DR, colour, etc etc and is either made up by the brain or a reconstruction of something we already saw plus movement sensitive peripheral vision to aid in hunting and prevent being hunted.
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In respect to the DR of the eye, age is certainly a factor. A few years ago three of us were in a car: me in my 60s, a father in his 50s and his son age 13. I was looking for 16th street, and was stopped at a traffic light. I said I cannot see a sign in the intersection. The 50 year old said he could see the sign, but he could not read it. The 13 year old said the sign says 16th street.
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My belief: Eye/brain combination is far more complex and flexible than a sensor. The moment the eye looks at a different object the brain adjusts the focus and brightness quickly. So this combination effectively gives much higher DR than Canon. (Perhaps not Sony). Hahahahahahah.
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