What will be the standard high ISO levels 6 to 8 years from now?

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pedro

Jul 21, 2010
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#1
Hi,
Just picked up the 5D3 this week and got some time to fiddle with it last night.
Upgrading from a 30D I am overwhelmed by the results as I went for the high ISOs 6.4k-102.4k!

a) My first impression:
The 5d3 vs the 30D delievers about 4 stops better high ISOs in RAW, which to me is a huge step!
51.2k without NR still seems to look better than ISO 3200 on a 30D, both exposed to the right.
ISO 12800 is a no brainer now! Even without NR, if well exposed.
Even a 102.4k image is kind of "doable", although with some heavy NR, but I am geared toward Robert Capa and Robert Frank Style photography, so there is no problem with some noise for me. I do everything in DPP and convert b/ws using an old CS2.
The 5D3 is absolutely worth its money from my point of view and a tremendous camera!

Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO... :o
Does all that seem likely according to porbable upcoming sensor tech improvements or is that too much of wishful thinking?

I am not too much into tech. So, what do you think? Any corrections and contrary/more realistic input is highly appreciated.

Anyway, the 5D3 rocks! 8)
Cheers, Pedro
 
#3
Oh yeah. That's a good argument. So, let's hope for a RAW ISO 51.2k/102.4k equivalent to the 25.6k today, within the next eight years. As the 1Dx due to its 18MP stands about 1 stop above the 5D3 at 22MP. This could seem quite likely to be reached. Either way, I love my 5D3. 8)
 
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#4
If we are going to see a revolution in high iso improvement then we are going to need some new sensor technology, especially if we want to see higher megapixel cameras.

With current tech less is better in the MP battle in regards to high iso. Nikon D3s is still the best out there and only has 10mp.

Without a breakthrough in sensor tech we probably will only see marginal improvements in high iso noise performance.

One thing I will add is that it's not all about noise at high iso. Resolution is a big part of it. While my 5diii is not much better at noise then my 5dii or 1div, the detail retention is far better. This allows me to have better noise management when I push the iso.
 
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#5
canon816 said:
If we are going to see a revolution in high iso improvement then we are going to need some new sensor technology, especially if we want to see higher megapixel cameras.

With current tech less is better in the MP battle in regards to high iso. Nikon D3s is still the best out there and only has 10mp.

Without a breakthrough in sensor tech we probably will only see marginal improvements in high iso noise performance.

One thing I will add is that it's not all about noise at high iso. Resolution is a big part of it. While my 5diii is not much better at noise then my 5dii or 1div, the detail retention is far better. This allows me to have better noise management when I push the iso.
Click to expand...
Detail retention is paramount. Good point. BTW My impressions about my first test shots are based on MRAWs. As my PC is kinda old. So I only go for full resolution if needed (e.g. nightsky) Therefore my conclusions might be slightly biased. So we may just hope that within the next two (second seems more likely) Canon deliever new sensor tech. Or at last, an improved design according to the 1Dx sensor.
 
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#7
Don't know what will be the standard for high ISO levels in 6 to 8 years from now ... 8 years from now if we can get ISO 52100 to give the same results as ISO 100 than that wold be AWESOME ... wishful thinking? or possibility? only time will tell.
 
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#8
pedro said:
Hi,
Just picked up the 5D3 this week and got some time to fiddle with it last night.
Upgrading from a 30D I am overwhelmed by the results as I went for the high ISOs 6.4k-102.4k!

a) My first impression:
The 5d3 vs the 30D delievers about 4 stops better high ISOs in RAW, which to me is a huge step!
51.2k without NR still seems to look better than ISO 3200 on a 30D, both exposed to the right.
ISO 12800 is a no brainer now! Even without NR, if well exposed.
Even a 102.4k image is kind of "doable", although with some heavy NR, but I am geared toward Robert Capa and Robert Frank Style photography, so there is no problem with some noise for me. I do everything in DPP and convert b/ws using an old CS2.
The 5D3 is absolutely worth its money from my point of view and a tremendous camera!

Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO... :o
Does all that seem likely according to porbable upcoming sensor tech improvements or is that too much of wishful thinking?

I am not too much into tech. So, what do you think? Any corrections and contrary/more realistic input is highly appreciated.

Anyway, the 5D3 rocks! 8)
Cheers, Pedro
Click to expand...

It seems that any new camera body is two stops better than the previous one, but these "improvements" don't apply additively (e.g. 3 generations of camera doesn't bring a 6 stop improvement).

More realistically, DxOMark shows the 5DIII as about 2 stops better than the 30D. The 5DIII gets an extra 4/3 of a stop because of the larger full frame sensor, so technology has only moved by about 2/3 of a stop.

If it were the case that technology has really improved by 1.5 stops or more, the new APS-C bodies would have better image quality than the 5DC.

So to answer your question, I'd say 6 years from now, another 2/3 of a stop improvement in ISO performance. In terms of how much ISO can be turned up, it wouldn't surprise me if you can more or less turn it up as high as you want.
 
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#11
elflord said:
pedro said:
Hi,
Just picked up the 5D3 this week and got some time to fiddle with it last night.
Upgrading from a 30D I am overwhelmed by the results as I went for the high ISOs 6.4k-102.4k!

a) My first impression:
The 5d3 vs the 30D delievers about 4 stops better high ISOs in RAW, which to me is a huge step!
51.2k without NR still seems to look better than ISO 3200 on a 30D, both exposed to the right.
ISO 12800 is a no brainer now! Even without NR, if well exposed.
Even a 102.4k image is kind of "doable", although with some heavy NR, but I am geared toward Robert Capa and Robert Frank Style photography, so there is no problem with some noise for me. I do everything in DPP and convert b/ws using an old CS2.
The 5D3 is absolutely worth its money from my point of view and a tremendous camera!

Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO... :o
Does all that seem likely according to porbable upcoming sensor tech improvements or is that too much of wishful thinking?

I am not too much into tech. So, what do you think? Any corrections and contrary/more realistic input is highly appreciated.

Anyway, the 5D3 rocks! 8)
Cheers, Pedro
Click to expand...

It seems that any new camera body is two stops better than the previous one, but these "improvements" don't apply additively (e.g. 3 generations of camera doesn't bring a 6 stop improvement).

More realistically, DxOMark shows the 5DIII as about 2 stops better than the 30D. The 5DIII gets an extra 4/3 of a stop because of the larger full frame sensor, so technology has only moved by about 2/3 of a stop.

If it were the case that technology has really improved by 1.5 stops or more, the new APS-C bodies would have better image quality than the 5DC.

So to answer your question, I'd say 6 years from now, another 2/3 of a stop improvement in ISO performance. In terms of how much ISO can be turned up, it wouldn't surprise me if you can more or less turn it up as high as you want.
Click to expand...
So in terms of real improvement, this would at least give us almost ISO 51k equivelant to today's ISO 25.600. This being the new "native" ISO range, 4 to 6 years frow now, would be very impressive! According this pace an 1Dxish body by then will have a probable extension to insane ISO 408k, or as it was stated abe, have nicely improved ISO 204k. Time surely will tell.
 
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#12
pedro said:
So in terms of real improvement, this would at least give us an almost 51kish ISO 25.600. So, this might be declared as the new "native" ISO range, 6 years frow now, which would still be very impressive!
Click to expand...
Despite all our "oh I wish I had that feature" comments, the current technology itself is already awesome ... imagine what an Ansel Adams would have done with the current cameras/lenses ... who knows 6 - 8 years from now there could be some very revolutionary advancements that could very well surprise us.
 
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#13

"Despite all our "oh I wish I had that feature" comments, the current technology itself is already awesome ... imagine what an Ansel Adams would have done with the current cameras/lenses ... who knows 6 - 8 years from now there could be some very revolutionary advancements that could very well surprise us."[/quote]
Yes. And as I stated: I am absolutely crazy, about the capacity of this cam. Due to rain over here, I cannot go out to do nightskyphotography. This is the next step at ISO 6400 and 12800. 8)
 
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#14
Spoiled we are, indeed......

We've got ten stops (or more) of digital ISO range, and we're not satisfied.

What happened to the days of "choose between Panatomic-X through Tri-X", with the odd roll of 2475 thrown in at an amazingly granular ISO of about 1000 (or maybe 1600 pushed a bit). Rating Pan-X at ISO 12-16 was not uncommon to get some decent shadow detail. So, jumping through hoops we had 8 stops of ISO. Normally, we'd be at ISOs (or back then ASAs) of 32, 125, and 400 - thats it.

Sensors will improve. Six years ago todays sensors could not be imagined. They tricked the actual sensors, the tricked the optical component of the sensors (microlenses), and tricked the firmware, and will no doubt trick and tweak and evolve and invent improved technology as time marches on.
 
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#15
@CharlieB: I used to shoot the Tri-X Pan back in 1982 with my contax 139 Quartz. And it was awesome. Always was in the low light-high ISO camp. That's why I went 5D3 now. And that is plenty of camera for me! Yes, we are spoiled, therefore looking back to the filmdays gets things in relation to real world situations...Good point
 
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#16
pedro said:
Yes. And as I stated: I am absolutely crazy, about the capacity of this cam.
Click to expand...
Me too ... my wife keeps telling me that I act like an excited kid when I buy a new camera or lens. I don't think even my kids get as excited as I do when they get new stuff.
What a joy it is to be a photographer (hobbyist or pro), we enjoy what we do ... the images, we take, make us happy ... I think technically we should live longer than the rest because we a happy bunch of people.
But once in a while, the camera/lens manufactures destroy my happiness by introducing some really neat toys, than all of a sudden we are not as happy with our gear, until I get the new toy ... once I order it online, the anxiousness of waiting for that new toy (in my case my 5D MK III) almost kills me ... then I start thinking, maybe I won't live as long as I thought as I did. ;D
 
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#17
CharlieB said:
Spoiled we are, indeed......

We've got ten stops (or more) of digital ISO range, and we're not satisfied.

What happened to the days of "choose between Panatomic-X through Tri-X", with the odd roll of 2475 thrown in at an amazingly granular ISO of about 1000 (or maybe 1600 pushed a bit). Rating Pan-X at ISO 12-16 was not uncommon to get some decent shadow detail. So, jumping through hoops we had 8 stops of ISO. Normally, we'd be at ISOs (or back then ASAs) of 32, 125, and 400 - thats it.

Sensors will improve. Six years ago todays sensors could not be imagined. They tricked the actual sensors, the tricked the optical component of the sensors (microlenses), and tricked the firmware, and will no doubt trick and tweak and evolve and invent improved technology as time marches on.
Click to expand...
I agree
 
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#19
pedro said:
@CharlieB: I used to shoot the Tri-X Pan back in 1982 with my contax 139 Quartz. And it was awesome. Always was in the low light-high ISO camp. That's why I went 5D3 now. And that is plenty of camera for me! Yes, we are spoiled, therefore looking back to the filmdays gets things in relation to real world situations...Good point
Click to expand...
I didn't even hold a camera in 1982 let alone own one ... back in 1982 if someone were to ask me "what is an f stop?", I would've thought it is some new bus top :) ... I actually touched a camera for the first time in 1985 and fell in love. But coming to the point of spoiled, yes we are ... I've seen some of the SLR cameras of 70s & 80s they were small but I haven't heard anyone complain about their size ... now people hold a 650D & D3200 DSLRs and complain that they are "tiny", as if these people are the size of Hagrid of Hogwarts.
 
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