Why does 7D II seem COMPARATIVELY soft with certain lenses?

[geonix]

I firmly believe the engineering on the 7Dii, whether software or hardware, is flawed.

I've had three copies of this camera now and can tell you with great confidence, this camera does not perform to the standards Canon's promotional material suggested.

Did you get all this three cameras from the same source/shop?

 

[Marsu42]

There's nothing handicapping the 7DII in the tests, Marsu42. My 60D is sharper than what is shown, and you can see that for yourself if you choose the 60D as the body in several comparisons.

Ok, I hear ya. As the other participants have mentioned, make sure you account for the 18mp->20mp resolution increase. If it still should be a big difference vs. 60d with proper settings, I'm lost how to explain it.

I was expecting to have a hit rate of maybe 70% for birds in flight but my current ratio is maybe 30%.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the 7d2 (I don't own one), but I'm interested anyway ... did you make sure you experimented enough with the tracking settings? This makes a very large difference on how much keepers you get...

... for example with optimal settings I can crank up my 6d up to a 10% keeper rate with the outer points :->

 

[Sabaki]

There's other videos of Canon pros who intimate that although not identical, the 7Dii's performance is very near to that of the 1DX.

Thus the issue for most of us, we were expecting these "Canon Pro's" not to lie to us.

The 7D II's performance is not 1D caliber.

But it is however the best AF system in a crop body. It is better than the old 7D. It is the best AF system in a body under $2,000.

Really what should we have expected for $1,799?

I would have expected a camera with a better than 10% keeper rate in servo AF mode. This camera is fine for Harry homeowner taking shots of his kids playing in the yard. It is NOT a body I would trust on an expensive trip or assignment. Not in its current state.

The system for all practical purposes is useless if you can't get better than 5 or 10% keeper rate. My daughters t2i does better than that.

Less than 10% keeper rate would be unacceptable surely. Maybe there is some problem with the camera.

I can't say for others but my 7D2 seems to be focusing fine so far - I would place it at par with the 5D3 based on the 100+ shots I took in the evening today.

The story of 10% keeper rate is fairly common, I have to verify that rate.

Here's something I find totally mad. I've been told it's a batch issue, yet! Not every 7Dii that is not performing, exhibits the exact same problems. Some have sharpness issues. Others have AF issues. Others have both. Then there's the issue of focus locking on objects that occupy less than 10% of the frame. Example would be a kingfisher vs heron. Heron is perfect, kingfisher not at all.

Rahul, may I ask what you were shooting?

 

[Sabaki]

I firmly believe the engineering on the 7Dii, whether software or hardware, is flawed.

I've had three copies of this camera now and can tell you with great confidence, this camera does not perform to the standards Canon's promotional material suggested.

Did you get all this three cameras from the same source/shop?

My first camera was from a retailer and the next two directly from Canon.

I've been asked this question before and unless the retailer drops the box or hurts the camera in such a way, we get handed sealed boxes.

 

[Rahul]

There's other videos of Canon pros who intimate that although not identical, the 7Dii's performance is very near to that of the 1DX.

Thus the issue for most of us, we were expecting these "Canon Pro's" not to lie to us.

The 7D II's performance is not 1D caliber.

But it is however the best AF system in a crop body. It is better than the old 7D. It is the best AF system in a body under $2,000.

Really what should we have expected for $1,799?

I would have expected a camera with a better than 10% keeper rate in servo AF mode. This camera is fine for Harry homeowner taking shots of his kids playing in the yard. It is NOT a body I would trust on an expensive trip or assignment. Not in its current state.

The system for all practical purposes is useless if you can't get better than 5 or 10% keeper rate. My daughters t2i does better than that.

Less than 10% keeper rate would be unacceptable surely. Maybe there is some problem with the camera.

I can't say for others but my 7D2 seems to be focusing fine so far - I would place it at par with the 5D3 based on the 100+ shots I took in the evening today.

The story of 10% keeper rate is fairly common, I have to verify that rate.

Here's something I find totally mad. I've been told it's a batch issue, yet! Not every 7Dii that is not performing, exhibits the exact same problems. Some have sharpness issues. Others have AF issues. Others have both. Then there's the issue of focus locking on objects that occupy less than 10% of the frame. Example would be a kingfisher vs heron. Heron is perfect, kingfisher not at all.

Rahul, may I ask what you were shooting?

Hi Sabaki,

I was shooting 3-6 year old kids playing outdoors. The AF tracking worked quite well in AI-Servo. This was my first day with the 7D2 though. I hope this isn't a Jekyll/Hyde camera as some have experienced.

Birding will start tomorrow, weather permitting - it was a very cloudy day today.

Focusing on very small subjects was a problem I faced consistently using the 100-400 V1 on both my 5D3 as well as the 6D - the 100-400 II works way better. What lenses are you using on the 7D2 which are causing this problem?

 

[Sabaki]

I was expecting to have a hit rate of maybe 70% for birds in flight but my current ratio is maybe 30%.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the 7d2 (I don't own one), but I'm interested anyway ... did you make sure you experimented enough with the tracking settings? This makes a very large difference on how much keepers you get...

... for example with optimal settings I can crank up my 6d up to a 10% keeper rate with the outer points :->

Very fair question.

I have invested many hours researching the sliders and fully appreciate that I am yet to nail perfection as far as that goes.
Tracking sensitivity and AF point switch I find less complicated than the acel/decel slider.
Acel/decel is, as far as I understand, critical for subjects that don't move in a straight line. So a bird that banks, dips or dives. Perhaps sudden change in speed.

So I am work +1 now for acel/decel but what I don't know how to measure, is if there is a measure of TOLERANCE if I select +1 but 0 may be marginally better.

That being said, it's not very satisfying to have a series of shots where my focus point is on the bird throughout the burst, yet 1 of 11 shots are sharp. Next attempt, same bird, same settings and then I get 4 of 10.

 

[Sabaki]

There's other videos of Canon pros who intimate that although not identical, the 7Dii's performance is very near to that of the 1DX.

Thus the issue for most of us, we were expecting these "Canon Pro's" not to lie to us.

The 7D II's performance is not 1D caliber.

But it is however the best AF system in a crop body. It is better than the old 7D. It is the best AF system in a body under $2,000.

Really what should we have expected for $1,799?

I would have expected a camera with a better than 10% keeper rate in servo AF mode. This camera is fine for Harry homeowner taking shots of his kids playing in the yard. It is NOT a body I would trust on an expensive trip or assignment. Not in its current state.

The system for all practical purposes is useless if you can't get better than 5 or 10% keeper rate. My daughters t2i does better than that.

Less than 10% keeper rate would be unacceptable surely. Maybe there is some problem with the camera.

I can't say for others but my 7D2 seems to be focusing fine so far - I would place it at par with the 5D3 based on the 100+ shots I took in the evening today.

The story of 10% keeper rate is fairly common, I have to verify that rate.

Here's something I find totally mad. I've been told it's a batch issue, yet! Not every 7Dii that is not performing, exhibits the exact same problems. Some have sharpness issues. Others have AF issues. Others have both. Then there's the issue of focus locking on objects that occupy less than 10% of the frame. Example would be a kingfisher vs heron. Heron is perfect, kingfisher not at all.

Rahul, may I ask what you were shooting?

Hi Sabaki,

I was shooting 3-6 year old kids playing outdoors. The AF tracking worked quite well in AI-Servo. This was my first day with the 7D2 though. I hope this isn't a Jekyll/Hyde camera as some have experienced.

Birding will start tomorrow, weather permitting - it was a very cloudy day today.

Focusing on very small subjects was a problem I faced consistently using the 100-400 V1 on both my 5D3 as well as the 6D. What lenses are you using on the 7D2 which are causing this problem?

Rahul, I really hope yours is 100%

I don't know if you can sense my anger and massive disappointment about my experiences with the 7Dii, it's stolen my desire and enjoy of photography.

Best of luck mate, holding thumbs yours is perfect

 

[Rahul]

I was expecting to have a hit rate of maybe 70% for birds in flight but my current ratio is maybe 30%.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the 7d2 (I don't own one), but I'm interested anyway ... did you make sure you experimented enough with the tracking settings? This makes a very large difference on how much keepers you get...

... for example with optimal settings I can crank up my 6d up to a 10% keeper rate with the outer points :->

Very fair question.

I have invested many hours researching the sliders and fully appreciate that I am yet to nail perfection as far as that goes.
Tracking sensitivity and AF point switch I find less complicated than the acel/decel slider.
Acel/decel is, as far as I understand, critical for subjects that don't move in a straight line. So a bird that banks, dips or dives. Perhaps sudden change in speed.

So I am work +1 now for acel/decel but what I don't know how to measure, is if there is a measure of TOLERANCE if I select +1 but 0 may be marginally better.

That being said, it's not very satisfying to have a series of shots where my focus point is on the bird throughout the burst, yet 1 of 11 shots are sharp. Next attempt, same bird, same settings and then I get 4 of 10.

Are you working with ITR on or off?

 

[geonix]

Rahul, I really hope yours is 100%

I don't know if you can sense my anger and massive disappointment about my experiences with the 7Dii, it's stolen my desire and enjoy of photography.

Best of luck mate, holding thumbs yours is perfect

Don't let this draw you down too much, Sabaki.
As I understood you are not very familiar with the AF cases right? For those and for bird photography I would recommend this video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcsSzhD74Q4
I use almost the same settings. And my keeper rate has increased already significantly just by adopting the back-button focusing.
Maybe you know all this already, then please don't take this as an offending or so.

If your problems really relate to in-camera flaws then there is still a chance that an firmware update would fix them. Always look on the bright site ...

 

[Sabaki]

I was expecting to have a hit rate of maybe 70% for birds in flight but my current ratio is maybe 30%.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the 7d2 (I don't own one), but I'm interested anyway ... did you make sure you experimented enough with the tracking settings? This makes a very large difference on how much keepers you get...

... for example with optimal settings I can crank up my 6d up to a 10% keeper rate with the outer points :->

Very fair question.

I have invested many hours researching the sliders and fully appreciate that I am yet to nail perfection as far as that goes.
Tracking sensitivity and AF point switch I find less complicated than the acel/decel slider.
Acel/decel is, as far as I understand, critical for subjects that don't move in a straight line. So a bird that banks, dips or dives. Perhaps sudden change in speed.

So I am work +1 now for acel/decel but what I don't know how to measure, is if there is a measure of TOLERANCE if I select +1 but 0 may be marginally better.

That being said, it's not very satisfying to have a series of shots where my focus point is on the bird throughout the burst, yet 1 of 11 shots are sharp. Next attempt, same bird, same settings and then I get 4 of 10.

Are you working with ITR on or off?

I leave it on, even if it only works when all 65 points are active

 

[Rahul]

@Sabaki

Don't let this get you down. Since this is the third model you are using, I'd suggest you keep working on it to rule out user error 100%. Otherwise, check the serial nos. of the cameras you have used, they may be from a batch of production which has some issues.

As an extreme way to confirm this could probably be to rent a 7D2 and see if the problems persist.

 

[Rahul]

I was expecting to have a hit rate of maybe 70% for birds in flight but my current ratio is maybe 30%.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the 7d2 (I don't own one), but I'm interested anyway ... did you make sure you experimented enough with the tracking settings? This makes a very large difference on how much keepers you get...

... for example with optimal settings I can crank up my 6d up to a 10% keeper rate with the outer points :->

Very fair question.

I have invested many hours researching the sliders and fully appreciate that I am yet to nail perfection as far as that goes.
Tracking sensitivity and AF point switch I find less complicated than the acel/decel slider.
Acel/decel is, as far as I understand, critical for subjects that don't move in a straight line. So a bird that banks, dips or dives. Perhaps sudden change in speed.

So I am work +1 now for acel/decel but what I don't know how to measure, is if there is a measure of TOLERANCE if I select +1 but 0 may be marginally better.

That being said, it's not very satisfying to have a series of shots where my focus point is on the bird throughout the burst, yet 1 of 11 shots are sharp. Next attempt, same bird, same settings and then I get 4 of 10.

Are you working with ITR on or off?

I leave it on, even if it only works when all 65 points are active

It also works with zone AF and Large zone AF. The camera will then try to track color which may cause issues (nothing is perfect). Try disabling it and see how it goes.

 

[privatebydesign]

The more bodies you go through the less likely it is that it is a camera issue. Think of it like this, if 2% of bodies had an issue out of the box, then to get three bad ones in a row is 0.0008%, or 1 in 125,000. Not saying it couldn't happen, and the 'failure rate' is a complete guess, but is in line with average failure rates of 5% in the first 12 months for consumer electronics.

 

[takesome1]

The more bodies you go through the less likely it is that it is a camera issue. Think of it like this, if 2% of bodies had an issue out of the box, then to get three bad ones in a row is 0.0008%, or 1 in 125,000. Not saying it couldn't happen, and the 'failure rate' is a complete guess, but is in line with average failure rates of 5% in the first 12 months for consumer electronics.

It would be less likely that you received a copy that is not of the same quality as other copies.
It could be a camera issue, it may just generally the 7D II itself.

From most of the complaints I have seen they came from a few different directions;
First is not understanding the camera, and is user error.
Next are those that bought the camera, thought it would focus as well as a 1Dx or 5D III and are disappointed.
I fall in the second group and I see similar complaints from other users with similar background as mine. It leads me to believe it is the 7D II's nature. Firmware may fix some issues but I wouldn't count on it.



Then there are the those who upgraded from a 7D or other crop body. And for them the improvement is great.

 

[privatebydesign]

The more bodies you go through the less likely it is that it is a camera issue. Think of it like this, if 2% of bodies had an issue out of the box, then to get three bad ones in a row is 0.0008%, or 1 in 125,000. Not saying it couldn't happen, and the 'failure rate' is a complete guess, but is in line with average failure rates of 5% in the first 12 months for consumer electronics.

It would be less likely that you received a copy that is not of the same quality as other copies.
It could be a camera issue, it may just generally the 7D II itself.

From most of the complaints I have seen they came from a few different directions;
First is not understanding the camera, and is user error.
Next are those that bought the camera, thought it would focus as well as a 1Dx or 5D III and are disappointed.
I fall in the second group and I see similar complaints from other users with similar background as mine. It leads me to believe it is the 7D II's nature. Firmware may fix some issues but I wouldn't count on it.



Then there are the those who upgraded from a 7D or other crop body. And for them the improvement is great.

There is a fundamental difference between 'issues' that actually need fixing, and peoples over expectations. As you say, people upgrading from a 7D/70D, or earlier, almost universally find the 7D MkII a huge improvement.

 

[takesome1]

The more bodies you go through the less likely it is that it is a camera issue. Think of it like this, if 2% of bodies had an issue out of the box, then to get three bad ones in a row is 0.0008%, or 1 in 125,000. Not saying it couldn't happen, and the 'failure rate' is a complete guess, but is in line with average failure rates of 5% in the first 12 months for consumer electronics.

It would be less likely that you received a copy that is not of the same quality as other copies.
It could be a camera issue, it may just generally the 7D II itself.

From most of the complaints I have seen they came from a few different directions;
First is not understanding the camera, and is user error.
Next are those that bought the camera, thought it would focus as well as a 1Dx or 5D III and are disappointed.
I fall in the second group and I see similar complaints from other users with similar background as mine. It leads me to believe it is the 7D II's nature. Firmware may fix some issues but I wouldn't count on it.



Then there are the those who upgraded from a 7D or other crop body. And for them the improvement is great.

There is a fundamental difference between 'issues' that actually need fixing, and peoples over expectations. As you say, people upgrading from a 7D/70D, or earlier, almost universally find the 7D MkII a huge improvement.

True.

Although the OP didn't say so in the first post, he later said he owned the 5D III and is considering the 7D II.
If he buys it he would be a good candidate for the disappointed category.

 

[Marsu42]

There is a fundamental difference between 'issues' that actually need fixing, and peoples over expectations. As you say, people upgrading from a 7D/70D, or earlier, almost universally find the 7D MkII a huge improvement.

+1 ...

Next are those that bought the camera, thought it would focus as well as a 1Dx or 5D III and are disappointed.
I fall in the second group and I see similar complaints from other users with similar background as mine. It leads me to believe it is the 7D II's nature. Firmware may fix some issues but I wouldn't count on it.

... with the 5d3 Canon made the very unusual move to put their flagship af system into it, though with less features. So you're basically comparing the af system of a $6000 camera system to a $2000 camera system. Yes, I know I'm stretching it a bit, but even though Canon has put a lot of stuff into the 7d2 it's still a c-r-o-p camera and *not* a "mini 1dx".

Of course I (still) cannot tell where your exact problem is, bit this is true nevertheless and if you want to have a taste of a mediocre af system, get a loaned 6d or 5d2 for a weekend then be a happy 7d2 shooter henceforth

 

[takesome1]

... with the 5d3 Canon made the very unusual move to put their flagship af system into it, though with less features. So you're basically comparing the af system of a $6000 camera system to a $2000 camera system. Yes, I know I'm stretching it a bit, but even though Canon has put a lot of stuff into the 7d2 it's still a c-r-o-p camera and *not* a "mini 1dx".

Of course I (still) cannot tell where your exact problem is, bit this is true nevertheless and if you want to have a taste of a mediocre af system, get a loaned 6d or 5d2 for a weekend then be a happy 7d2 shooter henceforth

Why borrow a 5D II when I already own one.

Mini 1Dx was the Canon Hype before the 7D II made it to the shelves.
Early reviewers built this up.
Why shouldn't a person be dissatisfied if a product is over represented.

 

[privatebydesign]

And it is a mini 1DX. It doesn't have the IQ or frame rate as the 1DX either, but people aren't saying that is an issue.

 

[Sabaki]

The more bodies you go through the less likely it is that it is a camera issue. Think of it like this, if 2% of bodies had an issue out of the box, then to get three bad ones in a row is 0.0008%, or 1 in 125,000. Not saying it couldn't happen, and the 'failure rate' is a complete guess, but is in line with average failure rates of 5% in the first 12 months for consumer electronics.

Statistically you're 100% correct and I do wish that when I got my second body, it worked 100%.

Canon Africa's senior technician ran diagnostics on the first two bodies and advised both were problematic.

The diagnostics have been sent to Canon Europe for further analysis. I asked if I could get a written report but that was essentially declined.