Why so much trust in DXO.

[Loswr]

Meaning...it's being bashed by people who haven't used it. Give those 'opinions' the weight they deserve - less than a feather.

It also means that the 'opinions' of the people who like it are worth about as much.

Not if those opinions - positive or negative - are from people who've actually used the camera.

 

[awinphoto]

About everyone who has the 5D MKIII now really loves it (minus maybe 1-2% which always have sth. to complain, but I think that is normal and in some cases these are of ppl with real technical problems on their copy) ... So I don't see many actual owners complaining about the camera and imo there is also not much to complain when I use it and compare it to the MKII it is better in about every regard ...

Well, there is a bit of a bias in there. In general the only people who are going to jump on a high cost new body like the 5D3 are people who are going to be pre-disposed to want it, either though a good matchup of use cases or rabbid fanboyism... and both of those groups are going to be pretty happy with it.

The people who are likely to be unhappy with a 5D3 or match up poorly with the use cases have generally not plunked down the kilobucks needed to buy from this first batch. Thus most of the negative views of the 5D3 are, of course, going to come from people who have not bought one. Would you plop down thousands of dollars on a brand new body that you were not excited about or had reservations?

It's early in the morning here so bear with me, but you are basically saying that the only people who would buy the 5d3 are people "predisposed" to want it and has some level of fanboyism, everyone else either has no opinion or dislikes it? hmm... And i take it you are one of the "few" who hasn't bought the camera? wow that takes balls, gotta say. People have different needs/wants/demands for new bodies... Canon has fit this body into probably 90% of all photographers general wishlist of goodies and specifications and probably 50% of most photographers budgets... It either is going to make you excited and help you achieve photos you have struggled to get in some other body or means, or it's going to excite you and be out of your price range, or it's not going to excite you at all. Doesn't make the camera any better or worse, it's just a tool for you to use... No need to start calling all 5d3 owners fanboys.

 

[Neeneko]

It's early in the morning here so bear with me, but you are basically saying that the only people who would buy the 5d3 are people "predisposed" to want it and has some level of fanboyism, everyone else either has no opinion or dislikes it? hmm... And i take it you are one of the "few" who hasn't bought the camera? wow that takes balls, gotta say. People have different needs/wants/demands for new bodies... Canon has fit this body into probably 90% of all photographers general wishlist of goodies and specifications and probably 50% of most photographers budgets... It either is going to make you excited and help you achieve photos you have struggled to get in some other body or means, or it's going to excite you and be out of your price range, or it's not going to excite you at all. Doesn't make the camera any better or worse, it's just a tool for you to use... No need to start calling all 5d3 owners fanboys.

Nope, not saying that at all ^_^

either though a good matchup of use cases or rabbid fanboyism... and both of those groups are going to be pretty happy with it.

I was trying to say that the two groups who were likely to buy this camera in significant numbers form the first run are either fanboys OR their needs match up well with it. As many have pointed out, it is a fantastic camera for certain segments and those people are likely to give it good reviews because it is geared towards them and thus the features/behavior work really well for them.

There is also the fanboy group that, well, it is a new expensive camera from their favoritest camera company ever so naturally they buy it... and they will not complain because of brand loyalty.

Thus neither early adopter group makes a good sample for evaluating the camera in an objective or general way

And true, I have not bought this camera, but I try to be explicit that I have not bought it because the cost/benefit for my use cases is pretty bad. Then again I am still shooting with a 300D/350D pair so I am very stingy about my cost/benefit analysis.

 

[Loswr]

Thus neither early adopter group makes a good sample for evaluating the camera in an objective or general way

As opposed to people who've never touched the camera, who are ideally suited to objectively evaluate the camera. </sarcasm>

 

[awinphoto]

It's early in the morning here so bear with me, but you are basically saying that the only people who would buy the 5d3 are people "predisposed" to want it and has some level of fanboyism, everyone else either has no opinion or dislikes it? hmm... And i take it you are one of the "few" who hasn't bought the camera? wow that takes balls, gotta say. People have different needs/wants/demands for new bodies... Canon has fit this body into probably 90% of all photographers general wishlist of goodies and specifications and probably 50% of most photographers budgets... It either is going to make you excited and help you achieve photos you have struggled to get in some other body or means, or it's going to excite you and be out of your price range, or it's not going to excite you at all. Doesn't make the camera any better or worse, it's just a tool for you to use... No need to start calling all 5d3 owners fanboys.

Nope, not saying that at all ^_^

either though a good matchup of use cases or rabbid fanboyism... and both of those groups are going to be pretty happy with it.

I was trying to say that the two groups who were likely to buy this camera in significant numbers form the first run are either fanboys OR their needs match up well with it. As many have pointed out, it is a fantastic camera for certain segments and those people are likely to give it good reviews because it is geared towards them and thus the features/behavior work really well for them.

There is also the fanboy group that, well, it is a new expensive camera from their favoritest camera company ever so naturally they buy it... and they will not complain because of brand loyalty.

Thus neither early adopter group makes a good sample for evaluating the camera in an objective or general way

And true, I have not bought this camera, but I try to be explicit that I have not bought it because the cost/benefit for my use cases is pretty bad. Then again I am still shooting with a 300D/350D pair so I am very stingy about my cost/benefit analysis.

Fair enough and thanks for clarifying... I do agree the high cost compared to it's predecessor the 5d2 was shocking but in the end, the 5d2, under demanding situations falls short and the 7d, while an incredible body and AF system, leaves some to be desired once you crank up the ISO beyond 1000. The 5d3 is, as you put it, a good fit, for me and from what I can gather a good chunk of 5d2 users. I've talked to 5d3 pro shooters who even said they are using that over their 1ds 3 bodies... It's not for everyone for various reasons, but it's still an incredible body.

 

[Neeneko]

As opposed to people who've never touched the camera, who are ideally suited to objectively evaluate the camera. </sarcasm>

Ahm, which part of 'also' did you not understand?
The problem is, the camera has not been around long enough for a usefully unbias group outside professional reviewers, who on the whole have been mixed with some liking the camera and some not.

However, I would say that people who have not used the camera are in a better position to say how well it meets their needs then early adopters who buy the camera based off their needs. Plus, you have the problem that the early adopters are heavily biased towards being for the camera while people who are not using it run a more neutral range, and are much less defensive about their lack of interest.

 

[Neeneko]

Fair enough and thanks for clarifying...

*nods* a lot of tone gets lost in text, and I really am not trying to communicate that I think poorly of the 5D3 or its users.

I do agree the high cost compared to it's predecessor the 5d2 was shocking but in the end, the 5d2, under demanding situations falls short and the 7d, while an incredible body and AF system, leaves some to be desired once you crank up the ISO beyond 1000. The 5d3 is, as you put it, a good fit, for me and from what I can gather a good chunk of 5d2 users. I've talked to 5d3 pro shooters who even said they are using that over their 1ds 3 bodies... It's not for everyone for various reasons, but it's still an incredible body.

I think this cuts to why some people are reacting so poorly to it, as you say, it is a great upgrade to the 5D2 and excels at the things the 5D2 was used for... but Canon is kinda positioning it as a catch all (though part of that is due to how they release cameras, staggering models like they do has this historic problem, which is why most other industries have stopped doing it) thus for people whom the 5D2 was not geared towards are kinda grumpy.

I think one of the marketing problems is that the 5D2 was such a runaway success that Canon is now treating that user segment as the primary or only one, producing two new bodies that fit that case plus, it could be argued, starting a whole new line of video cameras designed to be an upgrade path for the video segment of that group. So a non-trivial number of Canon users are going 'but.. I wasn't a 5D2 user' and thus if the 5D3 is positioned as the catch-all replacement then, well people are going to point out areas where it fails at that role.

Hopefully within the next year Canon will release some complementing bodies in the mid-high range and I imagine much of this drama will die away. And in fantasy land they will someday learn to release the whole range at once instead of this mess they do now.

 

[awinphoto]

Fair enough and thanks for clarifying...

*nods* a lot of tone gets lost in text, and I really am not trying to communicate that I think poorly of the 5D3 or its users.

I do agree the high cost compared to it's predecessor the 5d2 was shocking but in the end, the 5d2, under demanding situations falls short and the 7d, while an incredible body and AF system, leaves some to be desired once you crank up the ISO beyond 1000. The 5d3 is, as you put it, a good fit, for me and from what I can gather a good chunk of 5d2 users. I've talked to 5d3 pro shooters who even said they are using that over their 1ds 3 bodies... It's not for everyone for various reasons, but it's still an incredible body.

I think this cuts to why some people are reacting so poorly to it, as you say, it is a great upgrade to the 5D2 and excels at the things the 5D2 was used for... but Canon is kinda positioning it as a catch all (though part of that is due to how they release cameras, staggering models like they do has this historic problem, which is why most other industries have stopped doing it) thus for people whom the 5D2 was not geared towards are kinda grumpy.

I think one of the marketing problems is that the 5D2 was such a runaway success that Canon is now treating that user segment as the primary or only one, producing two new bodies that fit that case plus, it could be argued, starting a whole new line of video cameras designed to be an upgrade path for the video segment of that group. So a non-trivial number of Canon users are going 'but.. I wasn't a 5D2 user' and thus if the 5D3 is positioned as the catch-all replacement then, well people are going to point out areas where it fails at that role.

Hopefully within the next year Canon will release some complementing bodies in the mid-high range and I imagine much of this drama will die away. And in fantasy land they will someday learn to release the whole range at once instead of this mess they do now.

I fully get what your saying about the staggering body announcements/releases and it's very hard to get excited as things are constantly coming out at different times and it's hard to see where everything relates to each other, and much like the 5d3, there are rumors/speculation of a high MP camera on the horizon and the 7d2, 70D, rebels are speculated to be in the foreseeable future...

I also get how you say that if you aren't in a position to get the 5d3, it's easy to be more critical/objective at times. Some will say it's more class envy than objective, but that's neither here or there. When the 5d2 first came out, i wanted that body so bad, but a few big client contracts didn't fall through the way i was hoping and I had a baby on the way and in the end, there was only the 50D and the 5d2 at the time and I couldn't justify the 5d2 so I got the 50D and hated every minute i had with it. During that time, it could be objection, could be envy, could be both, but image quality, especially all the soft images posted on the web became even more blaring to me, all the negative features stood out like sore thumbs... The 7D came out, ditched the 50D as quickly as possible and got the 7D and fell in love with it's capabilities. It became even more easier to be more critical of the 5d2... Better body, AF, features, video, etc... Eventually I was able to acquire the 5d2 as an additional body but never fell in love with it... It was good and never had issue with the image quality, but in the end, to me, a merger of those two would be my perfect camera. That's what canon signed, sealed, and delivered to me and I couldn't be more thrilled.

Those who already bought the camera are financially tied to said equipment and so I can see how you say it could be easy to be more subjective, but then in the end, those who are using it on a daily basis would have the best vantage point as to what the camera is capable of and dissecting to the root of any "issues" within the camera than those who are sitting on the sidelines who realize if they could have had the camera, they would.

 

[bycostello]

i don't care about mindless comparisons.... i just know the mk1 and mk2 70-200 are great lenses i have and have had both...

 

[Loswr]

However, I would say that people who have not used the camera are in a better position to say how well it meets their needs then early adopters who buy the camera based off their needs.

People who have not used the camera are in absolutely no position to say how well it meets their needs. They are only in a position to speculate how well said camera might possibly maybe meet their needs or not, were they actually to use it.

People who have actually used the camera are in a position to say how well it is meeting their needs, or not, from direct actual experience.

Tell you what, I'll give you a bunch of links to web pages and reviews of MRI scanners in the 7T to 11T range, you go read up on them on the internet and then critically evaluate which would best meet my needs. Wait, you don't have any need for an MRI? That's ok - feel free to review them, and tell us all that Bruker is way better than Varian based on what you've read on the internet, or vice versa. I'll give that 'review' the same credence that I give to most of the, ummm, 'information' being posted about the 5DIII.

I also get how you say that if you aren't in a position to get the 5d3, it's easy to be more critical/objective at times. Some will say it's more class envy than objective, but that's neither here or there.

I sort of get it, but not really. I can critically evaluate MRIs because I've used them. Even so, I refrain on commenting on the performance or suitability of a new model until I've tried it out, technical comments and clarifications notwithstanding.

If you haven't used a product, you are in a position to do your research and reach a personal conclusion. You are in a position to share your viewpoint, and the internet makes that very easy - everyone gets their own personal soapbox, and even idiots can spout off and sound like they know what they're talking about (even if their story changes from week to week). But you are not necessarily in a position to be more objective. I'll certainly acknowledge that having made a purchase, there's a tendency to want to justify that purchase, especially a large purchase. But someone who buys a product with a certain set of expectations is the person best-qualified to judge if that product meets those expectations.

 

[awinphoto]

I also get how you say that if you aren't in a position to get the 5d3, it's easy to be more critical/objective at times. Some will say it's more class envy than objective, but that's neither here or there.

I sort of get it, but not really. I can critically evaluate MRIs because I've used them. Even so, I refrain on commenting on the performance or suitability of a new model until I've tried it out, technical comments and clarifications notwithstanding.

If you haven't used a product, you are in a position to do your research and reach a personal conclusion. You are in a position to share your viewpoint, and the internet makes that very easy - everyone gets their own personal soapbox, and even idiots can spout off and sound like they know what they're talking about (even if their story changes from week to week). But you are not necessarily in a position to be more objective. I'll certainly acknowledge that having made a purchase, there's a tendency to want to justify that purchase, especially a large purchase. But someone who buys a product with a certain set of expectations is the person best-qualified to judge if that product meets those expectations.

Objectivity may be harder and harder to find my friend as everyone can only speak from their own experiences and POV... It seems the only way to really get objective is 3rd party independent companies but then again depending on their results, pattern of said results, and reliability of results, even they can be said they are biased and subjective, see DxO and DPR for examples. In my personal story/experience I mentioned at the time I thought I was being pretty objective but then again it could be clouded by the fact at the time I couldn't get one and also could be viewed, depending how's considering my "objective" POV as either envy by those who disagree or right on by those who agree...

I do agree that people who use it, work with it, and give it the honest shot have the most accurate POV because they know first hand. If i have questions about being a pilot, I ask a pilot, not a person with a flight simulator on an ipad. Then again, those who dont have the camera can look at the specs and determine, given their experience, needs, and wants, and can come to a generalized conclusion if it will work for them or not. Sometimes if they can keep their emotions out of it and any disappointment/envy/whatever in check, they can give honest and objective Viewpoints but with the internet and the anonymous nature of forums, its a task that gets harder and harder to do by many people.

 

[AmbientLight]

I do like your post, but in my humble opinion there is one part wrong within it. You cannot fully trust just any company to be an impartial 3rd party. Trust must be earned. It is not gained by marketing statements.

If there are multiple occasions of a self-proclaimed independent tester delivering results matching actual real life experience, we can begin to trust them to a certain extend. Of course in case someone doesn't use the product they have tested, that one will never know.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

But I really don't see the relevance of this. Again, I believe this is just a data dredging exercise that Canon fans have undertaken because they are unhappy with the 5DIII test scores. The complaint is misdirected -- they should be complaining to Canon.

As far as I can see this here is about DXO and how they do their tests (number ratings) and not limited to the academic poor sensor quality of the 5d MKIII... I guess there are 3-4 other threads in this forum here parallel to this one where people who never used the MK III on their own are doing this... Btw I own both the MKII and MK III so I can at least tell that the MKIII is much better IQ wise... and I have also tested most of lenses myself so I know that the 300mm f2.8 II is the about the highest resolving lens I have ever seen.

I absolutely agree with you here on the 5D2 vs. 5D3. What I find funny/sad is how many people there are who prefer to trust a number vs. reviews from people who have actually used both cameras. DXO is a joke. They are like that computer in Hitchhiker's Galaxy that spits out the number 42.

many people have tested both and surprise, surprise, they get the same dynamic range findings as DxO did, so no, DxO sensor tests are not a joke (maybe their lens tests though ;D)

 

[kirispupis]

But I really don't see the relevance of this. Again, I believe this is just a data dredging exercise that Canon fans have undertaken because they are unhappy with the 5DIII test scores. The complaint is misdirected -- they should be complaining to Canon.

As far as I can see this here is about DXO and how they do their tests (number ratings) and not limited to the academic poor sensor quality of the 5d MKIII... I guess there are 3-4 other threads in this forum here parallel to this one where people who never used the MK III on their own are doing this... Btw I own both the MKII and MK III so I can at least tell that the MKIII is much better IQ wise... and I have also tested most of lenses myself so I know that the 300mm f2.8 II is the about the highest resolving lens I have ever seen.

I absolutely agree with you here on the 5D2 vs. 5D3. What I find funny/sad is how many people there are who prefer to trust a number vs. reviews from people who have actually used both cameras. DXO is a joke. They are like that computer in Hitchhiker's Galaxy that spits out the number 42.

many people have tested both and surprise, surprise, they get the same dynamic range findings as DxO did, so no, DxO sensor tests are not a joke (maybe their lens tests though ;D)

Really? Where are these people? Are they Oompa Loompas or real people?

Of the folks here who owned a 5D2 and now have a 5D3, how many agree with DXO that the 5D3 is only marginally better for high ISO? Of those who have a 1D4 and a 5D2, how many agree with DXO that the 5D2 has better high ISO (admittedly I do not own a 1D4 but everyone I know who owns both cameras believes the 1D4 is a bit better).

 

[psolberg]

But I really don't see the relevance of this. Again, I believe this is just a data dredging exercise that Canon fans have undertaken because they are unhappy with the 5DIII test scores. The complaint is misdirected -- they should be complaining to Canon.

As far as I can see this here is about DXO and how they do their tests (number ratings) and not limited to the academic poor sensor quality of the 5d MKIII... I guess there are 3-4 other threads in this forum here parallel to this one where people who never used the MK III on their own are doing this... Btw I own both the MKII and MK III so I can at least tell that the MKIII is much better IQ wise... and I have also tested most of lenses myself so I know that the 300mm f2.8 II is the about the highest resolving lens I have ever seen.

I absolutely agree with you here on the 5D2 vs. 5D3. What I find funny/sad is how many people there are who prefer to trust a number vs. reviews from people who have actually used both cameras. DXO is a joke. They are like that computer in Hitchhiker's Galaxy that spits out the number 42.

many people have tested both and surprise, surprise, they get the same dynamic range findings as DxO did, so no, DxO sensor tests are not a joke (maybe their lens tests though ;D)

Really? Where are these people? Are they Oompa Loompas or real people?

Of the folks here who owned a 5D2 and now have a 5D3, how many agree with DXO that the 5D3 is only marginally better for high ISO? Of those who have a 1D4 and a 5D2, how many agree with DXO that the 5D2 has better high ISO (admittedly I do not own a 1D4 but everyone I know who owns both cameras believes the 1D4 is a bit better).

He's not an oompa loopa but one of the most well known reviewers in the world that shoots many systems.
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120419_2-Canon5DM3-dxomark.html

even diehard canon shooters are noticing terrible examples of low ISO noise (and please don't acuse the guy of bias, he shoots canon)
http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

then there is the ISO test done properly (resampled as they would be on a print, not using crops)
http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d800-review#iso_performance

seriously. the debate is over. It is time to stop the denial and go out and shoot. What's the point of dwelling on the issue.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

But I really don't see the relevance of this. Again, I believe this is just a data dredging exercise that Canon fans have undertaken because they are unhappy with the 5DIII test scores. The complaint is misdirected -- they should be complaining to Canon.

As far as I can see this here is about DXO and how they do their tests (number ratings) and not limited to the academic poor sensor quality of the 5d MKIII... I guess there are 3-4 other threads in this forum here parallel to this one where people who never used the MK III on their own are doing this... Btw I own both the MKII and MK III so I can at least tell that the MKIII is much better IQ wise... and I have also tested most of lenses myself so I know that the 300mm f2.8 II is the about the highest resolving lens I have ever seen.

I absolutely agree with you here on the 5D2 vs. 5D3. What I find funny/sad is how many people there are who prefer to trust a number vs. reviews from people who have actually used both cameras. DXO is a joke. They are like that computer in Hitchhiker's Galaxy that spits out the number 42.

many people have tested both and surprise, surprise, they get the same dynamic range findings as DxO did, so no, DxO sensor tests are not a joke (maybe their lens tests though ;D)

Really? Where are these people? Are they Oompa Loompas or real people?

Of the folks here who owned a 5D2 and now have a 5D3, how many agree with DXO that the 5D3 is only marginally better for high ISO? Of those who have a 1D4 and a 5D2, how many agree with DXO that the 5D2 has better high ISO (admittedly I do not own a 1D4 but everyone I know who owns both cameras believes the 1D4 is a bit better).

Who was talking high ISO? It's low ISO where DxO shows the D800 spanking the 5D3.

The 5D3 is around 1/2-2/3rds stop better SNR than the 5D2, more toward the 2/3rds side. Not huge but enough to notice, especially at ISO6400+ or in scenes with tons of near black where the nicer high iso banding helps.

You don't have to own the cameras to take a white and black frame (I've shot Canon since the EOS 650, BTW, and do own the 5D2 and since I just found a special $3100 deal on the 5D3 I might even get tempted to just stick one more round rather than $ hassle to switch now, but even if I do stay, I will switch if the 5D4 also has left-in-the-dust 2007 levels of dynamic range).

I matched DxO's results exactly for ISO100 DR in my tests and so have a number of others, all independently, on DPR and elsewhere. A well respected landscape photographer and long time Canon user posted a D800/5D3 review and notice behavior that exactly matched the DxO measurements, as have some others.

Just deal with the fact that they have done a single thing since 2007 to improve low ISO photography.

If you don't all try to hide that fact away then maybe the 5D4 won't have the same problem, if you do then maybe it will and I'd rather not have to switch over to Nikon, but if the next gen after the 2012 release don't show improvements here, sadly, I finally will. I seriously thought about it for the first time, this time, and I suppose still could.