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Raw Video
Lots going on a WPPI, not too much for the folks seeking a new camera and lenses. The following information could be of value to some.
A source told me that canon have indeed created a raw video option for HDSLR's. It will utilize the HDMI port on the cameras to output full uncompressed HD content for recording on an external device. Apparently the current 720P output is limited by firmware not hardware so all they need to do is change this setting in the firmware.
The source would not confirm if this was coming to the 5D2 directly. However, the source did make clear to me that they knew nothing of a 1DS4. I was also told that this firmware had been tested on location.
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YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT SOMETHING TO TIE MY SHOELACES!!!! DAMMIT CANON WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!! AND WHERE’S MY LENS THERMOS THING?????
Hopefully they will make a 7D update aswell in the near future.
I realy want that top limit auto ISO thingy.
That might make a lot of film makers happy, but still won’t remove many oof the limitations that are there by hardware, like the jello effect. I wonder if the video will be much better due to the removal of the compression artifacts.
Raw conversion software will be needed as well, but since its already developed and in the camera, it just needs repackaging into mac/pc format along with user selected compression.
wow, that is pretty big… This could get around the 4GB file size limit of FAT32, no? Might open the 5D Mark II to even more markets that need/want 1080p video.
RAW video, real RAW video ? I mean real 4:4:4 ?
Or you think this will be just uncompressed video but still with sub-sampling 4:2:0 ?
Uncompressed video does not have a color space of 4.2.0. Uncompressed video is 4.2.2 or 4.4.4
I guess Canon will define what RAW is but it seems it’s just the ability to output an uncompressed video (usually 4.2.2) from the HDMI port. Now that’s grand.
If they actually so create a RAW video format, well that’s a whole magnitude better.
I hope this is true.
To Xto:
If you’re saying that you want a world-class auto-ISO implementation on both the 7D and 5DMkII, then I whole heartedly agree.
If Canon develops something like a grip module that utilizes the HDMI port with an additional firmware upgrade and records to removable media within the grip module, that would be the dog’s bollocks! An all-in-one RAW recording solution. Fantastic.
The Canon HV20 could do this two and a half years ago.
Not just that, my car is old in the winter. Especially when it is snowing out. I just don’t understand Canon, why can’t you make my life perfect???
I can easily see this as being a point of differentiation for the 1D series – I am doubtful that Canon will apply this to the 5D mk II. Magic Lantern would probably have to step up to the plate here.
No way, not a chance on the current DSLRs. I’d be shocked if RAW video it came to the 1Ds. Maybe the 5D3 will have this.
“Apparently the current 720P output is limited by firmware not hardware so all they need to do is change this setting in the firmware.
The source would not confirm if this was coming to the 5D2 directly.”
What output has 5D currently? I have seen both 720p and 1080i stated (during Live View preview and playback) and 480p while recording. Why would it do 720p, since it doesn’t even offer this resolution for recording?
It would actually be nice if Canon would fix the size and aspect changes for monitoring – that would be very usefull on external monitor for focusing. Current 480p is actually a 16:9 window inside 4:3 frame, so it has even less resolution than the on-camera LCD.
The 5DMarkII Team never spotted that comming :)
The 5DMk2 like fine wine certainly gets better with age.
Yes, but the next limit is the 30 minute one, which was imposed by Canon to avoid paying EU fees associated with video recorders.
very very good question my friend….
Well, in fact Canon did start this process of RAW output on the 5D Mark II around mid 2009.
If they will include it or not on the 5D2, that’s something we still don’t know.
Maybe, as you say, they will keep it for the 1D line, even being able to apply to the 5D2 too.
There is a big chance that the top DSLRs get the “most pro” features, and the 5D2 is very near to the 1D because its huge adoption and its Full Frame sensor. So there is a chance.
Especially considering it will require a dedicated device to record the RAW output, and since 5D Mark II amount of users is HUGE compared to the zero (until now) of 1Ds Mark IV, Canon would make lot of money selling that device to 5D Mark II owners.
5D Mark II has HUGE potential, as described in:
http://5dmark2.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/the-hidden-potential-of-5d-mark-ii/
Let’s hope Canon realize the potential of releasing Firmware Updates as a new way of making business:
http://5dmark2.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/canon-firmware-updates/
This doesn’t mean to discourage Canon developing new cameras at all.
What we try to point out is the huge benefit of keep improving a(some) camera(s) which is(are) ALREADY designed and in production, so extending the profit A LOT.
was that english?
5DM2 is very cheap wine my friend.
1DsM4 will be a wine reserve.
P.S.: AutoISO limits and some other Still fixes and improvements are requested for the 5D Mark II since day 1 (that means more than 1 year old).
We still think 5D Mark II can get further updates. Check the above links for better understanding.
Wote me in. Top limit ISO firmware update would bee great.
Thanks for getting my hopes up in several previous posts about the release of a new body of March 9th. You obviously have a ways to go before we start believing that you are a true ‘insider’ like you want us to believe.
if it is ajust a system to capture live view mode, via HDMI and an external unit… then it is only limited to the storage you are feeding the HDMI to.
It would not affect that tax.
dosen’t sound like this is credible. RAW is the “data” off the sensor. HDMI is a video format. So the question is what chip inside the camera is processing the 5K RAW data into a 1080p file size. That is serious computing power need to resize to video. And what HDMI device records RAW video. Again its a long way form 5k RAW sensor data to 1080p anything.
My bet is we will see RAW video as a feature in future cameras.
So we will have uncompressed 422 moiré and aliasing ! the compression probably blurs
those problems, it’s going to be more obvious … and if they use only the 720P, it’s worse than 1080 … I tried today my new lens, the 24TSII with 720P for slomo, the lens is so sharp than even the sand get moiré … I assume that the result will be better with a cheap kit lens. Choice is going to be : uncompressed with bad lens or mp4 with L’s ! that’s not a good choice for Canon business …
You don’t read well enough what we post. Review our posts and you will understand.
We don’t want anyone to “believe” us, we just share some unofficial information, that’s all. We don’t want followers at all either.
You can believe or not, it doesn’t change anything.
Regarding March 9th, we said “we’ve been told to watch”, and we also clearly said that Canon has been making changes in last moment to their schedule (and also firmware versions), especially related to the 5D Mark II (delayed a lot), so it’s not a surprise at all.
Anyway, March didn’t finish, you still have a chance.
Regarding firmware 2.0.3 being available at Canon centers, it’s completely true and almost obvious now (but you only remember what you don’t like :) )
As reported before the “official” announcement (maybe most readers didn’t take care of that):
http://5dmark2.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/new-firmware-at-tech-service-centers/
If someone has a very good friend at a Canon center, you have greater chances to get the firmware before March 17th. If not, just wait 1 more week.
since day 1…! :-(
If this is just about feeding uncompressed data to the HDMI output, then you’ll get the standard HDMI YCbCr signal which is probably 4:2:2, and you’ll be able to capture it on PC easily with a 200$ card like this one :
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
But I won’t get too excited about 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 as I guess the internal intermediate format provided by the hardware after the sensor must be 4:2:0 to feed the internal h264 encoder.
I don’t see how they would “create a new RAW format” as it couldn’t be stored on the CompactFlash because of the write speeds.
Clean uncompressed signal out of the HDMI makes a lot of sense and probably only costs Canon a firmware update.
Nice !
I am in real need for a Coffee reheater for outdoor stakeouts. Nikon has it already… I AM SWITCHING! I am really disappointed and embarrassed for Canon.
I’m strongly under the impression the 5D2 imager can clock off information at 24MHz off its bus(es). This doesn’t bode well when trying to clock off 3x1920x1080 pixels 30 times per second. I expect subsampling – at the source (again).
You won’t get the full 14 bits through standard HDMI, of course.
Like RAW photos, the allure of uncompressed video is the extent to which it can be manipulated or processed. Moire can be reduced after the fact. Aliasing is a fact of life when shooting video or film. Plan for it to minimize it, or use it to your advantage if you can… or like you said, shoot VGA h264 with the TS-E :)
You do know there are PCI cards for HDMI input? I’ve even seen some post of people rigging up portable units with them. Again, the HV20, a three year old camcorder from Canon can output full 1080p video, w/o HDV compression, via HDMI.
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/06/29/basic-canon-hv20hv30-knowledge/
And will cost a comparable amount
In my opinion even the H264-files are pretty good. The bit rate is higher than on a EX1 oder EX3. The only thing is the row skipping. In some situations that matter. But i dont think that it will be raw or sraw. The hdmi is limited in the kinds of signal you can transmit. I think a raw file does not fit in the specifications of hdmi. And you would need a special software to debayer the raw.
Greetings from Germany
I dont think this refers to RAW as in still RAW images, I would assume it refers to uncompressed 1080p data transmited via the HDMI port.
Pet Peeve:
Canon “have” is not proper English. The proper way to say it is Canon HAS. Canon as a company is singular.
downstream is the key my friend.
HV20 to 10880p is direct to hdmi
5dm2 to 1080p need a downstream conversion, very heavy, very difficult….
English is not the first language for many of the people that contribute to this blog. I am offended as an American that you expect everyone that speaks English to have perfect grammar.
You knew exactly what they were trying to convey, so there’s no need to be a jerk about it.
I think what they might be talking about is clean (i.e. no overlays) uncompressed, 1920 x 1080 video coming from the HDMI port.
Not RAW data as such.
This would be big and would make a lot of people happy.
All you would need then is a recorder like a Convergent Design Nano Flash and you are very much in business.
The people asking about 4:4:4.
I don’t think HDMI can even support RGB 4:4:4?
What do you mean, can’t you do what the HV20 does, and output a 1080p signal via HDMI from the 5D mk II and record this?
yes, I like turtles too.
have/has – if only the people who pick these nits would bother to notice that either usage might be just fine depending on where you live :-)
Yet another example of US/UK divided by a common language.
I’m sometimes minded to alternate my usage just to annoy the pedants. Then again we seem to have the grammar police on either side of the Atlantic, they just don’t agree what’s correct :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
Wiki says it can, but we all know can be wrong. Still, this is what it says ” sRGB 4:4:4 (8–16 bits per component),”
Just speculating, but you would think that Canon are making this move to directly compete with Jim and the gang over at RED. In that line of thinking, they would need to have developed some kind of RAW Codec, with all the bells and whistles we have come to expect from true RAW video (more latitude/headroom etc.)
Uncompressed video out of the 5DMKII would be cool, but unless it’s going to offer something similar to REDCode RAW, it’s hardly going to make as big a splash as people might think in the production industry.
Either way I can’t wait to see how it pans out. Exciting times!
Sorry Frank,
HDMI is not a video format.
It’s a format for transferring digital data between devices much like USB, although HDMI was designed with the requirements of HD digital video from the beginning, and has been expanded to include 1080P, deep color & multi ch audio.
RAW could be anything from unaltered data directly from the sensor, to, an uncompressed version of what’s recorded to the CF card.
And still sRGB is gamma-compressed and far from the actual sensor data (5616×3744 CFA).
As Mike said, “RAW” is not the proper term.
I believe 1.3 provides support for 4:4:4
yeah the REAL key will be when the digic V cameras come out and the scaling and resampling can been done properly, THEN the image quality will take a quantum leap, in-cam compressed video from that would be worlds higher quality than uncompressed out from of a digic iv camera.
my 24 1.4 II can show some pretty horrible artifacts at times if it is in good focus, small lights (that are stable) flicker on an odd, fine brances on trees and piles of leaves on the ground shimmer and jump, rippled on water can do nasty things and break into odd colors
plenty of times the quality is awesome but sometimes it’s pretty brutal
raw video option will come, but I think just for the rich guys who can afford the new 1ds. BTW Tramm Hudson just did it again, check this video: http://vimeo.com/10049965
If you don’t have the faintest idea what is happening, which you clearly don’t, then don’t get annoyed at people when they point it out.
You are officially a bore.
Yes they did, but if they had told you they wouldn’t have been allowed to walk the dog of the cleaner at Canon HQ anymore. Unfortunately they think the cleaner has an idea of what is going on………..
If you think that, just skip our posts and you’ll be happy. Very easy.
Sounds cool! If the 5d MarkII would require us to buy an extra accessory to give it more horse-power to enable us to shoot RAW-HD, I do NOT mind at all! =)
by the fact they mixed RAW and uncompressed shows this is most likely bs. I think canon save something for the 5Dmk3 or new 1Ds
The 5DMk2 is the real vintage, the finest IQ and best video features apart from 60fps. It will most likely get the RAW firmware for good reasons.
1 Affordability. Canon don’t want to market exclusively for the 1D that is pricing the feature out of the market.
2. Enhance video appeals to high end hobbyist less for pro still shooters who dont take into PS RAW images and now RAW videos.
3. Canon has recently stated the 5DMk2 is the HD dSLR of choice which says a lot about their intention.
4. If RAW video firmware is not out for 5DMk2 it will most certainly be for 5DMk3.
I do, unless I want an idea of what absolutely will not be happening (60fps, 24-85 IS, massive price drops, or when it won’t happen (9th).
Agree completely.
Get an unofficial version and you’ll get 720p, but we don’t have anything to do with you, your camera nor anything related. Neither if your dog decides to bit you because of that.
I knew that but couldn’t tell you. But if you have a very good friend, then you’ve got one more than me. Can we share them? I’ll tell you what the cleaner told me.
If anyone is still interested, some of you guys need to consider the underlining problems with any kind of recording out of the 5D MK II:
1) Line skipping (which causes aliasing) will not go away regardless of the recording quality. And without major hardware / software improvements, this can’t be fixed.
2) The Analogue-To-Digital conversion in the camera will limit it to outputting a 8-bit 4:2:2 signal. New hardware is needed to make a 10-bit 4:4:4 signal available. And I doubt that the current HDMI port is up to the 1.3 spec as well.
3) The hardware is also limiting in terms of recording a TRUE RAW file over HDMI or on a CF Card; however, there may be a flavor of RAW (like sRAW or something similar to RED) that could be pushed over the HDMI or CF Slot.
4) Since the camera is limited to the maximum 8-bit 4:2:2 signal coming off the chip, it may be best if Canon finds a way to increase the bit rate (to 50+ Mb/s) to simply give a cleaner signal going to CF card. A high bit rate H.264 will look great and can be tanscoded into a 10-bit Codec for editing.
Or Not…
So let me guess, you’re a RED fan right?
I still love the image quality that this camera is giving, your numbers won’t change anything. IMO Canon is still the king of DSLRs. Or not…
The situation is very strange … It’s like Canon and us, customers are playing a game where everybody pretend to be pioneers of the digital cinema. So we have super lenses, impressive camera bodies, shiny gizmos (Zacuto’s and others) and now perhaps raw recording capabilities, a whole bunch of expensive toys, like the mecano I played with when I was a kid … But there is something wrong, the reason to use all that should be the search of superb shots for storytelling … those shots are not there because of the trick Canon had to implement to be able to sell a photographic camera to wannabe moviemakers : the line skipping. The key feature is just missing : delivering decent quality pictures …
This morning I had to film kids playing in a sandbox and I had to compose my shots to avoid the moiré caused by the sand, the aliasing caused by the old mansion in the background. At the end, instead of having the kids in situation, in one of the nicest place of Paris, I have some very nice close-shots of kids faces with everything else blurred out, no usable wide shots … It’s like attempting to write a novel with a pen that can only write 10 letters from the alphabet …
So this raw thing is just a part of this joke that may end when everyone will consider that they want something more versatile than a bokeh-camera to tell stories … can not film everything as if it were pack shots …
I agree with the last reply. I am not a “Red Fan,” nor a “Canon Fan” or a “Nikon Fan” for that matter.
The 5D is a great stills camera that can be a great cinema camera “some of the time.”
And I intend to use it to shoot a feature in about 3 months. But the headache of “managing” what is shot to avoid aliasing = Compromise.
And when I get into post, having a compressed 8 bit image will limit my color options in a major way.
It’s still the smallest / cheapest alternative to Film or RED. But it ain’t like giving us RAW will fix the major problems with this camera. It will help mostly with quality of image and post for color work. Not aliasing or jello-cam.
I agree, but remember 10 years ago was just a dream to have a camera with the capabilities, HD, DOF, low light performance, etc.
Now we have it, just for a fraction of the real cost (past). I would suggest you that deal with the limitations and worry more about the content of your features. I haven’t yet recall a single time going to a movie, and criticise it because of aliasing or moire, IMO 99% of the people would love a beautiful story with just decent Image Quality.
i’m happy that there are a lot of people that don’t think like you…
I work in postproduction and we put a lot of effort in providing the best possible quality. visualisation is an important part of storytelling, and i can tell you for a fact that if you have a lot of aliasing on a cinemascreen, people will get distracted from the “story”. if you don’t do good, consistant colourgrading, editing,… people will get distracted from the “story”. The reason why 99% of the people don’t complain is because they have nothing to compare it to, they see the movie presented to them as the “best you could get with the given tools” while i can easely show the same story to people done mediocre and the exact same story done good and they will hate the one and love the other, sometimes “just decent image quality” doesnt cut it. good image quality has to do with a lot more then camera technology, i’ve seen great stuff beeing shot with an old DV cameras “10 years ago”.
I agree with shawns statements, including the one about the “fan” statement … fanism is stupid. There are times where the 5D comes in handy, there are times where you need to go for a Red, there are times where you need to use a geneses or arri and there are even times where you will shoot with your cellphone.. all depends on what you do, they ALL have their limitions and benefits.
and please, don’t limit yourself by the idea that 10 years ago this was a “dream” for you, try to dream today about what you want in 10 years in stead and force canon to inovate their hardware as much as possible.
In fact few guys already got the firmware 2.0.3 by the way we mentioned :)
You can laugh, but they smile having their camera updated.
“not a clue” is right (in part).
We did, although not in this way the post is telling -and we don’t have dogs at this time, but we’ll consider that :)
What we mentioned is that Canon was very interested on some kind of RAW or uncompressed video output, somehow to compete with RED. The output would be recorded by an external new device (expensive)
We’ve been told about that in mid 2009. So it’s not really new.
The point is Canon never released any official firmware regarding this possibility, neither made a comment (of course, don’t ever expect such kind of things, they speak less than Mr. Bean…)
We wrote that months ago, more than once. You are not reading carefully!!! ;)
We’ll take your word on this one.
Have you seen phillip bloom’s work that was displayed on a 40 foot screen at skywalker ranch for george lucas and tarentino? There was also a feature at the toronto film festival shot all 5d… I’ve shot with alot of different cameras and seen them played back in small theaters, this camera works fine when used properly.
But I think it’s only 4:4:4 Component and not 4:4:4 RGB which is more bandwidth than Component.
I’m not an expert on this, but I know that the F35, F23, SRW-9000 and Genesis all record component in 4:2:2 mode but RGB in 4:4:4 mode.
So I’m not sure how useful 4:4:4 Component is.
I might be wrong on this.
I think it can do it.
We need to make a clear big push for this feature to end up on the 5d mark II asap.
Has anyone started a petition. I think this is the next big feature needed.
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