Canon EOS Rumors

7D & Announcements [CR1]

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Canon EOS 7D (New Source)

Canon EOS 7D?
Canon EOS 7D?

This is the gist of a message I received about the upcoming SLR announcements.

Announcement of at least 1 DSLR on September 1st/2nd (Depends on planet location).

Specs were sketchy at best, but the following information was given.

– First Prosumer dSLR with Dual DIGIC processors from Canon.
– First Prosumer dSLR with dual card slots from Canon.
– Camera will NOT be full frame, but no crop given.
– Video features will best the 5D Mark II.
– Better AF as compared to the 50D & 5D Mark II.
– Noise Control is better than 50D and arguably better than the 5D Mark II.
– Very similar pixel density to the 5D Mark II.

New 1D
A new 1D will not be announced with the above camera.

cr

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291 Comments

  • So.. It sounds like I am going to have to suffer another year with my XTi cause this already sounds outta my price range.

    Is there a direct print button atleast?

  • No, there is a new “Stop your with Direct Print Button Jokes”-Shoutout-Button which lets every one know, that this joke is dead.

  • Same boat here with my XTi. hoping for a $1400 or so 60D. One can awlays hope. Maybe pick up a reduced price 50D.

  • ohh, I forgot: the holes in the picture above are not microphone holes. This is the speaker for the message.

  • Who says there will be only 1 announcement? Maybe the 60D will come later on this year? ;) keep on hoping

  • let we talk about rumors 1d mk4 will be ff body if canon 1d mk4 still 1.3 crop body i think most ppl will move to nikon 3d cos 3d is ff body and also 3dx and d700 . for 7d i think will be 1.3 crop body as a lower price market body.

  • it’s stated: NOT full frame

    to me it seems as they would split the xD series like they actually are doin’ with the 1 series.

  • the wholes are for:

    a) you can give direct print voice commands. so the will not be any DPB, sad but true..

    b) the camera gives you feedback like “smile” or “cheese”

    c) duno: voice-memo, and vids (this one is less likey)

  • The neutral observer agrees, this sounds like it might be his new camera too…if it pans out.

  • i think its a baby 1D, and in this case, i think we will see a baby 5d either, first one for PJs, second for entry FF.

  • that is how i see it. and therefore it wont be a camera for me. i will have to camp some 10 moar years with my xsi :-) untill canon will release a cheaper consumer FF-body. i hope the crop thing of this rumor won’t be true. still looking for a sub 2k FF-body. maybe i’ll have a look at sony’s next models…

  • Wait, wait, I got this one. It’s actually a “stop complaining about direct print button jokes button”. That way people who don’t like the jokes can just hit a button and they don’t have to reply so negatively to those of us who do enjoy such humour. Haha! I win!

  • By pixel density I assume they mean number of megapixels.

    So, the 18mp rumor might be correct.

    The big question – is it going to be 1.3x or 1.6x?

  • “- Better AF as compared to the 50D & 5D Mark II.”

    So It would probably be an APS-H sensor

  • I think it will be Aps-H, to differentiate it from the 60D.
    The new 1D4 will be FF.

  • Out of curiosity, what would be the benefit of going for the APS-H sensor compared to the APS-C sensor?

  • What is your need for FF? Not really a need if you are willing to stick it out a little longer with your xsi. Sounds like you are a part of the, “We want it! We want it! …what exactly do we want again?” group.

  • 16.2 meg pix is the same

    18 is =To 23 meg pix

    so the number is 15.2 meg pix similar not equal density

  • He isn’t saying he NEEDS one (did he actually write that?)
    Please don’t be so picky; frustrated?

  • Nope, PP had it right. *Similar* to *5D2*, not exactly the same. If it’s 16-18 mp, then it must be APS-H.

  • I sold my 50D to get the 5D Mark II, but I think I’ll wait til next week. Just in case.

    I know they won’t ship next week but I can use my XTi until then.

  • if you’re an XTi user who’s seriously looking to upgrade, the 50D is an excellent camera at an excellent price. unless you’re a tech junkie who absolutely has to have the newest, there’s no reason to not consider the other excellent XXD series cameras out there.

  • Another CR1… Better than nothing, but far from what we really need now – CR2 and CR3 info… Canon is doing a good job making sure no leaks happen… Getting tired of all the wishlists, etc.. Guess just need to wait a week or so..

  • the 5DMkIII will come at some point, but probably not Spring 2010. I don’t think Canon’s going to fix what ain’t broke until it gets a little longer in the tooth

  • I don’t think you’ll see a 5D update for a while. Considering how long it took them to update the original 5D

  • I bet it will not be a 3:2 aspect ratio sensor. It might be the same height as APS-C or maybe a bit bigger, but it will be much wider: a 16:9 ratio “APS-W”, at least.

    EF-S lenses could still work in a crop mode; the width of the mirror would not be a problem, only the height. Also, keeping the sensor height low will allow for a lower viewfinder prism and plenty of room for a built-in flash–like the one in the “leaked” 7D photos–without limiting the viewfinder coverage.

    Alternatively, it could be a pellicle mirror to allow for phase-detect AF in live view. There were some Canon patents discussed a few months ago that were variations on that pellicle mirror theme.

  • Comparable pixel density to 5DII is 8.1 megapixels aps-c, and 12.7 aps-h. The megapixel war might be over but there is no way canon is releasing an 8 megapixel dslr.

    These specs are totally bogs or this camera is APS-H.

  • Have you ever even used a full frame body? I doubt it. If you are still happy with an xsi versus a 40D/50D… How do you even know you’ll be able to take advantage of full frame? Do you even know what it means?

  • It really does not sound like a reliable rumor to me, which is why its CR1.

    With Sony announcing a low cost FF, this is also what we will see from Canon, priced perhaps $100 less.

    The 60D will be a tweak of the 50D. With the new FF cameras hitting the $2k price mark, the D300s will probably suffer from those who think FF is better at the same price, so there will no longer be any point in competiting with it.

  • Could we get the option to turn one off? dont use burst, and having 2 processors eats more battery, yes?

  • Please check my calculations :

    Full frame 24 x 36 = 864mm²

    APS-H 19 x 28.7 = 545mm²

    APS-C 14.8 x 22.2 = 329mm²

    Taking the 21.1 Mega pixels of the 5D2 and dividing by 864mm² gives us a figure of 0.0244213. If we then multiply this by the areas of the other sensors we get 13.3 Mpix for the APS-H and 8.0 Mpix for APS-C. The APS-C at 8 Mpix doesn’t sound likely but there is a precedent, the G11 has only 2/3 the pixel count of the G10.

  • its just for the quality of the atristic effect i would love to go back to FF, as in ancient film times:). the xsi is good enough in terms of iq and speed for my needs. a bigger viewfinder (plus a good focusing screen) would be nice for MF. maybe the second weel of the xxD would be nice too. then DR and good high iso performance. but sure, a second hand 5D is actually an option…

  • If you’re neutral, why do you care for rumors? wait till it comes out and leave us alone till then.

  • what’s up with you guys? Chill out
    Ever thought about renting one? using one from a friend? reading reviews?

  • and yes, i had a 50D to. but pictures were no sharper, except @ 1600 iso and above. ergonomy was ok but a lillte big for my taste. if bigger than an xsi, i would like it to be ff. i mean that eaven my roleiflex equipement takes less space than the actual canon ff-bodies. look at nikon they have also smaller ff-models, but not under the 2k$ price tag….

  • OK… what is you fascination with FF?

    The funny thing to me is that people want a really cheap (sub $2000) full frame camera. I would bet the sensor is the most costly item on the bill of materials. The current method of reducing cost in the semiconductor indrustry is to shrink the size of the die (sensor in this case). Smaller the die, more die on the wafer, better yield per wafer, cost per die goes down. In the case of imaging sensors, “people” want bigger. So, reducing the size of the die is can only work so much. They reduce the size of the periphery or other parts of the die, that are not the actual sensor. So, what’s left, reducing cost elsewhere, so making cameras with inferior materials, (shutters, PCB boards, plastics instead of magnesium shells. …OR not including “NEEDED” features, such as, PRO AF, larger, better LCDs, better battery technology. So, everyone’s “NEED” for a cheap FF camera, will result in less overall product satifaction for the group as a whole.

    question…

    I can only guess, but does Canon produce their dSLR sensors on 200MM wafers or 300M wafers?

    Thanks.

    John

  • The rumors are getting weak. Yes 1d, no 1d, aug 25, sept 1, 7d, 60d. Who knows. Also, I’m beginning to believe their DSLR announcement will be as “ho-hum” as their point and shoots.

  • nothing, and you are right about the chill out, i will…

    and hes i have had a 5dii for a few days, it was fun and i realized how it was back in the times of the film cameras. since i found the 5dii a little too big and a little too expensive, i was just hoping to see a cheaper consumer-ff-body appear with the 7d. not anytihing moar than wishes.

  • Well, I was hoping to replace my 20D with a full frame camera, but this would do (especially if it’s APS-H). I’m hoping for $1500-1800 MSRP.

    Besides, if I want full frame, I’ll keep shooting film. (:

  • smaller? are we talking about milimeters here?
    I agree about high ISO quality between a xxxD and XXD, but generally, it’s all about the ergonomics and handling! personally, that’s why I prefer a xxD body over an xxxD

  • You are right. If these rumors are true the only reasonable solution is 13 Mpix APS-H camera. The problem is that with
    dual DIGIC giving many fps, low noise and (I assume) VGA LCD we got something better than 1D MkIII. I hope it is true and it suggests that also 1D MkIV is comming soon.

  • It’s voice commands. The new Selphy printer speaks to you as well. from Canon’s site: “One of the coolest features new to the SELPHY ES series is the Voice Guidance functionality.” I dont know why Canon made a printer that talks to you, but they now have…

    Printer

    “You aren’t seriously going to print that one are you?”

    Photographer

    “OK, how about this one of the sunset?”

    Printer

    “So cliche, you amature.”

  • good reason to switch, 2 ho-hum cameras in a row: 50D and now the upcoming 60D would mean Canon isn’t willing to Compete hard with Nikon.

  • LOL YOu move to Nikon based on a C1 rumor? Good bye.

    Yes, Canon is doing a very good job at making sure mums the word. We’ll all just have to wait another week.

  • What about the noise problem with high ISO? The people from B&H suggested that I should buy the 40D instead of the 50D because it was shizzer.

  • If the 144 reasons per second rumor is also true, and all of this rumor is true, that would have to mean something like 14.4MP and 10fps and APS-H. Perhaps the new 1D4 AF only with helpers for only the center point?? Small body form.

    It would make sense, 14MP is quite a bit less than 21MP so it would still leave 5D2 owners feeling ok in some respects.

    Might well be a fantastic action and semi-general camera, although APS-H is unfortunately rather awkward for landscape work….

    (Only bad thing is it might imply 5D3 will go to hyper resolution rather than staying at 21MP but moving up to say 6.5-8fps and a fast FF may take years and years to arrive from canon in a small form factor.

    I’d rather see a FF 21MP 5D3 at 6.5-8fps in two years than a 30MP 5D2 at 4.5fps and an 18MP APS-H 7D2 at 12fps or whatever. I guess in two years you could just keep the 5D2 at point or if you don’t have one already, pick one up for a song, and use that as your landscape cam and then get a cheap, by then, 7D or a new 7D2 for action.

    Unless in two years time they just combine 5D2 and 7D into a FF 21MP 8fps 3D…. could happen.)

    OTOH lots of rumors say 18MP and then it would be 18MP, 8fps, APS-C but that wouldn’t match this rumor as that would make it much higher than 5D2 density and it would be hard to imagine that it could arguably match 5D2 noise performance, more or less impossible one would think (it would be a trick as it is with APS-H).

  • I am weary about this. It looks like my own personal wishlist, which makes me think it is too good to be true.

    If this is true, then it is my next camera.

    Things that make me think it isn’t:

    Dual Digic Processors? For 8fps? Why, 50D does 6.3 fps with one.

    Better AF than the 5DII, better video than the 5DII, better noise control than the 5DII? Really? On a cropped sensor?

    Maybe it is the Digic 5 and it is incredible, I sure hope so! I need a camera that does better at high ISO than my XSi does.

  • either one, its a personal thing. to me, the extra megapixels and FPS of the 50D are noticeably better than the 40D, while the ISO noise is a lot of bull stemming from DPR junkies — to me, the high-ISO noise from 50D photos looks great and far better than anything my 30D puts out, despite the smaller pixels. point is, if you’re an XXXD owner in need of an upgrade, why should you care if the 7D is out of your price range, there’s fantastic stuff in it already

  • FYI – if you haven’t tried a FF camera yet, then it’s much easier to wait. I just got my mk2, and sure, I wish the AF was better, but it’s really amazing having that full frame. The EF lens focal lengths start making lots more sense – 70-200mm isn’t just an outside telephoto anymore, and the 50mm is way more useable. Not to mention that you can crop out a 1.6X crop and still get a 10mpx shot.

    Of course, since I got my mk2, I selfishly need the 7D to *NOT* be full frame, or I’ll start crying.

    As for sub-$2k full frame… Full frame sensors cost much more to make than cropped sensors – even more per unit area because they require a larger cut from the silicon wafer, which increases the amount of silicon you have to throw away for each defect.

    This is from Cambridge in Colour:
    “The cost of a digital sensor rises dramatically as its area increases. This means that a sensor with twice the area will cost more than twice as much, so you are effectively paying more per unit “sensor real estate” as you move to larger sizes.”

    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

    So, it’s not something that we’re going to see come down in price as quickly as the rest of electronics – silicon wafers are expensive and defects happen, so full frames are going to be expensive.

    I dunno if they’re making the original 5Ds anymore – if they’re not, then the $2k price tag on them is probably driven by demand. If they are, then apparently they can produce a $2k full frame.

    Again – I’d love a better AF system. If you are doing sports, this hypothetical 7D might be better suited for ya. But, if you want full frame, it’s probably still worth going with the mk2 and dealing with the AF. It’s not horrible. And, it’s a safe bet that the 7D’s AF system will make it into the 5dmk3 a year from now (hopefully?), at which point I’ll be looking to unload my mk2 for $1800 or so.

    You can pick up a new mk2 through (I hate saying it, but…) Bing.com for $2300-$2400 with their double-cashback right now, which I think ends at the end of this month:

    http://www.bing.com/shopping/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-Digital-SLR-Camera/search?q=5d&p1=%5BCommerceService%20scenario%3d%22o%22%20docid%3d%22BA56686967426AD1CFEA%22%5D&wf=Commerce&FORM=ENCA1

  • in terms of handling there is actually the viewfinder thats the biggest issue for me, then the dial-weel on the back. the rest i can live with. so the only thing i would like apart from the handling things would be an affordable non pro ff-body. it’s just what I am asking for. which does not have to mean that others are wanting it too

  • It’s been a year and you still have a hard time finding the mk2 in stock. They’ll ride this out a little longer. I wouldn’t expect a mk3 until at least fall of 2010, but I can imagine the mk2 selling well even through 2011 or so… but what do i know?

  • more like 13.4-13.8 at 1.25x depending whether you base it on 21.1MP or 8.2MP

  • I’m bothered by the fact that the 5D mkII is still back-ordered at B&H… Are they using the same factory that produces the 5D’s FF sensor for the 7D?

  • Dual Digic 4s to handle 8-10FPS, 1080p video, better AF, better IQ on a APS-H sensor, sounds reasonable.

  • Dual Digic could easily be for faster video frame rates like 1080p 60, or at least 720p 60. They did say that the video feature will be better than the current offering of the 5D Mark II and I can only imagine that it will be.

  • It’s bigger. So you can either have more megapixels with similar pixel density or you can have bigger pixels, or a little bit of both. Also, you can have 2/3stop shallower Dof for the same FOV. IMO, I’d rather have FF, but APS-H is a nice compromise for speed/resolution/price for now, as obviously they’re not going to release an 8FPS FF with better AF for less than a 5D2 and it looks like this new cam will be filling the price gap between a xxD and 5D. I’m happy, as thats the price point I’m looking at to replace my 40D, as long as the specs are as good as rumoured.

  • It’s not full frame so I’m not interested, besides I just got a 5D Mk2 which makes me doubly not interested. All the same, if this gets 24p then they sure are heck better update the firmware on the 5D!!!

  • did u read my post above? that is all i want. and yes, it’s no NEED, i am not making my living on photography. therefore, the canons ff-bodies are just out of reach. and since film is slwly dying (i have serious issue for the developpement of my roleiflex films) i would like to see a consumer FF-body from canon. My glass would appreciate it.

  • We’ll, they’ve leaked a couple of pictures, as that top plate is almost certainly the top plate of the new cam, but yeah, they’ve been unusually tight with the specs. It’s also unusual that they didn’t release a DSLR and lenses with the powershots. I guess we’ll find out what the deal is soon enough.

  • I hear he doesn’t drive around much anymore… His car is stuck in neutral!

    *polite applause*

  • Did you ever notice how nobody laughs at your jokes? Leave the print button stuff out. Not funny.

  • You guys who are hankering for the sub $2K FF only need to go to the dark side. Nikon have been selling it for months and it’s called the D700. I would probably have bought one already if it wasn’t for my Canon glass. If the 1D4 or D7 don’t hit the spot, if they ever show up that is, I shall definitely be looking at Nikon again.

  • +1.

    Can’t understand the excitement about 1.3x.

    It’s the worse compromise, not the best, as some tend to believe.

    It’s not FF and you don’t have the ‘reach’ of 1.6x.

  • I think production quantities play a far bigger role in product cost than sensor size. If they made as many of a particular FF sensor as they do of an xxxD sensor I doubt the cost difference would be very much.

  • thanks for the information, blake. and yes i am conscious that FF-senors are more than 1.6×1.6=2.56 times more expensive than crop sensors, sure. i know that there are flaws within the production of big sensors. but as technology advances and FF-camera-prices are comming to a prosumer level, i think that it is just a question of time to see a sub 2K$ ff-body of canon. seems like the consurrents (sony or nikon or petnax) are going to do it before canon though

  • There is a logic problem in your statement.

    You say that the production cost of a FF sensor will never fall, because of the die area which must be constant. Right?

    So how do you explain that the production cost of APS-C sensors is falling ?

    Reality is that the yield of a fab line is increasing over time. Additionally the initial cost of a fab has to be leveled by producing as much wafers as possible.

  • Sooooooooooooooooooooony

    Sooooooooooooooooooooony

    Sooooooooooooooooooooony

    Sooooooooooooooooooooony

    Sooooooooooooooooooooony

    :)

    Forza Atleti OE

  • +1

    by the way the selling price of the ff-bodies has come way down over the last 6 years, too.

  • David,

    Are you kidding? Reducing size on silicon is a fundamental way of reducing chip cost. No matter how many chips you sell at a loss, you will still lose.

    Say, for example, Canon can produce 1000 FF sensors on a 200MM wafer and currently their fab and produce a MAX of 10000 wafers a day. Two options to reduce cost of the FF sensor, shrink (which can’t happen) or go to 300M wafers which will get them 1400 sensors per wafer, but cost $4.5 billion dollars to build a 300MM wafer fab.

    Not to mention the supply of silica in the world is limited.

    There will have to be a fundamental change in the way sensors are made before we a sub $1000 full frame camera.

    john

  • 720 60p and 1080 30p would be pretty much the same amount of data, that’s how the GH1 can do both 1080 30p and 720 60p – which the 5D2 should already be capable of via firware update if Canon ever gets around to it. Going to 1080 60p would mean doubling the data flow over 1080 30p, and would justify dual Digic.

  • i agree with that. For Example, Lamborghini sells more cars in US than the rest of the world. But that doesn’t make Lamborghinies any cheaper for the US market.

  • Whoa, I had to check – I didn’t realize that the 1.6x crop happens on the width and height of the sensor – I thought it was area. The full frame is way more area than I thought.

    Full frame sensor: 864 mm^2
    APS-C frame sensor: 332 mm^2

    whoa.

  • and it costs 2700 usd, i didnt know that 2700 stands for sub2k =/
    so pls dont shout out loud BS like that

  • I would love to see something with a great AF system and faster frame rate. But it may make my 5DII expendable if it meets my needs.

    Buy!!!

    Sell!!

    Feel like I’m in the stock market exchange!

  • Johnno here is an investment banker. you put in $2700, he’ll give you back sub $2K. where does the rest go?

  • wow, i did not imagine they cat pack 1000 ff sensors on one 200mm wafer. times 10’000 wafers a day. that would be 100’000 ff-sensors a day. if as assumed 1 ff-sensor costs 600$ to produce. the fab would generate 60’000’000$ a day. that would be:
    – either, too much ff-sensors on the market. so, price would drop and we should quickly ff-rebel :-)
    – or, produce the costs of a 300mm wafer fab within a one or two months
    we should run that business :-)

  • I never said FF production cost would never fall, as I stated better yeid among other things will improve cost. I was looking at the best case scenerio, where you have yeild at 98%, have shrunk the die as much as you can. There is a limit, unless you go with large wafers, to get more die, which costs billions of dollars to do.

    The basic product lifecycle is that tons of money put into R&D, goes into production, sold at a high cost to; pay for the help pay for the R&D and high cost due to low yeild. As yield increases, cost of production per die go down, then in turn selling cost of product goes down. Getting high yield quickly as possible is paramount to making money.

  • Well assuming your costs for waffers is correct, perhaps. I just don’t believe it. I think the bulk of the cost is on R&D and the material costs are very low. But prove me wrong. Show me where I can find material costs for waffers and sensor production materials and we can see if your example is correct. If your theory was true and supply of materials is so limited we would be seeing massive price increases as production goes up and people buy more cameras and there’d be no $700 15 MP DSLR’s by now. So show me the error of my thinking and post some sources for the materials showing I’m wrong and I’ll change my opinion, OK?

  • That’s why I used, “for example” when throwing numbers out. I’m not going to do the math to figure out exactly how many FF sensors can with on a 200MM wafer versus a 300MM wafer. …and it’s not 24x36mm either per sensor, as that is just the active sensor size, not the including the periphery.

  • Initial production costs are always high because they have to factor in recovering R&D and development costs too, so the longer they make a production run, or the higher the quantity produced, the faster those developement costs are recovered and then are no longer factored in to the per item cost.

  • I don’t know what’s worse, the direct print button jokes, or those who have to leave acerbic little remarks about how unfunny they are.

  • I think It will be 1.6 crop… 1.3 is not bad though… but it will affect the xD IV selling with this configuration…

  • Who knows? Canon may need the double digic4 to support an advanced hd-video mode.
    They will still be able to cripple fps via firmware. FPS may also be limited by other factors such as the shutter mechanics.

  • I am really hoping for a 1.6 crop, with better noise handling than the 50d. I assume that APS-H is not going to support EF-S?
    Get it out already!!!!

  • David,

    I can’t give you exact sources or exact numbers to prove my claim, but I can tell you that the semiconductor business is not at all like any other. I can’t explain why costs keep going down, when in theory they should stay the same or go up as resources are used up. Maybe it’s the consumer bases’ demand for cheaper products with more features that drive companies to shave costs and profits margins in every way possible in order to give a comsumer a lower price in the hope that they spend their money with them (canon) instead of them (nikon).

    I do know that consumer items are not made as well as they were five/ten years ago. They don’t last as long as they used to. Marketing and Sales departments have the comsumer based convinced that anything OLD is no good and you should go out and buy a NEW one. Maybe this has a direct connection to a products lifespan. Things are not designed to last, therefore companies have to convince people to upgrade before the product fails. Ask anyone who has bought a new phone recently, a great percentage would say, “My other phone was getting OLD.” …not that it stopped working, but the majority would say because it was “OLD.” We do with are cameras. we don it with everything we buy.

  • While I agree that the processing time will be significantly reduced I don’t think you can say that it’s the same power consumption. There is almost certainly be more circuitry involved and if there is an idle power consumption to each DIGIC processor, that value would be doubled.

  • I don’t buy it.

    If it’s true, it would have to be a 1.3x crop, since 1.6x with similar pixel density to the 5DII would be 8mp, and although I think the MP wars are over, they wouldn’t go that low. 1.3x would be, what, 15mp?

  • “kinda” .. the base sensor to image processing time is halved, then the image in it’s entiriety is handed off to a single DIGIC for processing, NR, etc and then buffered for write.

    so it works out to be about 1.6 times as fast as a single DIGIC.

    it was in some whitepaper or some canon info somewhere .. beats me where it was stated now :( .. probably the Mark III which was the first with dual DIGIC’s.

  • put the two together and just walk away .. come back in a few hours to a stack of prints. both printer and camera agreed, post processed and printed.

  • From my unnatural observation, manufacturing techniques and ability has greatly improved and will likely continue to improve. Sure, there are crap products out there, but most of my electronic stuff has gotten much better over the years, including my camera gear.

    Not all old stuff was well built. I had at one point half a dozen Nikon F3’s because they broke down so often. I’ve yet to have a single EOS body die on me, even my old 1D & 10D are still working, and the build quality of my newer Canon’s seems better than the older ones. I remember how flimsy and cheap the old Rebel body was, but the T1i has a sold feel to it. Canon’s able to do this and make huge profits even in this bad economy, so they can’t be taking a loss on the cameras to drive prices down.

    I think it’s only a matter of time before we see FF under the $2k us price point, probably very soon, under $1k will take a while it if happens as companies have now invested in dedicated APS-C lens lines and I doubt they’ll give that up.

  • hmmm.

    bizzare rumour.

    okay .. so “very similar” pixel density as the 5D Mark II.

    well, it’s not a 18Mp 1.3 crop nor a 18Mp 1.6 crop then ..

    it would have to be around a 8 to 10Mp 1.6 crop, or a 10-12Mp 1.3 crop (hmmm.. 1d Mark III sensor anyone?)

    however, none of that needs dual digic.

    a single DIGIC IV could easily pump out 12Mp at nearly 8 fps.

    so something doesn’t add up with this rumour.

    however, if we think back to the prior 7D rumour of 18Mp .. at 8fps .. dual DIGIC IV’s .. would be very close.

    for it to have a “similar pixel” density .. it would be a 1.1 crop :p

    PS .. nothing is stating as a fact that canon cannot do larger sensors .. a full frame sensor is a 2 pass process..rumours had it that canon can now do it in one pass.

    perhaps a slightly smaller crop?

    wasn’t there a rumour about last year or the year prior about a weird crop size camera coming from canon? 1.1 crop or something crazy like that?

  • Always my job friends “Nikon” shooters have bean jealous about my Canon gear… Why? Canon was always one-two step in front of Nikon, let say FF Body, Fast acquired AF, and good tele-prime lenses.

    Now we have a problem Canon has leave no choice or the gonna make a body whit price like nikon and more AF points, or mostly people go to Nikon or Sony.
    Like a professional I can’t afford that my job suffer.

    I think Canon could go like Kodak…

  • And much more (needed) speed for direct printing.
    I think NOIKN and SANY will also implement this magic feature!

    And then the race will begin – who can provide a faster processor for faster ditrect pronting.

    XEXEXEXEX

  • this is abolutely the best coment about the direct print button I’ve ever read in this site…!
    ;-)

  • The D700 is $2360 at B&H. How is that “sub $2k”? But, like you, I’d already own one if I didn’t own so many EF mount lenses. However, Nikon lenses tend to be more expensive than comparable Canon lenses.

  • here’s an earlier post form another forum for that 144m reasons:

    from what i was told .. 18mp + 8 fps + 19 AF pts = 7D

    Paul

  • How many Lamborghini cars are made verses Toyota Camry cars? If you reduce the cars to their raw materials and price them it gets very hard to justify the price difference unless you factor in Toyota is able to produce more Camry’s in a year than Lamborghini makes on all their cars in a decade.

  • I really can’t wait! Canon South Africa don’t even have any stock of the 50D available, so I don’t have ANY affordable upgrading options at the moment…

    As for APS-C / APS-H… can’t really care less. Both have their advantages for a wildlife photgrapher (landscape vs telephoto portraits). Better AF and higher MP than my current 30D will do the trick, and then a price of less than about $1800….and sufficient stock so that I can get one by November!

    (Why are there so many Nikon supporters browsing a Canon site?)

  • This rumor was reported by in Reponse-Photo magazine.
    As the “more details on MX format in our next issue” and the “Canon event on August 25th” flops…

    Oups :)

  • If this is in fact an APS-H sensor, then I could see Canon replacing the 1D line with this 7D(?) line and then move the 1D up to a FF sensor.

    This would make the rumored 7D somewhat comparable to the D300s minus the difference in sensor size, the 5D would be comparable to the D700, and the 1D/1Ds comparable to the D3/D3x. I’m saying these would be comparable and not equivalent, therefore we will mostly likely be seeing Nikon and Canon leapfrogging each other from time to time within these categories. In the end everybody wins.

    After reading all of the rumors on the canon side of things, I kind of wonder what Nikon will bring out for their next lineup D4, D400, D800 within the next 2-3 years or so since it’s been so quiet on the other side. Is it just me or does Canon seem to have the first refresh all the time over Nikon? The 5D then the D700 then the 5DII then D700x/D800, same with the 1DIII, D3, 1DIV?, D4?

  • If it’s another APS-C, it will only be a D300s killer.

    APS-H is more likely to drag attention.

  • Hmm, how fast could a Dual Digic processor chew through pixels? Would it be powerful enough to capture, say, 1080 video that is based on downsampling instead of the “line skipping” technique you see employed in the 5D and other video capable DSLRs? That could also be useful for things such as superfast burst modes where the shutter curtain stays open.

  • Well remember the Best Buy story about 12MP.

    Do the maths, a 1.3 Crop with same density as the 5D II => 12.5MP.

    Might just be waht’s coming?

  • First time for dual-direct print buttons in a prosumer camera, eh? Not bad. Not bad at all.

  • The 5DMK2 is a fine camera except for frame rate. The next announcement will be either 1.3 or FF. I just can’t understand why they would want to have another 1.6 crop. If they are to turly raise the bar FF at 7-8 fps 18 MP or above. However my bet is on APS-H at 15-17 MP, very low noise and 10 FPS with an AF improving on the 50D, which is pretty good as is.

    The next 1D would be a merge of the !D and 1Ds lines. It will be FF and about 22 MP with 12 fps, leading edge video, and killer – best in world – AF.

  • Based on a compilation of many 7D threads, I speculate that the Canon 7D will be as follows:
    16.2 MP 1.3 crop
    >6 FPS
    dual digic IV
    CF and SD card slot
    Initial retail approx. $2199.00 – 1999.00 USD

  • Nothing wrong with the 5D MkII. Depending on your usage but if you can afford it buy both. I grabbed a MkII a few months ago for my weddings and currently have a 30D for back up/faster shooting. If the 7D fits between the 50D and the 5DMKII as described then it will be a perfect replacement for my 30D.

    Also begs the question of what goodies the 1DMK4 might bring!!!!!

  • I think these specs sound plausable.

    I think this camera will be 1.6x for sure (would be amazing if it was 1.3x, but it makes no sense).

    Apparently one of the big costs of bigger sensors is the yield.
    With a bigger sensor there is a greater chance that there will be a flaw and you have to trash it.

    If this camera has good video specs, it will sell like hot cakes.

  • It’s hard to found mk2 because there is no competition at all

    FF 1080 HD

    wait a few month and you will see !

  • I have seen a lot of “discussion” about wanting a full frame vs wanting a APS-C SENSOR in this site. Both sides have some merit but really fully explore the implications. Let us start with the lens first. All lenses have slightly unsharp corner, just a matter of how bad. So are the FF camp people willing to live a picture of slightly burred corner. If they don’t, they will trim the picture and effectively, they end up with a picture taken with a APS-C picture.
    For the APS-C camp people, they can eliminate most of the unsharp corner because they are only using the center of the image formed by the lens. But they are facing the resolution limitation of the lens.They need a lens with very good (excellent) resolution.
    My take about the situation is either side have a point as long as they realize what they are up against. That is the lens itself. For me the choice is get the best lens you can get (e.g. Canon L Lens for Canon) and let size , weight and feature determine whether you want a FF or APS-C sensor. For me, a APS-H is the best compromise.
    As for the lengthy discussion about not able to make a under $2000 FF camera due to the sensor cost is not a valid argument either.
    sensor is only a small part of the cost of the camera. For 200mm wafer the cost is about $1000 to $1500 per wafer, depends on the process. Even at 60% yield, the coat will not be more than $50 per sensor. For 300mm wafer, the cost is about $1500 to $2000 per wafer. the cost per sensor will not be more than $35 each. the above also shows the way to cut the die cost: to increase the wafer size. We have 25mm wafer about 45 years ago and we keep on increase the wafer size to have more and more die and cut down the per die cost. This also explain why the electronics product are getting cheaper and cheaper through out the years.
    Unfortunately, in order to make products cheaper, a lot of corner have be cut, especially on the mechanical area. When is the last time you have seen a lens made of solid brass. Nowadays, a metal (aluminum) lens is already consider as a pro lens. A 40 years old Leica M4 is still working like new. How many new camera can make that claim?

  • Holy crap, you all uber gear geeks. No wonder Canon Rumors is starting a forum. Screw the mini 1DmkIV…gimme the rea1 thing Canon!

  • It’s hard to found mk2 because there is no competition at all

    FF 1080 HD

    wait a few month and you will see !

    I’m moving too… D700x :)

  • That post was not from me, although it’s one of the more plausible I’ve read, when I submitted it to CR I suggested 8fps was a likely figure why else would you need to processors? In terms of resolution, pixel density will be around the same as the 5dII so 1.3 = 16-18 mp, 1.6 = 13-14 presumably.

    As for the AF, My money’s on a simplified 1D AF, which would sit around 19 AF points. Maybe they’ll test the next 1 series AF in this body before it hits the pro market :P (more of a wish then anything else).

    Also as for the tennis players complaining about noisy shutters if that would be caused by any camera I suspect it would be this one, as it’s most probably got a smiler shutter assembly to a 5dII/XXd so there for noisy.

    As for price point, I was informed it would be very competitive, around or just above the D300s, but essentially it’s been put together and marketed in a way to not compete directly with the 5dII

  • Please, please tell me this doesn’t mean they’re abandoning the $1400 xxD line. That’s right smack dab in the middle of the price bracket that I can afford. $2000 USD is too much to spend to replace my 20D!

    I know the 50D is a good option, but I’m really very, very excited about a DSLR with video. I’m just really hoping for one in the $1400 price bracket.

    Nervously waiting for Sept 1st….

  • If its the same pixel density as the 5DmkII, it would be in the range of 12.8 mp for APS-C and around 8.5mp for APS-H. This is based on calculations of the sensor area relative to FF.

    So, if it is, it would sit squarely as a direct competitor to the D300s, except perhaps in the area of weather sealing and sensor crop size, which are unclear at this point.

    But based on the premise of its performance ( ISO, FPS, AF ) … I think it would make for a very, very good complimentary camera to the 5Dmkii!

  • The only thing i would be jealous of (i have a 5d2) is the dual CF. &$#@ canon for not including dual CF on a 3k camera.

  • third persom speaking makes zach want to punch neutral observer in the face… 1.5 times as fast

  • I know the 5dmkii generally has been in short supply due to high demand (amazing how that works!)…but it does seem lately that most of the major vendors are really tapped out.

    B&H hasn’t had the 5dmkii in stock for a few weeks now.

    I wonder if the manufacturing capacity of Canon is tied up making 7d’s…I wonder if Canon and the retailers expect demand for the 5dii to go down once the 7d is released?

  • If that is the case, I would say canon is really “screw-up”. Canon’s own lens cannot even have enough resolution for the 15mp APS-C sensor. Also there are physical laws to limit the resolution regardless how good the lens is. For the case of 18mp APS_C sensor any aperture opening smaller than f 4.3 will start to suffer from resolution regardless how good the lens is.

  • 26 August, the new Canon Eos

    2008-08-05 20:06 2008-08-05 20:06

    We have already received an invitation from Canon to a display on 22 september. Now we have a new call.

    The news will appear on 26 August is quite clear. If Canon will also demonstrate new products, 22 september, we do not know.

    While serving on 26 August will start at 9.00 in Stockholm, but probably is the news released an hour earlier. We are obviously in place to report and make web-TV.

  • I can believe this. I think Canon will announce a very impressive model. And I do think it will have better video than the 5dii because Canon has had an extra year to perfect that.

    The interesting thing will be how such a model will impact 5dii sales.

  • 1.3X is a good compromise. given the same pixel count as the 1.6X and everything else is equal. It will be about 3 times better in noise. As for “reach”, you can always use the only the middle part of the image. Compare to FF , the image will be sharp from corner to corner, if a good lens is used.

  • More importantly, would a Dual Digic increase the scan line performance of the sensor during video, thereby reducing rolling shutter artifacts?

  • That’s the thing. If it’s 1.6x, there will be no impact on FF sales. Just the opposite – most 5DII owners will end up with a 7D as well.

    If the sensor is bigger, though, it would be another story. Even 1.3x will compete directly with the 5DII.

    I’ll be quite happy if it’s 1.6x.

    Don’t know about the noise, though. Canon may have a new generation technology in store.

    Nothing wrong with the extra resolution if the *pixel-level* ISO/noise is as good as on the 40D.

  • The $1400 xxD line is more like a $1000 line these days.

    Good for us but bad for Canon.

    Most probably it will get replaced with a D90-competitor with similar specs and price.

    There will be no $1400 xxD anymore, I’m afraid.

  • I guess it’s not obvious, but I think it would be hard to believe that they’d sell an 8FPS FF cam for less than a 5D2, and rumour has it that the 7D should be a little cheaper than a 5D2. The cost of the FF sensor, high end AF, mirror built for 8fps and better video mode together would cost quite a bit more. It could happen I guess, but my money’s on APS-H for that reason. A $3200 3D could be the high-speed FF cam in the future.

  • maybe they will spec up the next rebel a little bit to gill the gap. I don’t know though, the xxD line is pretty important for sales and while a 7D could be very much so maybe they would still miss the xxD?

  • 2AM or 3AM EST tonight. Would be interesting. But the dates you list don’t match other stuff….
    interesting….

  • What do you care more about – “per-pixel noise” or “per-frame noise”. From what I understand, 40D is not better than 50D on per frame noise. You will need to output at a bigger size to see the per-pixel difference. For me, that makes 50D better for real world use

  • I’m a 400D (XTi) user, and no – I’m not a tech junkie, and I’m seriously looking to upgrade. But there IS a reason why I would wait for the next camera. First, my 400D still works as it always did, so there is no rush, just deep desire. So I would rather wait for video in the xxD (or whatever the so called 7D) line

  • +1

    I suspect the new camera will support EF-S lenses. However, I believe it’s an APS-H sensor.

  • That is not really true. Just like most industries, semiconductor industry also thrives on economy of scale and offsetting new R&D costs. That is precisely why the latest and greatest DDR3 RAM for my new computer costs more than the widely used DDR2. And that is why if you shop around for the older DDR or SDRAM modules which were once dirt cheap, you will find them much more expensive today

    Besides, your whole math just centers around production costs. What about overheads and margins? Who pays for R&D and when? If “for example” canon makes $1200 profit on a FF camera and $300 profit on a crop camera, is it beneficial to sell 10 FF cameras or 50 croppers?

  • It’s all guessing at this point. But I’d think a 12 MP FF is a lot cheaper than a 21 MP FF, the fps is a result of the amount of data it can move, so there’s not really any extra cost for that if you get the 8 fps by reducing MP, and you lower the overall price at the same time.

    The video firmware and liveview LCD will likely get borrowed from the 5D2 so there’s cost savings there. I doubt a high end AF will be in it.

    So a FF 7D 6-8 fps seems to fit a couple hundred under the 5D2 to me.

  • Lets say its released on 1st September when can we see it in stores?

    Doesnt it take 2 months to hit stores??

  • Huh?

    If its FF it’s not gonna be 18 MP, more like 12-14 MP, which is no threat to the 5D2’s 21 MP, it’s a completely different target market.

  • I do think that wouldn’t be that necessary.

    The extra 5mpx is nice when you took the wrong shot, and can correct it by cropping.

    The main thing is: it focus much faster, is bigger and that is better and it is way faster. The 3″ LCD is nice too.

  • When you want video in a prosumer, yes. When you want it NOW and mucher cheaper, go for the 50D!

  • Who cares about EF-S lenses? Anybody with the money to buy a 7D will have no intentions of fitting an EF-S lens on it.

  • Fyi – I was the first person on these BBs to suggest APS-H. Initially it was laughed at. Now they’re all talking about it.

  • 1.3x is the best by far. Who cares about a 1.6x reach? You don’t need the extra reach with 1.3x as noise will be a lot less so even with cropping the picture the quality will be better on 1.3x, particularly noticeable in low light on high Iso.

  • Wait you fool. I can feel that the D300 killer is coming. If it doesn’t come I will be packing my bags and moving to Nikon. But I do believe Canon will deliver this time.

  • I think it’s universally accepted now that 1st September will be the announcement date.

  • It will be a fast camera, so not FF. Keep your 5D unless it’s wildlife or sports that floats your boat.

  • As I said earlier. If you want to use primarily EF-S lenses then you shouldn’t be looking at camera bodies in this range. This body will be made with quality lenses in mind, not cheapo EF-S lenses.

  • Yes, go like Kodak. Canon should just completely stop making quality cameras and move into the highly lucrative disposable camera market instead.

  • If it is APS-H then the D300 fanboys will be horrified at the monster Canon have created.

  • Yes. And the fact that you even ask that question would imply that you need to stick to the Rebel range.

  • “Say, for example, Canon can produce 1000 FF sensors on a 200MM wafer”

    WTF? We are talking about sensors with an imaging area of 36mm x 24mm on a wafer with a diameter of 200mm. It is unlikely they can fit more than about 16 FF sensors on a wafer that size. On a 300mm wafer, though, they could fit over 40 sensors. The problem is that a 300mm wafer fabrication plant costs about US$2bn these days. There are considerable savings to be made with an increase in wafer size, but there is an enormous capital cost to be recouped, so don’t expect prices to fall any time soon even if Canon move on from 200mm.

  • Canon can probably charge more than Sony, not less. Canon has a better “system”, so they can charge a little extra for that.

  • It’s the number of pixels per second, not the size of the sensor that will dictate the processing power required. Though if the pixels are very small, there might be a need for extra noise reduction processing. That is more likely on a small sensor, not a large one.

  • from all the things I’ve read the last weeks about the new dslr from canon, I think that the best movement from canon would be to introduce TWO new dslrs. one with 1,6 crop sencor (60D) as a second camera for profesionals (sport photografy, and one full frame for all those who want just one camera with great image quality, but don’t care about burst speed or many mp…
    with this everyone would be satisfied…

  • If Canon can bring out such a camera, at the same or slightly higher pricepoint of the D300s, it would make a huge impact.

  • .______________________________. the price will still be high.. i guess ill have to stick with my 400D for many more years..

  • why cant canon just make ONE CHEAP BUT AMAZING camera

    like a 5DMkII but with higher fps and waaay cheaper ._.

  • You are just plain wrong, based on my quick survey of comparable 24-70, 70-200, 14-24/16-35, 100/105 macro/micro, 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 lenses at B&H. If you have data to the contrary, lets see it.

  • From a comercial point of view, the vast majority of sales are on the rebel-upgrader segment.

    If the new xxD is well above the 50D price, I doubt many Rebel users will seriously consider the upgrade.

    In my opinion a 50D update with a better sensor(less noise) and Full-HD video and the same price (at most) is the most sensible thing to do.

    I must admit that the 500D with real HD video would have been really tempting, but it’s not what I think of an “upgrade”.

    So until Canon releases a competitive xxD I would better spend my money on glass or even consider a switch to nikkon before buying an “old 50D” or an slighty underpriced 5D (which is definetly out of budget for the most of us at this moment.

  • Lol…roughly comparable ? Nikons are atleast 20-25% expensive.I guess you know we are not talking about plastic consumer kit lenses

  • Does APS-C makes much sense? What would make this truly different from the alleged 60D? APS-H is a nice halfway point to FF.

  • Canon needs to improve the high ISO noise of the 50D, but I question if a huge announcement is needed to do this. A 60D to upgrade the 50D can be 15 MP with better pixel quality and sensor control of noise.

    The “new” announcement should be the 7D with 1.3 with a fast frame rate and highest image quality – kind of a 1D3 replacement. The 1D series should merge with the new 1Ds4 being FF and very fast with also the highest image quality. Of course spot on fast AF is a necessity.

    I know, I am wishful thinking.

  • A camera that does not have a full-frame sensor is not a “prosumer” camera.

    If the description is correct, it appears Canon is willing to “sacrifice” the 1D3 (which is a cropped-frame high-speed body) to the 7D.

  • Strictly speaking, a “professional” product is any product a professional uses. In that sense, the 50D is a professional camera. For that matter, the Olympus E-3, with its tiny sensor, is a professional camera.

    So what, then, does “prosumer” mean? In the context it’s commonly used, it means a product with professional features that doesn’t carry a “professional” price. For a digital camera, the defining feature is the size of the sensor. And if it ain’t 24×36, it ain’t “professional”.

  • I am sure the I will agree. Prosumer means a product that will be either used by professional or consumer. since most consumer will not pay an arm and leg for a camera, so they end up with a cheaper price model. I have seen a lot professional uses APS-C sensor cameras either by Nikon or by Canon. In fact I have never seen a professional using Olympus E-3. and you call E-3 a professional camera. You have just contradicted your self. just out of curiosity, what would you call a Leica M4 ??

  • I have never seen “prosumer” officially defined; I prefer my definition. And whether or not you or I have seen one, there are professional photographers using Olympus Four Thirds SLRs. (I have an E-500, and it takes beautiful pictures, fully suitable for “professional” use.)

    Many years ago, Popular Photography had a short piece on a Kodak Instamatic camera with a spring-driven motor drive that was modified to be mounted on a sky-diver’s helmet. The author pointed out that this “professional” equipment, because it was being used by a professional. Which makes sense.

    The issue here is what “professional” means in the context of the never-clearly-defined term “prosumer”. If any camera used by even one professional photographer is a professional camera (and it arguably is), then the term “prosumer” is effectively meaningless.

    As I said, a prosumer camera has to have professional featueres — and the sine qua non (for me) is a full-frame sensor. Unless a pro photographer were deeply into sports or nature photography (which require long effective focal lengths and rapid motor-drive operation), he or she would insist on a full-frame sensor, for all the obvious reasons.

  • I think I’ve at least implicitly explained, but let’s give it another go…

    A: If you were a professional photographer, would you use anything less than a full-frame camera? Of course not.

    B: Did “professional” photographers ever use half-frame 35mm cameras? Not often.

    Look, this is an issue of how a particular word — that exists only for merchandising purposes — is defined. I’m not going to argue it any more. A full-frame sensor is a professional feature, and any camera that wants to call itself a prosumer product, has to be full frame.

    I’ve had my say. Take it or leave it. I will not respond to any further remarks.

  • Video features will best the 5D Mark II.

    Huh? The 5D2 is still blowing minds all over this planet with that insane video quality… how could a cruddy crop-sensor camera “best” that?

    My 5D2 is paid for and getting used all the time. I’m DONE worrying about camera bodies, it’s too tiring.

    NOW, what aisle are the L lenses on???

    MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

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