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60D Coming?
Yes it's April Fools day, and I've received some crazy stuff. This seems relatively legit.
60D Specs
- 18mp (7D Sensor)
- 11pt AF (New AF System)
- Same Video Modes as T2i
- Same LCD as T2i
- 6fps
- Not 100% VF
- No Electronic Level
- ISO 12800 Max
- Prototypes are in the field
An announcement for the camera would be near the end of May/early June.
cr
Yay, another pixel-crammed crop sensor!
For those of you who don’t see the benefit of high pixel density: at 100% I can make out nose hairs in family photos, or at least until F/4 or so when diffraction kicks in and the image goes to mush.
Yes.
This will be the one for me, the only things that can spoil the party is the buffer size.
I’d say 6.5fps, not 6.
So are all the Canon APS-C cameras going to just flat-line at 18mp? They really don’t expect to go higher, do they?
You again?
Son of a gun.
Been waiting to hear details on the 60D. Depending on the specs & performance, I will upgrade from my XSi to a 60D.
People said the same thing at 15Mp.
I just wish Canon gave us some options in the number of pixels for a given body/sensor size.
And no mRAW is not the same thing as a lower Mp sensor.
So based on those specs, I only see one difference between it and the T2i (frame rate). Presumably the body style will also mimic the 50D, but are these slight differences worth a whole new camera? I would hope that a real 60D would differentiate itself more to justify the price increase. Based on the DPReview on the T2i today, I intend to upgrade from my XSi in the next month.
I hope this isn’t just April Fool’s Day. I would pay a little extra for a 60D just to get the magnesium alloy body. It seems a little hardier. I dunno, I’d have to see all the specs vs. the price difference. Oh well, here’s hoping!
Not happening. Just suck it up and buy a 7D
Unless it starts out at a lower price than all the other XXD cameras did, I don’t see any advantage over the 7D, which has lots of discounts available that are dropping the price to around $1400, which is about what the 30d, 40D, 50D all cost initially.
Luckily I bought the 50D for half price(and having money for lenses) the 60D will be a and doesn’t improved much(may be auto focus) at all.
marc
These specs are underwhelming. I’m not upgrading until Digic 5.
I just bought the T2i, and will rage if this 60D comes out. If it’s a full body like the 7D then man I will not be happy.
Dammit, thanks to your posting date now I don’t know what to believe.
Regardless of whether this rumor is legit or not, I do think a 60D is in the works. I just can’t see Canon giving up on a camera line/price point that has been so incredibly successful for them.
The T2i looks to be a great camera, but if you bought it thinking there would never be a 60D, then I think you are in for some disappointment.
could we just get a FF in a xxxD body? Honestly don’t need the other features like extra screens or more buttons…etc.
Hmmm, stock levels of T1i’s should be down by then. I heard that somewhere before didn’t I?
Perhaps you did.
So is an EOS 60D in the works?
If those specs are true, I think that would be a disappointing camera.
I agree, but didn’t expect it this soon after the T2i.
Canon would be better off lowering the price of the 7D to $1300 and avoiding the 60D all together. Unless Canon sees to it that the 60D comes out at a significantly reduced price, like < $1100 I just don't see the advantage of a camera between the rebel and 7D.
1DsIV and 3D please.
These specs should be no surprise to anyone, but even the fact that prototypes exist wouldn’t mean that this camera will actually be produced and sold. Why? Remember that Canon is a business, and their aim is to make money. They are not, inherently, photography aficionados; this is just one of their means of making money. My guess is that the 7D has been a marketing experiment: Canon wanted to know, in the absence of a current xxD body, how many people would move up to an xD body versus down to an xxxD body. They sell more of the xxxD bodies, but my guess is that profit margin goes up with the retail price as well, especially over the full life of the product. Now that the T2i is available, Canon buyers have a clear choice. The next month or two of sales figures will go into a spreadsheet at Canon, and that spreadsheet will answer the question for us. If 7D sales numbers go down too much, then either they will drop the 7D price or the 60D will be introduced. If the 7D numbers hold pretty firm, then the 60D will not be manufactured right now, but a new version of the 60D will go into development. Profitability, short and medium term (there is no long term in this market, as far as I can tell), will determine what cameras are sold, what they’re named, their feature sets, and their prices. Profit: nothing more, nothing less. Those who want a 60D, or a cheaper 7D, should hope that 7D sales numbers drop considerably in favor of the T2i. Those who think the xxD is a useless market segment should hope they don’t.
I wonder if the lens diffraction will be noticable on this camera too?
Also, I agree that these numbers look believable.
Would you like some cheese with that whine?
An 18MP sensor will _always_ show more detail than a 15MP sensor using the same technology, regardless of diffraction and noise effects.
Yet Nikon seems to sells tons of D90’s, despite the D300s.
The marketplace seems to want such a camera. I just hope that Canon will deliver.
Add that new AF system, and the build, size and pentaprism viewfinder that are expected of xxD cams and it’s worth it. Not to mention the fact that the buffer should be bigger, less shutter lag, VF blackout, and who knows, maybe they’ll throw in the wireless flash commander from the 7D. Small things like the top LCD, a PC sync socket and bigger battery (LP-E6) also add up.
This rumor seems accurate. Since xxD is no longer flagship of apsc cams it will be bridge cam for the 7D. I believe it will get many features of it’s big brother with mag-alloy body and get new batts and grip. But not flash master, leveller or full weather seal. Price point will be that of 50D.
I’ve seen many 7D’s in the hands of amateurs because it has video and photo capability and it’s top tier for apsc. The most feed back I get from amateur users with deep pockets who jumped from xxxD line to 7D is they don’t know how to use it and are on full auto mode. With usually just around 8gb cf that came with the cam.
That said, there will definitely be a 60D that is simpler to operate and understand. Remember Canon sells more to consumers than pros. Once the 60D is released there will be alot of used 7D’s with low counters for sale.
I wouldn’t grade this tip as a CR1. A 2.5 would be more accurate. There is a 50D replacement. Release of it, and the timing, are 100% marketing department driven though, marketing are also accountable for unsold stock levels. As I said before, the release of a 50D replacement would have to coincide with acceptable levels of T1i stocks, when the last of them can be absorbed and the T2i price can ease then the 50D replacement can be launched.
All I am aware of is that the first and last points are correct, the rest is changeable, I don’t have a clue about another new AF module, but it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
Expect the 60D to have micro-focus adjustment (on the 50D, not the 550D), wheel on the back, etc.
Agreed, digic V has been a long time coming
I’ve heard this song before. I thought I wanted a 60D; now I’m not so sure. 18mp 1.6x is just not that appealing to me. Especially since 90% of what I shoot is landscapes.
Sure I could use a better AF and faster frame rate to keep up with my niece as she gets older, but not this. At the moment, as a hobby photograher, I’m completely underwhelmed by what Canon has to offer. Looks like my 450D and Elan 7E will be with me for a while longer.
Why would canon put out a cam that is so close to the 7D?
I could see them drop the price of the 7d a couple hundred. and not release anything to replace.
If they put out this cam with these specs canon would be shooting themselves in the foot. No one would buy the T2i or the 7D. they are not going to water down the market that badly.
I have to disagree. I went from a XTI to a 7D because my camera was stolen and i was reimbursed. I am a complete amateur when it comes to photography, but i know how to use my camera’s functions. It was not hard for me to understand or to use the camera’s functions at all. A little reading of the manual, and i learned all the upgrades of the camera. I honestly don’t know how much easier it could get to operate and understand any camera or device if you do some homework on it.
I have seen used 7D bodies go for cheap now, some flirting with the price of the 50D’s retail price at release.
Great to know you do research. Many don’t bother and just rely on what’s popular and new at the moment. Budget is another big factor. The xxxD and xxxxD line sales are muchgreater than that of xxD and xD lines. The reason Canon puts out new models every so often.
Wouldn’t it have made sense for the 7D to be an APS-H camera? I feel as though Canon has so many APS-C cameras and they have this crop format with 1.3 that they only delegate to one camera line. T
he 1D Mark IV really is a beefed up 7D so it would have made more sense to put out the 7D as the APS-H camera for people with pockets not deep enough for a 1D and have the 60D be the top of the line APS-C camera.
They kind of introduced this new line of APS-C camera and now they’re in this position where people feel as though there’s not enough of a gap between the different hardware models of the same crop size. I don’t know just my two cents. I for one am buying a T2i cause I’m a poor college kid who makes movies and just started dabbling in photography.
Wondering whether it will have the video / stills shooting switch. That seems kind of handy, judging from my extensive testing while fiddling around with a 7D at Best Buy a couple months ago. They’ve been out of stock since then.
My plan as well
I think you guys are on to the key issue with this thread–but while Scott and Difference make good points, I really do wonder how Canon will be able to produce enough distance between the Rebel and the 60D to justify the price increase without cannibalizing 7D sales (you guys seem to be imagining a 7D with a 60D sticker slapped on it sold for a $500 discount). They face a serious challenge here.
The 50D, 550D and 500D have all just got cashback offers from Canon in the UK, so the suggestions of trying to clear existing stock could make sense. 50D price on Amazon has dropped a lot too… but who knows what that means.
Even though I got my 50D just over a month ago, I would like to see what a 60D would have to offer.
It’s already out, It’s called the 5Dmk2, I have one and I like it.
I think it will be a wait and see with the price.
Maybe the MSRP of the 550, 60 and 7 will all be different but what will the retail prices be when the 60 debuts?
From one online retailer (US prices):
XSi $485 (450D) – Body
XS $499 (1000D) – kit
T1i $649 (500D) – body
T2i $799 (550D) – body
50D $929 – body – MSRP $1399 (on debut)
7D $1599 (with rebate) – body
Given the price gaps between XSi, T1i, T2i and 50D, there is ample room between the current price of the 7D and 50D for a new camera.
The 60D could hit the streets at $999, $1099, $1199, $1299, $1399, $1499, $1599 or $1699 and be under the 7D MSRP and over the 550D MSRP. At $1399, it is only $400 less than the current 7D MSRP.
It is tempting to say that Canon can’t release a 60D with all but X of the 7D features because it will undercut it. Well, (1) we don’t know what the cost to manufacturing is for any individual feature and (2) why should we care? One suggestion is that the cost to build a 100% vief finder is not inconsiderable.
Looking back at the specs, I’m curious about the 11 point auto focus. Either this is bogus or the layout will be different to anything else Canon.
I disagree that the 7D was some sort of marketing experiment on Canon’s part. Rather, it was a response to Nikon’s very successful DX00 line, which had already proven the market was anxious for an option at that price/performance point. The Canon faithful had been calling for a response ever since the D200 hit the streets and left all of us X0D owners watering at the mouth. Canon finally did something about it. You can thank Nikon for the 7D.
There is an $800 price difference between the 7D and the T2i/550D. That would be a huge gulf if Canon removed the X0D line, which absolutely owns the $1100 MSRP price point. Nikon has nothing to challenge it. People are mistaken if they think Canon is going to walk away from a camera line/price point that owns its niche.
Yeah, the 7D’s street price brings it close to the X0D’s MSRP, but the same rebates and discounts that apply to the 7D would apply to a 60D, all while the 60D would maintain a bridge between the T2i/550D and the 7D. I don’t think it’s a question of ‘if’ the 60D is coming, it’s just a question of ‘when.’
You should take a good look at Canon’s T2i/550D. It’s a bargain.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos550d/
Canon currently has four Rebel models, and there is only a $331 price difference between the top Rebel and the bottom one. A 60D would be $600 less than a 7D (at MSRP, anyway). Canon would be foolish to create a huge gap between the T2i/550D and 7D, which dropping the X0D line would do.
The X0D has a product cycle of about 18 months, which means the 50D is due for a replacement any day now. The 1D and 5D cameras have a longer cycle of about 3 years. It’s good to keep that in mind when shopping. Nobody wants to buy something only to have it replaced almost immediately. But you’ve bought a camera that is brand new and won’t be replaced for at least 18 months, so you’ll get plenty of good use out of it. Use the money you would have spent on a 60D to buy a good lens. You’ll likely upgrade your camera bodies many times in your life, but good glass is something you’ll keep for years.
Hello,
I agree with you stating that there is a lot of space in terms of price between a 550D (T2i) and the 7D. On the other hand, the feature set of the 55D makes it very difficult to place a “in-between” spec’ed camera in there. Let’s hope they will manage to set up a convincing package!
Hendric
same here
The rating is based on the identity of the source, not the content. That is something about which you know nothing.
My plan too, thought from an XTi. But I can see myself going into the store intending to buy the 60D then leaving with a 7D…
It would certainly be cheaper than a 7D: that would be its advantage.
What the?!?! A 60D right after the T2i. How is it going to fit in between the 7D and T2i now :P
The release of the T2i had convinced me that the 60D will take another half year at least…
Hmm, it looks just like a T2i with a 7D body, same AF as the 7D and similiar to 7D FPS.
So it looks like a 7D in fact… :[
But thanks for posting :D
The D90 is like a hybrid between a hypothetical xxD and a rebel though. Have you ever handled it? It is sized like a rebel, but handles much better than a rebel, and it is speced like a xxD series.
If Canon redid the xxD series to be more like the D90 in terms of handling. That would make the 60D stand out for sure. Could also, stretching a bit here, explain why the xxD series has been allowed to grow so long in the tooth.
This is exactly what Canon should do with the xxD series. The D90 is the perfect “bridge” camera between mass consumer and serious enthusiast. I’d love to see this in the next month or so… I’d replace me XSi with one.
Yeah, this is pretty sad. I was hoping that Canon would use the 60D line to upgrade high iso performance and the 7D line to upgrade megapixels, but eh.
You’re right, the 60D would probably cannibalize the 7D if it had a 1-stop iso improvement over the 50D/7D.
Then again, the 60D calls for a 600D, so, erm, maybe it’ll come out next year instead with 3200 iso that looks like 1600 iso.
If/when a 60D comes out, will it be offered as a kit with the 18-135 and 15-85 lenses like the 7D? Or will they just offer it with the 18-135 to keep the kit price attractive?
CR guy, it’s too difficult to read low comment rating posts. Can you change it so that when you click to show it brightens the post?
Count me in the group of people that won’t spend the $ for a 7D, but would spend a few hundred above the t2i for better AF (including in video mode), the video button of the 7d, and the 50d body.
Of course it will be noticeable, that’s pure physics. The effect will become noticeable sooner as pixel density increases. I suggest you read this wikipedia article on diffraction.
Unfortunately, the current Canon APS-C sensors seem to produce slightly mushy output, even when diffraction isn’t an issue. I cannot say how bad that problem is, since I’m waiting for the 60D. I’m only repeating what can be read in the reviews out there.
Ok, from the specs I’m not really sure what the market for it is…
Is that for companies like Gety who say a 20D is good enough fopr Stock images but a 400D isn’t? (That’s info over 1 year old now, may have changed).
Yes, it’ll be cheaper than a 7D, and more expensive than a T2i but still – specwise… I’m not sure its a useful product.
It takes the people who have some more money to spend from the Rebel – and make some people buy it rather than the 7D.
On a side note:
I got myself a 5D MK II – love it :)
I wish things could go to 10MPs ..
but again I love the 7d.
But what would the 7d look like in a 12MP low noise sensor ??
Me too. I’ve been waiting for a prosumer level APS-H camera since I think 1.3x best suits me regarding the multiplying factor to zoom lens (adding a Extender 1.4x will be perfect for low cost tele-shooting), as well as a not-too-bad noise level since the sensor size is much bigger than the APS-C.
I would probably buy a 60D IF it had the 11 point autofocus that this rumor is claiming. I’ve been looking for a good upgrade to my 40D, but have never once considered the 50D due to real world testing and constant disappointments in comparison to my 40. I don’t really care about video, but I’m sure I’d use it every once in awhile just because it’s there. Realistically, I just want a 40D body with 12MP, better high ISO noise handling, and a better LCD. Is that too much to ask? From my experience, even though I’ve never used Nikon, it seems like they REALLY listen to what consumers want in a camera body and lenses. Canon seems to do what Canon wants, not what the consumer wants. It’s unfortunate, but I’m addicted to L glass and wont switch for that reason only.
Why don’t you consider a 7d ?
Unfortunately, it’s a bit out of my price range. Due to poor decisions in the past, I don’t have the option to put it on credit, so whatever camera I get, I’m having to pay cash for. I’ve seen the 7D as low as 1300 brand new on eBay, but to be honest, I’m the impatient type, and it would take me 4-5 months of saving to land a 7D body. I wonder if it’s worth it sometimes, but if I’m able to pull in a 60D body for 300-400 less, it would probably be worth it to me.
I think it’s likely that the 60D will be equipped with the Digic V. D90 has been out for almost 2 years, and it’s the best APS-C SLR (raw image-quality wise). Canon needs to stop cramming so many megapixels into a tiny sensor. OR they will have to find a way to make the image quality still good and have 18 million pixels. D90 still has the lead though.
But dual Digic IVs is like having a Digic VIII.
;-) Kidding of course.
That makes sense when all other factors are constant. The terrible economy (globally) has really messed with these calculations though. I don’t think it’s quite so black and white. Canon’s closest competition is Nikon in the SLR market, and they’ll introduce models that make sense (=make money.) Nikon had the D300 in a space all to itself and Canon responded with the 7D. The question is whether Canon wants to match the D90 space with a Rebel, or with a 60d, or not at all.
My guess is that based on existing models, Canon likes to make their bodies just a little bit better (and priced a little higher) than Nikon. This would put the 550d against the D5000, a 60D against the D90 (or it’s replacement) and of course the 7d against the D300s (or it’s replacement.) (Consumer models, obviously.)
I’d also say that 7D was not an experiment. Have in mind that Canon had a slightly different approach to camera levels than Nikon. Their xxxD line was an equivalent of Nikons entry models (D40/D60/D5000 by far), and the next direct step after that was xxD (an equivalent of D300 and so on). Canon lacked the middle man that was Nikon’s D80 and D90.
Seeing that both D80 and D90 were extremely successful cameras they probably decided to switch to something similar to Nikon’s leveling (entry level, advanced amateur, semi-pro and pro). Also, Canon suffered a large sales drop in the past year, I’d say large enough to make them change their marketing scheme.
My guess is that they just released a killer entry-level camera (550D) and are waiting for Nikon’s next move (which would be D90 successor). That would be the time to release 60D (with better specs, just as 550D has).
As for the specs and distance between each levels, well the truth is a new body (50D like) with additional controls, top lcd screen and some minor weathersealing, plus some things inherited from 7D would make the price increase justifiable.
The truth is we’ll have to wait to see. :)
I’d like to see a graph showing the S/N ratio and another for the dynamic range of the Nikon and Canon cameras, over the last 10 years. It would be very enlightening to see the trend in FF and APS-C formats.
Anyone seen such? I predict the Canon APS-C curve has flattened out. Perhaps the Nikon would show a gradual curve, where the Canon might show a steep change (back when they were S/N kings) followed by a shallow line of modest improvement. So are we going to see a return to an emphasis on S/N improvements?
It would look fantastic, but unfortunately low noise performance and IQ aren’t as appealing from a marketing point of view as MP.
Although the specs seem reasonable, its not going to happen.
What makes you think that?
There will be no 60D.
They will just price 7D as a 50D when they release the 7DmkII (with the current 7D price tag), as with 500D/550D.
xxD line is dead.
Looks like the bargain for you is a 50D, once the 60D starts to ship and prices fall.
I’ll darken opacity a step, but that’s the best I will do.
My apologies yadda, in that case I would upgrade the source to a CR2 and a bit. :-)
This is the dilemma, I know Canon makes the camera that has the ISO and dynamic range performance I want…. and you own it. ;-) But I don’t have the coin for it (or at the least mental freedom to open the wallet that wide).
So instead, I stand on the other side of the river and beckon Canon to give me a cheaper ride to the land of awesome performance…. ;-)
Canon’s own literature that says more megapixels mean a greater need to keep the camera very still in order to avoid blurry shots. You would think that they would see some logic in backing off a bit. But the MP count gets it out the store…. ;-(
is it possible to move/compress these comments so that they are either somewhere else altogether or at least occupy much less space? sometimes you can vast stretches of downranked comments and it still gets in the way
clarify!
Working on it.
Canon should make the 60D to be a poor man’s 1D MK3 for photographer, not specification chaser. If they put on the APS-H sensor from ID MK3 ( it should be cheap since they are not making the camera anymore), auto focus of the 7D and NO video( for cost cutting), also the body of a 7D ( for lighyter weight, smaller size and still very durable). Then the 60D will beat practically every APS sensor camera in existaence.
^— I would cry myself to sleep holding that camera if it existed. :)
Two comments on your reply: First, I didn’t say the 7D wasn’t a legitimate offering that could see a regular update cycle. It will, so long as those X0D owners who have been watering at the mouth are willing to pony up the money that Canon thinks it’s worth. I can’t imagine that many Nikonians would switch from DX00 cameras to the 7D, especially if they have a collection of glass, so it’s up to new buyers and existing Canon owners to make the 7D profitable enough to receive updates. If it doesn’t make enough money for Canon, or if it takes sales from higher-margin products it will not be continued.
Second, regarding the 60D: the X0D cameras have been on an 18-month cycle for several iterations now. We are already well past that due date. In another context you could say they need more time to integrate the T2i sensor into a 60D body, but then the 7D is already out, and has more substance than the 60D. In short, if the 60D were a “sure thing” it would likely have been announced by now. About the only other possibility is that Canon are waiting for the 50D stock to sell down further to make room for a lower-priced 60D.
I hope it happens — I’ve actually been waiting for the 60D, trying to decide whether to get a 7D, T2i, or wait for the 60D. That’s what led me to my speculation that the 7D was a marketing experiment. In the mean time I’ll keep saving my money by not buying lattes at Starbucks, and maybe this Fall I’ll splurge on a 5D3.
I think a lot of the low rank posts are less about what people say and more about insecure fanboys not liking what they read. Of course I like to read the low rated ones. Normally I give them a thumbs up for honesty.
YMMV
Look at the MP wars this way- Canon keeps on upping the MP’s for various reasons. One of them is because they can. Canon engineers and manufactures the sensors. Nikon gets it from a supplier. With every cam release a Corp needs to add accompanying features with it. Notice Canon menus are more organized with easier to get to feature sets. While Nikon feature sets are hidden under sub menus after sub menus and they call it photographers designing a cam for other photographers. It’s all a matter of getting used to but we Canon users should be happy we are.
Have you compared lens choices among the two? If you haven’t you should. If a photog has deep pockets then Nikon wouldn’t be so bad. In my town I’ve seen too many Nikons with third party lens attached.
My point? Don’t pixel peep. Shoot and get those shots printed with proper post processing. Results will amaze.
then dual digic 5 is like having digic X haha XD
I just obtained 7D recently and is an amazing body to use. I’m sure Canon will omit some features from the 60D (like the wireless flash trigger) which in my opinion the best feature the 7D has.
The 60D should at least get the features of the T2i (18MP, Video, Metering, LCD) and a new and improved AF system. Tell me if I am wrong, but won’t it need the Digic 5 in order to move all those MP’s fast enough to get 6-6.5 FPS? My thoughts are that the AF system will be 13 points with some of the bells and whistles of the 7D system, but not all of course. Canon will probably come up with some new feature to set it apart from other products in their lineup, as well as the competition. Maybe there will be improved HDR…I am sure that someone else out there has more insight and a better imagination than I do.
I feel the same way too, I have bought the 7D instead of the 50D due to my needs for a more robust camera than my 450D. The 50D would fill the bill perfectly however the 7D has one thing that I like to experiment with: Video.
The 7D has been a tremendous step in development of Canon’s digital camera body. Almost all the necessary features are reachable and easy to understand… simply put, it is very well designed and build.
However, it doesn’t mean that 50D is not a great camera, it is; although its marginal improvement from the 40D has lead to its low sales and hence Canon incentives to lowering the camera price. (low demand hence the supply is being lowered and the price is adjusted)
Should the 60D is released, Canon should have learned from the previous 40D to 50D transition that marginal improvement would not lead to sales.
And it will be interesting to see how much of a “jump” can the 60D make between the 50D to the 7D apart from video, 3:2 screen and AF system. (AF is pretty good already on the 50D.. it is much simpler than 7D to understand for sure)
Canon have a very difficult task here to not make the 60D a “crippled version” of the 7D. Product distinction was clear with xxxD, X0D and XD before the 7D was released; but the 7D really makes the distinction of x0D line once has as a “semi professional body” to become somewhat of a blur.
Should the 60D surpasses the 7D, people wishing to upgrade from xxxD series or the current x0D and not to 7D or FF, the 60D would fill the bill nicely.
And I will be sitting and weeping in the corner just because I bought the 7D… NOT! XD
I’m now interested in lenses wooo! bring in the 24-70 IS or even a new 17-55 IS with better (L) built quality with weather sealing… this will be a great pair with the 7D :D
watch where your tears are going… the lack of weather sealing maybe just the one thing you don’t don’t need :D
Canon is using their ability to manufacture high pixel count sensor to out do Nikon. You are totally right. However, at the same time, we, the customer are forced to have huge image filess, noisier picture,and even not so sharp pictures due to noise reduction. I agree with you that some of the problem can be fixed by post processing. eg,down size the picture, add more noise reduction, sharpening etc. after it is said and done, our original picture may become a 8 M pixel, with a lot of work put into it. Then why not just start with 8 M pixel sensensor and save us a lot of time. It is a proven fact that 18 Mp sensor is diffraction limited at F6.3. Therefore if we want the sharpest picture, we cannot use any aperture smaller than 6.3. Also we have to use the bset (expensive) lens to make use of the 18 M pixel sensor. For me that is almost like going into the boxing ring with one hand tied behind my back. As for printing, most of people do not pring anything bigger than 8 X 10. For that 4 M pixel is more than enough. Another arguement that we “need” high pixel count is the ability to crop. That is true. But if we frame our shots carefully when we take the picture, croping will be minimum. just thing about the old days when we are shooting color slides. ‘Cropping is not an option”. My personal opinion is that Canon is raging the pixel war with Nikon at our expense. That is not cool at all.
Yeah… I think I agree >.< Sorry…
You see, there is very little room in the Canon Line now. Those who are looking for a 50D with video will look at the 7D. Those who cannot afford to pay that much more will have to go for the T2i… :P And notice that the "60D" is sharing specs with the T2i? Except for some 7D features?
T2i specs are similar to 7D specs. In other words, its a 7D…
Nvm. Sorry.
Uhm… Don’t think of photography in such technical terms. Try to just go out and shoot with an open mind. If I shoot with that frame of mind I wouldn’t be making a dime through photography…
One other thing, big corporations always do things at consumers expense. Nothing is ever free…
If you could make it 10% darker, that would be great. On a Mac, you have 1.8 gamma, which means that the tone curve on web displays is darker than on a Windows machine, where 2.2 gamma is standard. Since most machines use Windows or follow Windows standards, a little bit darker would help the rest of us who don’t use Macs.
As is, it’s readable, but there’s a tiny bit of eyestrain, so it’s not ideal.
Well the T1i shares lots of specs with the 50D but there are still plenty of differences. Those cameras have different bodies, different controls, different viewfinders and different AF systems.
If a 60D differs from the T2i in the same ways then there are still plenty of features between the 60D and 7D… dual processors, even larger viewfinder, even better AF, weather sealing, flash control etc.
I think there is room for a 60D.
LOL!
Good one!
I have a 550D and it is remarkable.
Everything I’ve seen after 12 MP looks “mushy” at 100%.
I agree iwth Matt, everything gets mushier with more megapixels. That said, My T2i is performing great here in DC for the Cherry Blossom Festival.
Perhaps there wouldn’t be ANY improvement in high iso noise; more megapixels can negate high iso noise, up to a point. It’s a matter of the signal-to-noise ratio, more megapixels results in more noise, but more megapixels also results in more signal. If the increase in the number of megapixels is higher than the increase in the amount of noise, then your high MP camera has better high iso performance than your low MP camera.
Regarding diffraction, small APS-C cameras have less depth-of-field than full frame or medium format cameras. You are unlikely to need to go up to f/11 or f/8, except if handling long-exposure, which you can get around with NR filters, and in the end, when the picture is resized to 12 megapixels, as long as more detail is retained from higher resolution than lost to diffraction, you’re still superior to a low megapixel camera.
i have one for testing.
but you have to lick my ass to get a view
Minor quibble: Nikon is making their own sensors now. Other than than, good post.
why wouldn’t they make a pure photography camera but affordable. no Video, 18Mp, 11 points focus, high iso, and at least 6 fps. I’m sure some people like me don’t care about the freakin video feature. I’d prefer getting an affordable Full frame camera without video than a camera the same as the T2i or the 7D
where the hell did you saw it was 1400… the cheapest exept Ebay is 1599…….
ya but not everybody can pay 50000000000000000000000000000000 dollars for a FF, they could make one more affordable for people
I don’t think it will have a magnesium alloy body. The body will be the same size and layout but I think they will switch to plastic to keep cost down. Nikon D90 is in the same segmant as the 50D/60D and has a plastic body.
Diffraction limit start to kick in at F6.3 for 18 M pixel APS-C sensor. So if f8 or f11 is used, sharpness will suffer. Also, after all the post process, you still ends up with a 12 Mp picture. I would prefer to have a12 MP low noise sensor to avoid dioffraction limiting at f6.3 , if I had a choice.
Because video is almost entirely a software feature, and the code for that has been written and can be copied and pasted into any new model at essentially no cost.
Furthermore, there are plenty of people (in marketing and on the streets) that think video is the killer feature.
The biggest difference between the 550D/T2i, 60D when it comes, and 7D will be build quality and handling, not the feature list.
Cant wait for it to outdo the 7d in certain areas and you’ll cry. the end.
I know you want it to be worse – I can read between the lines!!!!!!!!
This would be true for Foveon sensors but with a Bayer sensor, I think the sweet spot is going to be when 4 or more pixels on the sensor fit inside the airy disc.
Why? Because then you will know what colour that point of light is rather than it being a shade of red/green/blue and/or relying on it not fully covering onepixel exactly.
To make my point, imagine a CD (or DVD) is a properly focused point of light. Is the best way to determine its colour to use something the same size (or larger) than it to detect red, green, or blue, or is it better to use an array of sensors that fit within the size of the disc?
It therefore also seems reasonable to assume that interpolation algorithms for higher density sensors are different to those used for low density ones.
i can’t believe canon let this camera get made – it is really the best crop sensor camera canon makes right now in terms of iq. i couldn’t believe it when the dpreview graphs showed the 550d sensor had slightly more dynamic range than the 7d!
hopefully nikon will put out something awesome to make canon work even harder.
regardless of whether it’s magnesium or plastic, i’ve never broken one despite lots of idiotic dropping.
either camera will be disposed of in 4-8 years but the body will last longer than the lifespan of anybody on this board – probably in some landfill.
really? i’ve never seen anybody with a dslr in full auto mode! i think the auto modes blow compared to their point-and-shoot counterparts: they race the iso up to a ridiculous level (7d), choose 2.8 f-stop settings too early, etc.
Best Candian prices start near $1700 and up. See photoprice.ca. Unless you’re talking grey market, or “used” from a dude selling out the back of van
I would like for Canon, Nikon and other players to give us position papers that explain their approach to photographic equipment.
If we can see their road maps laid out then we can better decide who’s philosophy matches our own.
Not true. Even Bayer sensor will still obey the law of physics. Every pixel of the sensor is considered as individual pixel to determine the subject and the color. More precisely, each pixel will determine the color componet that it is sensitive to.. eg. If the white color hits the red sensitive pixel. The red pixel will detect the red color component of the white color and later on the software will dtermine that it is the white color. It does not need 4 pixels of different color sensitivity to determine the color.
The 60D will have a metal body. Plastic body is for Rebel.
Doesn’t video require specialized chips for encoding?
Compact Flash : If the 60D goes to SD cards, I’d likely just save money and get a T2i.
I’m not sure I buy the Memorial Day (or so) announce date. My recollection of past such announcements is that they are either early spring or very late summer for fall availability and the holiday shopping season. A new 60D available in time for summer shooting would be great — but at this point it’s still tough to get your hands on a T2i, and it was announced 8 FEB, almost two months ago now!
It sounds like you feel the jury is still out on the 7D. It was announced seven months ago, and I think it’s safe to say based on reviews and the reception it has received in the various forums that the 7D has been a big hit. People who own it (including me) seem to be universally happy with its performance. As I said before, Nikon had already proven the market was ready and waiting for a sub-$2k camera with a semi-pro feature set, so it’s no surprise the 7D has been so well received.
An interesting development with Canon’s DSLRs (including the 7D) is just how much attention they’re attracting from both amateur and pro filmmakers. There are companies springing up to cater solely to DSLR filmmakers. When I look at the cameras those filmmakers are using, they are overwhelmingly Canon. Until the announcement of the T2i, I believe the 7D was the cheapest option for filmmakers looking for a 1080p camera capable of using 35mm lenses. When you compare the 7D’s price/performance with traditional video cameras, it’s a steal. Nikon cameras are still limited to 720p, and they don’t have the same handle on skew that Canon cameras do. Anyway, the point is the 7D has already been a big hit for both its still-photo and video capabilities.
The 50D was announced on Aug 26, 2008 (it actually came 12 months after the 40D, so the 18-month product cycle doesn’t always hold true). That means the 50D is just over 19 months old, so you’re right that we are due for a 60D announcement any day now, but it’s premature to be writing the eulogy for the X0D line. :)
I suspect Canon is putting the finishing touches on the 60D now and may even be waiting for Nikon’s replacement for the D90 before finalizing their specs (the D90 was announced the day after the 50D, so it’s due for replacement as well). The gap in Canon’s lineup would be too big for them to drop the X0D. Not everyone is willing to spend ~$1,600 on a 7D, and the T2i, as good as it is, isn’t going to satisfy the needs of everyone. The X0D fills that $800 (MSRP) gap.
If you’re considering a 7D, don’t hesitate. I was a 20D owner waiting for the 60D when the 7D came along. I read the specs and immediately realized the 7D was everything I had been waiting for. As good as a 60D will likely be, it will still give up some features to the 7D, so if you have the money, I wouldn’t wait. The 5D3 should be an amazing camera, but if it follows the three-year product cycle of Canon’s pro cameras, you won’t see one until Q4 of 2011.
I think I see what you’re getting at. More megapixels gives more noise per pixel. More light results in more signal, but more megapixels gives a higher resolution signal. I think the signal noise ratio has been maintained because other sensor improvements (like gapless microlenses) improve the efficiency of light detection to offset the greater per pixel noise.
For diffraction, APS-C has greater depth of field than full frame. Diffraction is always there at those apertures it’s just that the sensors can now digitise it for us. It’s an upper limit on the resolution that is possible with a large depth of field, but more megapixels still gives improvements at smaller depths of field.
I see what you mean Difference, but at the moment those four sensor elements give us four pixels in the image with actual luminance and interpolated colour. Those pixels soften as the diffraction limit is passed.
If future sensors considered those four sensor elements as a unit that delivered one pixel in the image, then what you say is true. The image would have less spatial resolution, better colour resolution and a higher diffraction limit.
Read this:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/not-so-fast.shtml
take note where it mentions down sampling.
that’s what I’m referring to where I mention that the circle of confusion becomes big enough to cover 4 pixels on the sensor.
Oh and don’t forget that the EF-S 15-70 f/4 IS USM will be announced at the same time as the 60D.
To be fair, the 450D was also very similarly spec’ed to the 40D, and the both hit different parts of the market. I think anyone that’s ever used a xxD line would agree that the body differences alone are worth the price jump from the Rebel line. I agree that the 7D makes this whole way of working in the past more difficult now, although I have to wonder if Canon would boycott all those possible sales that a 60D would generate, just to protect the 7D. I’d love to get a 60D like this to be a backup to my 1D mark 3.
In South Africa the 7D retails at around R17 000, whereas all the xxD bodies were around R11 – R12 000. That would still make it exceptionally cheaper.
GL2:
First, let me say that the purpose of my original post was just to remind everyone that Canon makes their decisions based on business logic, not based on what a few well-informed customers want. It was not intended to judge the matter either way — just hoping to cut down on some of the griping about why Canon doesn’t do things the way we think they should. I’m certainly not writing the eulogy for the X0D line.
No, I don’t think the jury’s still out on the 7D, it seems to be a fine camera for what it is. I’m also pretty sure the 60D, with the listed specs, would have the same IQ. My concern is matching my dollars to my photographic needs. I’m an amateur and, although I’ve done a few paid jobs, that’s unlikely to be an important part of my use of the camera. I made a list of what I want in a new camera to replace my 20D, the most important of these is IQ. It appears that the IQ of the 7D is only a little better than the 20D, and not significant per-pixel. (Note: I’m not a mindless pixel peeper, but I do think it affects ability to crop or print large).
The other desirable features are live view, ability to control focus by computer and (occasional) video. If I’m not going FF (as I said above that would be a huge splurge) there’s no reason for me to spend $1600 when I could spend $400-$500 less on a 60D. How about T2i? Good camera, good price, but I want a more robust body. Yeah, the 7D’s AF looks sweet, but action-oriented AF is not really on my priority list. If the 7D price comes down enough I may buy it. If the 7D price holds steady when I’m ready to buy I’ll probably choose a T2i and just take extra care around dust and water. I can save the $800 difference for some glass or my next body. I’m willing to buy up for build and IQ, but not for FPS or AF.
As a final scoop of fodder for the conversation, you may count me among the folks who would have liked the 7D to be a $2200 body with a 16MP APS-H sensor. But then, Canon doesn’t ask for my opinion. :-)
OK… the 50D rebates make the late May early June announcement window more credible. :)
Seriously, why sould they all of a sudden switch to plastic 0_o
Well first, as “Carsten” said, video is a software thing and doesn’t cost anything at all to put into a new model (if you break it down you may get to somewhat 50c if at all).
There were costs in developing the feature but that is done now long time ago.
So I don’t see why I shouldn’t get video if it doesn’t cost any extra just because you can’t ignore there is an extra button that you never touch.
Do you ever use the direct print function?
See.. that’s exactly the same.
“I’d prefer getting an affordable Full frame camera without video than a camera the same as the T2i or the 7D”
Uhm… ok, but what does this have to do with xxD?
Which 50D rebates?
The article that you quote is a discussion on the future sensors that does not even exist. The article has also mentioned the effect of diffraction limit. The article also mentions that each pixel is one point in the final image. the article has never mentioned the circle of confusion is 4 pixel. So I do not understand why you quote the article to back up your argument. As for down sampling result, The article is using “intelligent down sampling” that is just another “pie in the sky” in the future.
You can always convince yourself that there is no diffraction limit in the sensor. just remember that is mentioned in the 5th paragraph of your quoted article.
Likewise, my comments were not based on what I personally want–I already own a 7D and have no interest in a 60D for personal use. I don’t have any insider info on the 60D and have only been basing my comments on what I think makes the most sense from a business perspective.
I don’t know for a fact that a 60D will come (few if any outside of Canon do), but I can see no reason why it shouldn’t. The X0D line right up to the 50D has been very successful, and the 7D is really just an answer to Nikon’s successful DX00 line. Many have been calling the 7D the 50D’s replacement (I know you didn’t), and that is anything but clear at this time. As I see it, the smart money is on a 60D coming for all the reasons I’ve outlined in my previous posts, and I would give Canon much more time to prove otherwise than some in these forums are.
As a former 20D owner myself, I think you would be very happy with a 7D. The AF really is a major step up, even if you don’t shoot a lot of action. Unless you regularly shoot in the elements and are rough with your gear, I wouldn’t worry too much about build and weather sealing. The 7D does seem to have better high ISO performance than the 20D, but I honestly haven’t compared them directly. In fact, I haven’t touched my 20D since I got my 7D last fall.
I had already bought an EF-S lens (10-22mm), so I’m not sure I would have gone for a 7D with an APS-H sensor, but that certainly would have been an interesting camera.
I save for 6+ months for lenses and cameras I like. Be a man and get the camera you really want. ;)
hahaha lol thats the exact reason why i didnt buy the t2i cuz i knew the 60D would come out.
It seems like electronics are updating everyday now ;/
That’ll be legit if it had a metal body
I saw an interesting comparison between the 30D, 40D, 5d and the 7d across the ISO ranges. It was clear that for noise, the 30D beat all but the 5D. (Some claim the 20D is even less noisy than the 30D, though Canon says they are the same sensor.)
Many folks say some of us fret about ISO performance. But when you add a circular polarizer for a forest scene at magic hour, you are talking a big drop in shutter speed. Noisy shadows are a turn off at 1600 ISO….
If I can get a camera to give me 1600 ISO that looks like 400 ISO from current cameras, then I have a great deal more liberty in hand holding or being able to freeze action on a tripod. So why shouldn’t I be concerned about this when purchasing?
I am seeing noise in sample sky scenes from a 7D at ISO 100. That dismays me… and makes me hope the 60D doesn’t have the same sensor. But my gut knows what will happen.
EFS 15-70???
I got a feeling that 4 pixels as a group may not work very well. They are side by side to each other,. so if two different color hit the group at the same time, the 4 individual pixel in the group will be confused about what color it should be. The two colors cannot even be averaged out due to different color sensitivity of each pixel. Foveon type sensor will not have that problem due to all three different color sensitivity pixel are on top of each other and all of them receive the same two different color at the same time. No body in the right mine will group 4 pixels of different color sensitivity together. By doing it, the actual pixel count will be decreased by a factor of 4( a 20 Mp sensor will become a 5MP sensor)plus the above mentioned confusion between pixels in the group. the article the Difference has quoted has never mentioned about grouping pixels. It just mention about pixel patent can be something rather than the Bayer patent in the future
one guess, although i don’t know for certain –
do “birders” and sports photographers appreciate the 1.6x more than the 1.3x for the extra range?
take a look at dp review’s comparison of the 12mp nikon vs. the gazillion megapixel canon.
just as some of the marketing hype about megapixels is b.s., some of people’s fear of more megapixels are b.s. and don’t pay attention to the extra detail the additional megapixels bring.
can’t wait to get 60d/55d. Cash already piled up :)
My 350d is noisy from ISO 800 up, AF went holidays, batteries need daily recharching.
If 550d would have second dial and slightly larger body, I wouldn’t bother with waiting…
Maybe yes, maybe no. If Digic IV requires and additional chip, the functionality will certainly be integrated into Digic V. Nowadays, it is also mostly software, but in a different language (VHDL instead of C++)
But even if it needs an extra chip, once the patents have been developed/paid, the cost is only a few cents. Probably less that the cost of the direct print button (or direct video button, for that matter).
Cost, weight, and to make it more distinct from the 7D.
I still hope it does not happen, though.
Pure speculation mixed with wishful thinking.
What difference does SD or CF make for you, really?
I’m not seeing noise at ISO 100. If you haven’t already done so, try turning off the the Auto Lighting Optimizer. You can always turn it back on in DPP later.
Would be cool if the XXD line switched to being a low cost full frame camera with great IQ for macro, static and landscape for amateurs, and the 7D and its successors continued on in the 1.6 crop, specializing in sports and birding.
Umm… minor quibble, Nikon is not manufacturing their own sensors.
Are you serious?
First, many ppl. of course have tons of CF cards since it used to be state of the art.
And second, CF can be way faster of course.
There is a reason why they started using SD only in the lower product range..
I just hope it stays there.
OMG thank god that will never happen.
Lol that would also really make sense:…(watch out, irony!)
xxxD: 1.6 Crop
xxD: 100%
7D: 1.6 Crop
xD: 100%
sure….
If they wanted to make such a camera the 7D would of course have been the perfect one for that.
Oh course. We have a constant f/2.8 lens in the 17-55 now we will have a constant f/4 in the 15-70
I think too that the probability for full frame 60D is below 5 percent but:
“Waiting” is right that there is a gap between costly full framers like the 5DII without EF-S compatibility and a potential slow full frame camera for about 1000 $ (or Euro) WITH EF-S compatibility (perhaps with a special mirror design/travel path). That would help to use the EF-S lenses many of us have WITH the possibility to use full frame lenses at a full frame sensor.
The 7D is oversized technically for macro and static subjects – “Waiting” has written down what I feel too. The 7D is a moderate cost 1D-substitute for fast photography.
But I think that you, hoktar, see the things realistic: A camera for the slow ones of us which delivers EF-S compatibility, full frame for 1000 $ / Euro reduces the number of camera bodies which can be sold by canon.
But for us photographers it would be a great thing: Use all your lenses with their best potentials in ONE body – reduced weight. And an identical second body to reduce lens changes (be faster, have cleaner sensors) and to have a spare camera onboard. It would make things sooooo eaaasy.
Also, who would buy a 5DMKII if the 60D was FF?
No, the 60D will absolutely get normal 1.6.
A FF 60D would just not fit to canons product range.
Again, the 7D would have been the perfect spot wor that but a FF cam as absolutely wrong in xxD.
I am looking forward to a normal 60D with the normal features that are rumored and I am pretty sure it comes like this.
To be honest , I don’t really care what numbers get engraved on it or even if it has video capabilities, I’d like a full frame camera at a reasonable price and really nice IQ, impossible maybe, but it would put some fear into Nikon and would probably sell like crazy which might make up for the low margin, and move even more expensive glass. The idea of EF-S compatibility would be a stellar one.
I don’t think full frame and EF-S compatibility is easily possible… the EF-S lens produces a smaller image circle and you wouldn’t want extra optics (effectively like a teleconverter) to increase the size again, at the cost of quality.
Maybe a sensor where you could use the central area for EF-S lenses and the whole area for EF lenses. That might work.
EF-S and EF compatibility is just – as you proposed – a matter of readout of the chip or better: a matter which subset of pixels is used if an EF-S lens is attached to the body. Nikon does it with one ore some cameras – if I remember right.
The major problem with Canons lenses is the different GEOMETRY of the lens’s back: EF-S lenses might use more of the mirror box of the smaller APS-C compatible mirrors. In a full frame body you will see (and hear) a collision between mirror and the back element of the lens – not a good idea to check it.
Canon has to find a mirror system which is large enough for full frame but travels around the EF-S lenses back. But I am shure that it is possible – if you are satisfied with 3 frames per second. In an EVIL concept – without the mirror – an implementation of EF and EF-S compatibility for full frame is just a matter of firmware programming.
Any idea what the pricing would be for the 60D?
What’s the point of a 60D if Canon have just brought out the 550. Better it was the full frame 3D to take on the Nikon D7… or is that just wishful thinking?
I am wondering what to choose for professional use.. the brand new Canon EOS 7D (DX) or the older Canon 5D Mark II (FX)… I know that 5D is 100% professional, but its a 2 years old model…
Thank you in advance for your help…
Canon 60D should have an articulated LCD screen! That would make 550D potential buyers move to 60D!! (and not to Nikon…). That, and a bigger grid! 550D just can’t fit in my hand – Nikon D5000 is so much better…
Articulated LCD screen feature is missing in Canon DLSR’s, and 60D would be really interesting with this and not just a boring camera to fill the (rest of the) feature gap between 550D and 7D…
Also how about weather sealing?