The Best and Worst of 2025

Totally fair!

But… the aspherical elements don’t require additional software. They distort all on their own. 😜

I expect lens designers to use all of the material engineering tricks. I expect those tricks to fall short of perfection, although I wish they didn’t.

I guess the question is how much balance is OK? For me personally, I see some value in software but prefer it to be tweaks and not essential. For me scientifically, I’d hate to have to through in digital photo as part of an automated pipeline.

For you? Your workflow seems good with it and you’re obviously very happy. So for you, Canon’s strategy seems like a win!
I'm also a bit of a scientist, and I see no scientific objections to correcting via digital rather than by analogue methods.
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The Best and Worst of 2025

Though I very subjectively tend to prefer optically corrected lenses, the latest Canon primes prove that which way is chosen has no incidence on the result. The RF 20mm is a stunning lens, and I doubt it would /could be better with optical correction.
And, frankly, I don't care, what I saw when I checked this lens fully convinced me. Visibly better than the Zeiss 21mm, and an f/1,4!
Did you ever talk to optical lens developers about the tricks they used when "physically" designing lenses? What about asphericals?
Totally fair!

But… the aspherical elements don’t require additional software. They distort all on their own. 😜

I expect lens designers to use all of the material engineering tricks. I expect those tricks to fall short of perfection, although I wish they didn’t.

I guess the question is how much balance is OK? For me personally, I see some value in software but prefer it to be tweaks and not essential. For me scientifically, I’d hate to have to through in digital photo as part of an automated pipeline.

For you? Your workflow seems good with it and you’re obviously very happy. So for you, Canon’s strategy seems like a win!
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The Best and Worst of 2025

Canon's software correction requires a Canon pipeline -- right? Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take the raw image straight to Photoshop or Affinity photo and get Canon's special sauce applied; either the HEIF or JPEG needs the in-camera adjustment, or Digital Photo is needed for a raw adjustment combined with export to, say, TIFF — only then can I edit the image with the adjustment somewhere else.
If you want to use Canon's Digital Lens Optimizer, then yes you need to take JPGs from the camera or use Canon's DPP for RAW conversions. But 3rd party RAW converters have profiles for RF lenses that require digital correction, and they work just fine. Personally, I view using Canon's DPP with the same affection that I view getting a Norovirus infection. I use DxO PhotoLab for RAW conversions, which is what I did for the aforementioned RF 14-35/4 vs. EF 11-24/4 comparison, though I also included camera JPGs along with DPP and Adobe RAW conversions for completeness.

If my understanding remains current, then I'd have to say Canon's solution is still pretty janky and unique to them among a sea of camera and lens options. I'd say that the original lens performance still matters if other software pipelines are desired -- say, for custom agentic LLM architectures ingesting images for medical or other scientific purpose. And there are many teams out there who can easily grab a camera and do advanced imaging plus analytics vs those who can afford to spend all of their research money on a big, dedicated box with 240v mains supply.
It's not. I see no reason to use Canon's software to process Canon RAWs. DxO, Adobe, Affinity, CaptureOne, and a bunch of others seem to manage just fine (as they do with RAW files from Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc.). IMO, DxO handles noise reduction much better than Canon's DPP, for example. No reason a software pipeline couldn't run demosaicing and image corrections if properly coded, just as 3rd party RAW converters do.

I think that's actually quite different from film. For film, one develops and then scans and then carries on like normal. Digital built the "scan" in, but the convenience is entirely within the camera and the scan-equivalent (i.e., raw) is good to go on export from the camera. (Except Canon just broke that with some of its modern lenses.)
The film analogy was broader – it's about resistance to change. People (at the time, not now) argued that film was analog and pure while digital was 'fake' and 'computer trickery'. The only 'true' workflow was negative to print or slide film to projection. Your suggestion of scanning the developed film would not satisfy those folks, that's just more digital trickery. Interesting that you used that same word about digital corrections.

Also worth noting that RAW images from the camera are never 'good to go'. At a minimum, they require demosaicing / color interpolation.

But as an example the EF 50mm 1.2 makes some pretty usable shots with no special sauce on any camera you can mount it to, where as RF successors require a little extra push to get the result out the door. Pick any other L EF lens and we can have essentially the same discussion. That little extra push can be a big deal in many contexts.
The EF 50/1.2L has 1.5% barrel distortion (enough to be noticeable, almost as much as the 1.7% of the EF 14/2.8L II), strong axial CA and significant focus shift...it can produce lovely, dreamy images but as example of what can be achieved with pure performance based on physics it leaves much to be desired. OTOH, the RF 50/1.2L has a native 0.2% barrel distortion and requires no digital correction, it has very little axial CA (especially for an f/1.2 lens), no focus shift and is very sharp.

Leaving that aside, for your 'pick any other L EF lens challenge, I pick the EF 17-40mm f/4L. Convince me that the physics-based optical corrections are doing the job there. Unless you like the fisheye-esque look, that lens desperately needs 'a little push' to correct the ~4% barrel distortion, as does the EF 11-24/4L.

Sorry, I disagree with your conclusion that 'any other' L EF lenses is 'good to go' without some digital correction applied. Unless you're shooting in-camera JPGs or are happy with distorted images with visible chromatic aberration, most images benefit from digital correction even if they don't strictly require it.

So I'm not saying the current approach is unusable or doesn't make great final images. I'm just saying hedging to the physical probably yields more flexible, if not ultimately better, outcomes than hedging to the software. Glad it's working for you, though. :cool:
I'm definitely results oriented. I can promise you that the 0.6 kg RF 10-20/4L that I pack for a trip will deliver significantly better flexibility and outcomes than the 1.2 kg EF 11-24/4L that I would often leave at home.
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The Best and Worst of 2025

I think that in the context of Canon's current default-approach of software correction it's fine to call-out any such afflicted lens for awards. I mean, it is clear by now that Canon decided that a singular lens is a combination of its hardware + post-shot-enhancements. A lot of people here seem feel the same way, although I assume mostly due to an acceptance of lack of options for the Canon-supplied, in-production lens catalog.

I personally still prefer to evaluate everyone's lenses on their physical characteristics. I see the software-corrections / enhancements / visual-sugar to be an early-stage post-processing trick that, while surely convenient, is still a trick and not a lens.

That stated, I also use the R6's built-in digital optimizer for making better JPEGs for quick shares with family/friends. Or I use the digital optimizer in Digital Photo Professional for more serious work as a RAW-based refinement precursor to Adobe or Affinity edits. Edits are edits in that regard, especially when just accounting for light physics.

But there is something about that olympian goal of pure performance based on physics. High quality glass / plastic combinations within a price point should always been the community pressure on vendors, in my mind, and that alone is where I'd like to see the mount open up to competitors: to curb design laziness on Canon's part.
Though I very subjectively tend to prefer optically corrected lenses, the latest Canon primes prove that which way is chosen has no incidence on the result. The RF 20mm is a stunning lens, and I doubt it would /could be better with optical correction.
And, frankly, I don't care, what I saw when I checked this lens fully convinced me. Visibly better than the Zeiss 21mm, and an f/1,4!
Did you ever talk to optical lens developers about the tricks they used when "physically" designing lenses? What about asphericals?
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The Best and Worst of 2025

Not for me. I'm not bothered by the need for digital corrections because I understand that 'pure performance based on physics' also requires compromises. I see no reason (or evidence) that optical correction is inherently superior to digital correction. They are different means to the same end.

My opinion was crystalized when I empirically tested the RF 14-35/4L (which requires digital distortion correction to 'fill the corners') against the EF 11-24/4L. At 14mm, the latter has essentially zero geometric distortion, yet the corrected corners of the 14-35 were just as good.

I hear echos of the argument that film is better than digital because it’s analog and therefore ‘pure’.

Incidentally, Canon was certainly not the first lens manufacturer to require digital correction of distortion in MILC lens designs.
I think that's a fine perspective. Just different.

Canon's software correction requires a Canon pipeline -- right? Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take the raw image straight to Photoshop or Affinity photo and get Canon's special sauce applied; either the HEIF or JPEG needs the in-camera adjustment, or Digital Photo is needed for a raw adjustment combined with export to, say, TIFF — only then can I edit the image with the adjustment somewhere else.

If my understanding remains current, then I'd have to say Canon's solution is still pretty janky and unique to them among a sea of camera and lens options. I'd say that the original lens performance still matters if other software pipelines are desired -- say, for custom agentic LLM architectures ingesting images for medical or other scientific purpose. And there are many teams out there who can easily grab a camera and do advanced imaging plus analytics vs those who can afford to spend all of their research money on a big, dedicated box with 240v mains supply.

I think that's actually quite different from film. For film, one develops and then scans and then carries on like normal. Digital built the "scan" in, but the convenience is entirely within the camera and the scan-equivalent (i.e., raw) is good to go on export from the camera. (Except Canon just broke that with some of its modern lenses.)

So in that regard I agree that in a context for some people, such as yourself, it's OK to consider the physical material and the Canon processing pipeline to equal a lens in practice; but I'd say there's plenty of use cases beyond wall photos by which optimizing the physical aspects to whatever price point context is appropriate remains an important desire, if not goal. Will imperfection remain? Probably. But as an example the EF 50mm 1.2 makes some pretty usable shots with no special sauce on any camera you can mount it to, where as RF successors require a little extra push to get the result out the door. Pick any other L EF lens and we can have essentially the same discussion. That little extra push can be a big deal in many contexts.

So I'm not saying the current approach is unusable or doesn't make great final images. I'm just saying hedging to the physical probably yields more flexible, if not ultimately better, outcomes than hedging to the software. Glad it's working for you, though. :cool:
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Canon Looking to Outsource Camera and Printer Production

I read a report on DCLife, which highlighted an interview in the Nikkei newspaper with Canon's Canon's Chief Financial Officer (CFO) Toshizo Tanak. Canon's CFO said Canon is thinking about outsourcing camera and printer for more production for some lower‑end cameras and printers. The main goal of the outsource is to boost the Return on […]

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The Best and Worst of 2025

I mean, it is clear by now that Canon decided that a singular lens is a combination of its hardware + post-shot-enhancements. A lot of people here seem feel the same way, although I assume mostly due to an acceptance of lack of options for the Canon-supplied, in-production lens catalog.
Not for me. I'm not bothered by the need for digital corrections because I understand that 'pure performance based on physics' also requires compromises. I see no reason (or evidence) that optical correction is inherently superior to digital correction. They are different means to the same end.

My opinion was crystalized when I empirically tested the RF 14-35/4L (which requires digital distortion correction to 'fill the corners') against the EF 11-24/4L. At 14mm, the latter has essentially zero geometric distortion, yet the corrected corners of the 14-35 were just as good.

I hear echos of the argument that film is better than digital because it’s analog and therefore ‘pure’.

Incidentally, Canon was certainly not the first lens manufacturer to require digital correction of distortion in MILC lens designs.
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The Best and Worst of 2025

And just let the usual whiners criticise it's a software corrected lens.
I think that in the context of Canon's current default-approach of software correction it's fine to call-out any such afflicted lens for awards. I mean, it is clear by now that Canon decided that a singular lens is a combination of its hardware + post-shot-enhancements. A lot of people here seem feel the same way, although I assume mostly due to an acceptance of lack of options for the Canon-supplied, in-production lens catalog.

I personally still prefer to evaluate everyone's lenses on their physical characteristics. I see the software-corrections / enhancements / visual-sugar to be an early-stage post-processing trick that, while surely convenient, is still a trick and not a lens.

That stated, I also use the R6's built-in digital optimizer for making better JPEGs for quick shares with family/friends. Or I use the digital optimizer in Digital Photo Professional for more serious work as a RAW-based refinement precursor to Adobe or Affinity edits. Edits are edits in that regard, especially when just accounting for light physics.

But there is something about that olympian goal of pure performance based on physics. High quality glass / plastic combinations within a price point should always been the community pressure on vendors, in my mind, and that alone is where I'd like to see the mount open up to competitors: to curb design laziness on Canon's part.
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

Inserted, unlabeled, into a discussion about using an APS-C sensor to get more reach from a lens - and prefaced by mocking those who believe in the magic of a crop sensor - no one would assume it was a smartphone photo unless they were familiar with you having done that kind of thing in the past. As a relative newcomer to this forum, I didn't know I was dealing with someone as deceptive as you, and was entitled to take your post at face value. Once again, you try to evade responsibility for a deliberate deception by blaming those who didn't see through it.

Please stop trying to justify your actions by blaming those who criticize them. What's appropriate would be an apology from you - but I'm not holding my breath waiting for one, since an apology from you would be totally out of character.

At this point, I'd settle for you shutting up about this dispute.
I think you are the only one who saw those images and thought they represented something they don’t. And now you won’t stop going on and on about it in order to create the appearance that Neuro was wrong in this debate or was trying to mislead. When in fact, you stated some ridiculous and unfactual things yourself and can’t stand to be corrected.

Maybe sometimes Neuro uses a bit harsher wording, but he has a lot of knowledge and always bases his comments on facts and, as in this topic, usually also provides sources to support his arguments.

I think Neuro’s presence is a big benefit to this site, especially when debating and confronting members who make false claims or present their opinions and wisfull thinking as facts.
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

I'm done posting here. You folks are not worth the effort, since you've clearly circled the wagons and left me out.

Where's Mel Brooks when we need him?

When you take your fingers out of your ears and speak up, I'll come back.
Please stop blaming others and playing the victim: you’ve shut yourself out by refusing to admit that you are wrong and refusing to accept the detailed explanations, by multiple members, of the basic concepts and theory.
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

I'm done posting here. You folks are not worth the effort, since you've clearly circled the wagons and left me out.

Where's Mel Brooks when we need him?

When you take your fingers out of your ears and speak up, I'll come back.
Now you know how Franz Liebkind felt. We have a Maximilian posting (not Bialystsock, fortunately) and we need more of the cast.
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EOS-M is Dead. So where’s my RF Equivalents?

I tried to get this done, but so early in the process that Sigma Japan had not yet sent the necessary parts to Sigma USA. Sigma sent me replacement lenses instead. I hope that Sigma didn't just throw away the lenses that I sent them. They were good lenses, just in the wrong mount.
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

Once again, it could be explained by the mega pixels, processing, and compression. None of those things are necessary connected with sensor size, but the relationship between focal length, sensor size and f-stop (equivalency).
That's my interpretation on Earth 2. I need @riker to talk to Data and Gordy about putting us in the right places!
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

I continue to be astonished that no one here is agreeing with me. I appear to be visiting Earth 2.
You're in the wrong, and you expect people to agree with you? Anyway, since your statement that you'd settle for an end to the dispute you've now made four more posts contributing to it. Hypocrite.
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

Inserted, unlabeled, into a discussion about using an APS-C sensor to get more reach from a lens - and prefaced by mocking those who believe in the magic of a crop sensor - no one would assume it was a smartphone photo unless they were familiar with you having done that kind of thing in the past.
The smudging from AI-driven noise reduction by the iPhone is very evident to anyone who knows what to look for. I guess now you know what to look for, as well.

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I didn't know I was dealing with someone as deceptive as you, and was entitled to take your post at face value. Once again, you try to evade responsibility for a deliberate deception by blaming those who didn't see through it.
Again, no. You were deceived by your own ASSumptions about what I posted. I was not attempting to deceive anyone, for example by claiming that I was comparing FF and APS-C. I use the term 'smaller sensor' and that was accurate. I find your characterization of me as being deliberately deceptive to be offensive. I strive to always post factual information, and when posting my own opinions I indicate them as such. I do make mistakes, and when those are pointed out I am grateful for the correction because it often means I have learned something new (though I'm certainly guilty of the occasional typographical or copy/paste error).

Please stop trying to justify your actions by blaming those who criticize them. What's appropriate would be an apology from you - but I'm not holding my breath waiting for one, since an apology from you would be totally out of character.
I apologize when I am incorrect. In this case, I am not.

At this point, I'd settle for you shutting up about this dispute.
The real issue here is that you are triggered by factual information about areas where APS-C sensors are inferior to FF. The 'dispute' did not start over the iPhone/R3 comparison images, your first response to me in this thread was about the effect of sensor size on DoF, and that reply was full of misinformation. Let's review that first response:

Leave the camera in the same place and let the framing change because of the smaller sensor and the depth of field and background blur are unchanged.
That is false. Are you going to admit that you were wrong...and apologize for it?

Telling folks just getting into photography, and are primarily concerned with whether the lens/camera combination they're looking at can capture enough light in low light situations that the f/2.8 lens they're looking at is really an f/4 lens is totally misleading to the ordinary photographer, and is primarily designed to steer them to buy more expensive full-frame gear.
Does 'the ordinary photographer' not care about noise in their images? Maybe you don't, that's fine. I suspect most photographers, especially those using ILCs, do care about noise in their images. The fact is that image noise is inversely proportional to sensor size.

If a blurred background is the paramount virtue you aim for in photography, go for it - but you're not talking the language of most photographers.
Do you speak for 'most photographers'? Wedding and portrait photographers outnumber most other genres, and for them a blurred background is very commonly used. The same is often true for wildlife, macro, and other genres, and the reason is that when a photograph has a key subject, there is often a desire to separate that subject from the background. As I pointed out in my previous reply, smartphones are the most popular camera type in the world (by far!) and they all now offer a 'portrait mode' that uses AI/ML to identify the subject and blur the background.

So, that question was rhetorical. You were wrong there, too...are you going to admit that and apologize for it?

At this point, I'd settle for you shutting up about this dispute.
You are free to do so by choosing to not respond to my posts. You may want to at least refrain from arguments over technical matters, you are clearly out of your depth (pun intended) in that arena. Not just the above corrections, there are several other posts in this thread where you've exposed your lack of technical knowledge (e.g., your statement that, "..an APS-C R5 shot has shot noise comparable to an R7" when you mean 'noise in the shot' and not shot noise, which has a specific definition and is a one component of image noise that is independent of the ISO setting).
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Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?

Some people say, "we see what we want to see."
What in your opinion makes it garbage?
Did you double-click on it? Apparently not - maybe because you don't want to see what I'm saying. It's a grainy low resolution image that no one here would boast of having taken. Presenting that low resolution smartphone image as implicitly an APS-C image (from the context and its own prefacing words) to compare to the right-hand image, which we now know was taken with an R3 and an L lens, was unworthy of anyone engaged in honest discourse.
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