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epsiloneri · Mar 7, 2012

sarangiman said:
Ah, I see. So in this case, treating 1/2e- as 1DU would mean the 5e- would be treated as 10DU, and any error in that measurement (noise?) would be better masked by the larger signal (5.6e- x 2 = 11.2e- = 11DU vs. 5.6e- = 6DU --> in post if you double the exposure you then get 12DU). And 11DU, in this case, is more accurate... so there's some advantage to 2x unity gain ISO. Am I thinking about that right?

Yes, that's how I understand it.

sarangiman said:
I wonder where along this pathway noise is added as well... if noise is added before multiplication (gain), then the benefit of higher ISO is less (i.e. in the 11DU vs 12DU example I posted above, the 0.6e- noise was added prior to A/D conversion... presumably during the read event) than if there are still sources of noise after gain & A/D conversion (where a larger signal would be less affected by noise, relatively).

I'm quite sure there is no source of noise after the A/D conversion (digital signals are very robust), but it's quite possible that e.g. the ADC noise has some dependence on the gain, that I don't know. For these more technical sensor questions, I usually refer to Clarkvision, who has an excellent article on the subject.

Mar 7, 2012

Camera Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark IV
Image Date: 2012-03-02 17:29:50 (no TZ)
Focal Length: 50.0mm
Aperture: f/2.8
Exposure Time: 0.100 s (1/10)
ISO equiv: 200
Flash Fired: Yes (enforced)

Mar 7, 2012

I am not into hdr as a style but there are times when the lack of DR spoils the picture. So I use HDR as a tool to gain the DR and aim to make it as natural as possible to the point of understatement.
This is taken with the 5DII and 17-40

drummstikk · Mar 7, 2012

Mt Spokane Photography said:
hb04103 said:

Version II is the same optically as version I, but it adds weather seal.

Click to expand...

In addition to weather seal, version II of the 1.4X also added an improved black anti-reflective coating to the inside of the converter barrel, which could have some positive effect on image quality in adverse lighting conditions, such as shooting into the sun.

My original version 1.4X is my oldest piece of Canon equipment at almost 20 years old. I would not let go of it, but my relatively infrequent use of it does not really justify an upgrade.

friedmud · Mar 7, 2012

Oooops - just noticed that that "Raw" thread was about the same site... my bad. Disregard this and discuss over there ;-)

Mar 7, 2012

I'd recommend a micro-adjust. The 17-40 is quite sharp, with even better contrast and color.

Caps18 · Mar 6, 2012

50mm or 85mm would be my choice.

The 16-35mm is a great lens, but don't be afraid to get close if you can.

LetTheRightLensIn · Mar 6, 2012

jrista said:
LetTheRightLensIn said:

jrista said:

LetTheRightLensIn said:

jrista said:

sjprg said:

For those of you whom don't beleive the camera manufacturers are ripping us off. Here is a price list for a 16 bit 80MSPS ADC. Talk about milking the technology.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ist/191/pst.html

Click to expand...

Well, if we use $50 as a base, and assume Canon has one ADC per read channel from the sensor (which I think would be essential to achieve 12fps@18mp)...that would be 16 ADC's at $50 each for a total of $800 (for 1D X), or 8 @ $50 for a total of $400 (for the 5D III). Thats assuming the ADC's are independent components. In the past, I believe they have been an integrated part of their DIGIC processors, and its entirely possible Canon has partly taken the approach Sony did, and are now embedding the ADC right on the sensor itself. Integrating the ADC component with any other component, and doing so while keeping electronic noise low, while still supporting the very high readout rates for 10-12 fps...is expensive.

I don't think camera manufacturers are ripping us off with their ADC's.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000 ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)

Click to expand...

Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

Click to expand...

I bet the real cost, talking direct material cost only, is mostly in the shutter/mirror box and the sensor (if it is FF size). Perhaps a little in the VF if it is exactly 100%. Many of the chips inside DSLRs have also been used in the $40 P&S cameras.

Click to expand...

Your forgetting the AF unit, which is fairly large, must be extremely precise in its design, is generally bound to the sensor size (from a point spread standpoint), and must be coupled with advanced control logic in the camera's processor. When you factor in the metering sensor into the AF system (as they usually are these days), that makes the whole system even more complex. There is all the software to manage the AF and metering system, make it customizable, hook all that customizability into the various body buttons....

I think expensive cameras are expensive simply because they are expensive. I don't think you can really reduce the cost down to a single component or two as easily as we would all wish. They are complex automated systems of interconnected, synchronous parts that work at incredibly high speed. Its not just metering, or just AF, or just the sensor, or even just any couple of those parts...its the system as a whole, multiple discrete components operating in harmony to accurately track subjects and produce highly detailed, highly accurate, high resolution photos...N times a second.

AF sensors are basically the same size whether the cam is APS-C,APS-H,DX,or FF.
Sure developing the logic behind AF must take lots of manpower, but we were talking strictly cost to manufacture part here not actual full down the line cost of a part. Most logic in these cams is actually pretty simple and trivial, but AF and especially AI Servo has got to be pretty tricky going indeed. I bet the first guy they said "OK so your next task is to come up with our first AF tracking system." got a lump in his throat.

Mar 6, 2012

AJ said:
The Camera Store says "price is MSRP only and is subject to change". So it looks like they're collecting $3800 for pre-oders with the final price yet to be determined (could be higher, could be lower).

Vistek is taking $800 deposit the rest on delivery.

sanj · Mar 6, 2012

Got it. Thx!

Mt Spokane Photography · Mar 6, 2012

The 7D has dropped in price since its introduction, but there is little competition from Nikon's older D300s to really force a big drop. Once a D400 comes out, the price will drop and a MK II introduced.

You can do what I did a year ago, I had a old damaged Canon 35mm SLR that I traded in for a refurb 7D using the Canon CLP and got about 15% additional off the refurb price. Its a very nice camera, and works great.

smithy · Mar 6, 2012

I've had an X10 since December, and to be honest, I rarely take it anywhere with me. I'm so used to shooting with an SLR that using a compact camera feels so 'disengaged' and the controls feel so small and fiddly. The image quality is okay I suppose, but certainly no match for my nearly 5-year-old EOS 40D.

As a fashion accessory, the X10 is a real winner though... It looks awesome.

It's not pocketable like the S100 is, which is a good reason to think twice before buying one. In fact, when housed in its leather case, it's not much smaller than my 40D with 50mm 1.8 lens on.

smithy · Mar 6, 2012

I get the impression that Canon is trying to make a clear distinction between the Sxxx series and the Gxx series, because in the past they've shared the same sensor and quite a few other specs, making them 'almost' the same cameras.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the G12 marks the end of that product line, in favour of something higher end (G1x).

Warninglabel · Mar 6, 2012

Gratz Daniel

Only 16days + 2-3 days shipping unless you overnight-ed it.

wickidwombat · Mar 6, 2012

I cant see myself getting any of these new flashes as I'm heavily invested in 580s and the odins do a good job controlling them so I'm not too excited about the new flash

Mar 6, 2012

If the AA filter strength was reduced, I'm curious what accounts for the jpeg mush samples? High NR? The few RAWs I've seen look much, much better. Prolly about 2/3 of a stop better than 5d2.

5d3 selling well at amazon doesn't surprise me at all. It's a good camera with (finally) very good AF. I'm not interested in a Canon vs Nikon sales based pi$$ing contest.

Astro said:
jaduffy007 said:

5d3 jpeg images = "wow" in a good way?? Low noise indeed, but at the expense of massive loss of detail and sharpness. If true in jpeg... due to NR or very strong AA filter?

Click to expand...

i think the AA filter strength was reduced.... i think i read that in one of the 5D MK3 articles.

The D800 raised the bar in several ways...and Nikon will be rewarded with sales for doing so.

Click to expand...

and at amazon the 5D MK3 was on no. 1 or no. 2 spots the last few days for preorder.
and that is not company blahblah...

Mar 6, 2012

5dmk.iii said:
briansquibb said:

My 5DII is up for sale.

Had a play with the 5DIII and 1DX today and decided to sell on the 5DII

The replacement will be a 1D4 or a 1DX or a 5DIII - there is no rush to replace it.

The 1Ds3 will become the walkabout camera

Click to expand...

What made you sell the 5d2?

To upgrade at a later date

Warninglabel · Mar 6, 2012

Well here a little price reduction already

Go to B&H website

Buy/Pre-order the 5D mark III here

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/847545-REG/Canon_5260A002_EOS_5D_Mark_III.html

with Lightroom 4 and save $50

Mar 6, 2012

DavidGMiles said:
The only thing that'll stop me jumping to Nikon is a decent price on the 200 - 400 L Lens - that is what I really want - and I could sell all my kit, replace it with Nikon equivalents, add £2k and have the Nikon 200 - 400 which some swear buy - if the Canon equivalent is silly money, which I fear it will be, then I will almost certainly switch

This is exactly what I did. I set it up on the nikon price watch site that when a refurbished 200-400 became available, it would shoot me an email. I got the email, thought about it for about a minute. Thought about the canon lens costing $11,000, thought about the refurbished 200-400 costing $6300, whipped out the plastic and bought it. The difference in price almost buys a D4.

Sorry, Canon prices have just gotten out of control.

LetTheRightLensIn · Mar 6, 2012

Tuggem said:
My concern with the 5D3 is not really the aboslute improvement compared to my 5D2 or how good it is. Most things except resolutions seems better than 5D2. However I compare it to the competition in feature, IQ and price where IQ is most important.
So what does it have over the D800.
6 FPS vs 5 FPS, probably with slightly better IQ at high ISO and slightly worse IQ at low ISO. This since D800 shoot 5 FPS in 1.2 crop mode. D800 does 6 FPS with grip and further decreased IQ but I can live with that.
5D3 has multi exposure that D800 doesnt have.
D800 has higher low ISO Dynamic Range.
Indications so far says tha D800 has lower high ISO noise. This is still preliminary though and may still show out to be incorrect.
D800 has higher resolution.
Perhaps someone care about video. I don't and have no idea which is better.

Basically, as it seems right now, D800 has better IQ over the whole ISO range and all 5D3 has is 1 additional FPS that you can get from D800 also with grip and decreased IQ.
I dont get it. As far as we know right now the D800 is the better and more all arround camera. That to a lower price.

Some early RAW tests and examinations are hinting at as much as 3 stops more usable DR for the D800. I really expected better from Canon if they were going to stick with 22MP and raise the praise.

At high ISO it is hard to say but it seems like the 5D3 might not do any better than the D800, if even.

Hopefully it won't bare out but.... darn the early numbers are looking to be not really what we hoped.

It also may end up demonstrating that the more MP means worse IQ claims by many are not a given.

Mar 6, 2012

Mt Spokane Photography said:
Helen Oster from Adorama posted on pg1 of this thread, that allocations for sellers have not been established by Canon. Its likely that orders have not yet been placed either. Canon may give allocations based on the number of pre-orders placed, as well as past history of dealer sales performance. Amazon may have estimated how many bodies they would get, but I would not take the information as actual fact of a specific count.

We have never been given actual numbers of any new camera supplied to a dealer, that is confidential information.

Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying that. I guess now the anxiety will continue building hoping that I made it in the first shipment from BH lol. I thought the anticipation/anzxiety was over once the 5D3 got announced but I was mistaken

. There's nothing more to do than sit around fidgeting until the shipping confirmation appears in my inbox

Mar 6, 2012

I once tried a Canon 1.4X converter on the Canon 70-200mm f4 IS (which matches the f2.8 in sharpness - obviously from f4!) and the results were not especially good!

Basically putting a bog standard TC between your zoom - even a good one - and your camera is not going to work very well.

Even very good TCs will only give decent results if used with top quality prime lenses where secondary spectrum is fully suppressed.

So if you want 400 on a zoom its definitely the 100-400mm L lens that you will need - its only slightly less sharp than the 400/5.6 which itself is a very sharp lens.

Mar 6, 2012

moreorless said:
Couldnt border performance be potentially improved by increasing the size of the image circle? perhaps thats actually what the new 24-70 does hence the larger front element ahd high price?

It probably would. That is one of the reasons I am pondering playing with MF=>EF adapters. Ok, that and parallax free shifting ^_^

Mar 6, 2012

Yes because Canon has a better captive market with the 5D and even 7D. Many will move up and some will even move to the MKII which is now affordable. Very few switch because they own Canon lenses.

Mar 6, 2012

Just ordered one with the 270EX II flash (£620) . Seeing as a friend has a 270EX II I'm wondering if a pair of them with a ST-E2 will make a decent wireless macro flash, anyone tried this?

Looking forward to receiving it, and being able to judge for myself just how good it is.

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