Canon will reclaim their full-frame megapixel crown [CR1]

[dtaylor]

My thoughts are consistent with many of you. I've taken my 5D3 all over the world and it's been put through very challenging conditions, taken quite the beating and never failed me. I love my EF L lenses and I am happy with all of them. I didn't make the 5D4 jump (I tried it and returned it), largely because it was not a big enough jump in tech for my needs. The posts are discussing a 1D R and a 5D high megapixel replacement, but I sure hope we see an all around camera that's an improvement over the 5D4 soon, my 5D3 before it goes DNR.

Depends on what you're looking for in terms of "improvement". For all the Internet chatter about IQ, sensor improvements have been very slow this decade because for still capture sensor tech is quite mature. DxO and DPReview want you to think about nothing but DR, yet the bar for DR was set by the D800 in 2012. People talk a lot about high ISO but there's not 1ev of difference between the best and worst FF sensors currently shipping.

Ironically the area which the press has ignored for the past few years, megapixels, is the area where there's still room for improvement. This is also the area where people seem to complain the most. Witness all the comments from people saying they don't want an 80mp FF RF body from Canon.

The next 5D and/or RF version of the 5D will surely have improved video and AI AF specs. But if you're not going for the high MP RF body that is in the pipeline then don't expect a significant IQ improvement over the 5D4 that you returned. It's state of the art, and that art is now moving at a glacial pace when it comes to still capture.

 

[unfocused]

... I sure hope we see an all around camera that's an improvement over the 5D4 soon, my 5D3 before it goes DNR.

Canon released a 5D comparable mirrorless last year. If you want something else you will likely have to wait for either the 5D V or EOS R II, neither of which are on the horizon just yet.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon released a 5D comparable mirrorless last year. If you want something else you will likely have to wait for either the 5D V or EOS R II, neither of which are on the horizon just yet.

Agreed, the R is very much a mirrorless 5DIV in most (but not all) respects.

I do agree with @neurorx that the 5DIV was incremental to the 5DIII, but I think that’s true of most Canon updates. That’s why I’m happily shooting a 1D X as my main camera, and felt no strong desire to replace it with the 1D X II.

 

[Michael Clark]

That's true, and I'd love that. But, is making less expensive lenses part of Canon's strategy? Does it make sense for them business-wise? I'm not sure it does.

I think it does. Canon may make more revenue *per unit* on high end gear, but Canon makes more revenue (and presumably profit) by selling a much larger number of units of lower cost cameras and lenses.

 

[Ozarker]

I am thoughtful to a fault. I see more than my share of Clavins who want to set me straight about something. I have nothing to gain by debating fools.

I do not have cramps. And I'm civil to a fault.

I keep having to wonder whether drinking the acid rain from back woods cisterns in the "Rust Belt" causes cramps or simply self-aggrandizement and general nastiness. It absolutely causes the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[uri.raz]

Ironically the area which the press has ignored for the past few years, megapixels, is the area where there's still room for improvement. This is also the area where people seem to complain the most. Witness all the comments from people saying they don't want an 80mp FF RF body from Canon.

The next 5D and/or RF version of the 5D will surely have improved video and AI AF specs. But if you're not going for the high MP RF body that is in the pipeline then don't expect a significant IQ improvement over the 5D4 that you returned.

I rarely print larger than poster. Technically, how would 80MP lead to better IQ than my 5DmkIII's 22.3MP?

 

[3kramd5]

I rarely print larger than poster. Technically, how would 80MP lead to better IQ than my 5DmkIII's 22.3MP?

It will let you better sample fine details, similar to how a 5D3 leads to better IQ than a 5D.

Whether that manifests in a print is a function of more than the camera.

 

[uri.raz]

It will let you better sample fine details, similar to how a 5D3 leads to better IQ than a 5D.

Whether that manifests in a print is a function of more than the camera.

I was hoping for more technical details.

 

[Ozarker]

That's true, and I'd love that. But, is making less expensive lenses part of Canon's strategy? Does it make sense for them business-wise? I'm not sure it does.

Well, they made the RF 35mm f/1.8. A lot of people buying the RP will be looking for the less expensive lenses if they'd rather a native mount instead of an adapter. That's especially true if they have EF-S lenses and don't want the crop, don't you think?

 

[Dantana]

Well, they made the RF 35mm f/1.8. A lot of people buying the RP will be looking for the less expensive lenses if they'd rather a native mount instead of an adapter. That's especially true if they have EF-S lenses and don't want the crop, don't you think?

True, and I'd love a whole mess of lenses like that 35.

I'm just curious if that's the best bet for Canon financially or if more expensive primes (like the other RF lenses that have come out) will make them more money in the long run. Or maybe it's both.

My point was that sure, small and inexpensive primes would be great to have. I'd love that. I just don't know if that's Canon's priority, at least from what we have seen so far.

 

[Ozarker]

True, and I'd love a whole mess of lenses like that 35.

I'm just curious if that's the best bet for Canon financially or if more expensive primes (like the other RF lenses that have come out) will make them more money in the long run. Or maybe it's both.

My point was that sure, small and inexpensive primes would be great to have. I'd love that. I just don't know if that's Canon's priority, at least from what we have seen so far.

It's anyones guess, I think. However, there may be a whole slew of them in the pipeline. The "wow" stuff is to generate buzz, I think... plus I believe Canon Stated that they are going to concentrate more on the high end. The current non-L EF lenses adapt perfectly with no IQ loss. A person buying an RP who already has a collection of FF EF lenses probably isn't in a hurry to upgrade. But like I said and you said, we can't be sure.

 

[Dantana]

It's anyones guess, I think. However, there may be a whole slew of them in the pipeline. The "wow" stuff is to generate buzz, I think... plus I believe Canon Stated that they are going to concentrate more on the high end. The current non-L EF lenses adapt perfectly with no IQ loss. A person buying an RP who already has a collection of FF EF lenses probably isn't in a hurry to upgrade. But like I said and you said, we can't be sure.

Yes, I guess it's true that we don't know what will be released, and there could be a whole mess of them.

It's great to hear that EF lenses adapt perfectly (as they should). I know that I will be using my existing lenses other than probably the kit lens when I do decide to take the plunge on the RF system. I was tempted by the RP because of the price. The viewfinder on the R and the fact that I already have a few compatible batteries has me leaning toward the original. It may be a while though as I am still trying to get over the cost of a wedding and honeymoon in the last few months. It gives me time to read the takes of people who have already made the switch.

 

[Ozarker]

Yes, I guess it's true that we don't know what will be released, and there could be a whole mess of them.

It's great to hear that EF lenses adapt perfectly (as they should). I know that I will be using my existing lenses other than probably the kit lens when I do decide to take the plunge on the RF system. I was tempted by the RP because of the price. The viewfinder on the R and the fact that I already have a few compatible batteries has me leaning toward the original. It may be a while though as I am still trying to get over the cost of a wedding and honeymoon in the last few months. It gives me time to read the takes of people who have already made the switch.

Congratulations! I got married on my 19th birthday. She had just turned 17 a month before. Been married 37 years (1982) and it was the best thing I ever did. Total cost of the wedding, reception, photos, and honeymoon, which consisted of three nights in a mom and pop motel for the 1982 World's Fair in Knoxville, Tennessee was about $800. We ate peanut and banana sandwiches, Tom's potato chips, Moon Pies, and RC Colas the entire honeymoon. She grew up dirt poor in the Tennessee back woods and had never been more than 15 miles from home in her whole life. They still had an outhouse (a two hole luxury type), and got their water from a spigot in the yard and ran a hose inside to fill the bathtub and sinks. Every light in the house was the pull chain type. No switches. So she was real happy. She spent her last year of high school as a married woman. We went to her senior prom as husband and wife. Growing up so poor, she never wants to spend money on herself. Never has had a manicure or pedicure. She does all that herself, but she indulges me. Waits on me hand and foot. I don't ask for that and she always says, "Yes sir and no sir" to me when we talk.

My brothers both spent over $20,000 on their weddings.

I can highly recommend the R and the upcoming firmware update will make it even better.

EDIT: Our reception took place in the basement of the church. We served cake, a bowl of peanuts, and a bowl of Hawaiian punch.

 

[100]

I was hoping for more technical details.

An FF sensor is 36mm on the long side.
The 5D III has 5784 pixels on the long side, one pixel has a length of 36/5784 = 0.00622mm.
If you print 900mm (3 feet) on the long side your details will be 25x bigger.
The smallest detail (in theory) will be 0.16mm.
A human eye can see detail as small as about 0.1mm so we are pretty close to that already.
An 80mp sensor will have about 11,000 pixels on the long side. The smallest detail in that case will be 0.08mm, just below what a human eye can see.

You need a perfect sensor, a perfect lens, a perfect vacuum and keep the camera perfectly still to get that kind of detail, so in reality the smallest detail you’ll capture will be bigger. You will be able to see the difference in detail between a 22mp and 80mp FF sensor when printed poster size if you look closely, but at a normal viewing distance the difference will probably be insignificant.

 

[Ozarker]

It will let you better sample fine details, similar to how a 5D3 leads to better IQ than a 5D.

Whether that manifests in a print is a function of more than the camera.

I think it could also help with poorly composed photos that can be heavily cropped to make up for poor composition. I would probably never buy one, but there have been many times in fashion work that if I had the ability to crop huge files, single photos could be composed to have many different looks and still be printed large afterwards. Plus, I could then always keep my camera in landscape position. The argument against it, in my opinion, is holding the thing still enough to get a good photo. That and the computer and hard drive investment that would go along with it.

 

[BillB]

True, and I'd love a whole mess of lenses like that 35.

I'm just curious if that's the best bet for Canon financially or if more expensive primes (like the other RF lenses that have come out) will make them more money in the long run. Or maybe it's both.

My point was that sure, small and inexpensive primes would be great to have. I'd love that. I just don't know if that's Canon's priority, at least from what we have seen so far.

My guess is that Canon makes much more from the sale of zoom lenses that it does from primes. As zoom lenses have gotten better, I think that fewer primes are being sold.

 

[Graphic.Artifacts]

Tell me again about when Sony passed Canon in terms of total ILC sales and ILC market share. I seem to have missed that announcement.

If total market share is important to you that's fine. I don't see how that's any more relevant to meeting my equipment needs than knowing which mega-corp sells the most cheeseburgers or shampoo. But, if going along with the crowd makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that's what you should do.

Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me. Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care. I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.

 

[3kramd5]

that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's.

Certainly untrue. Reduce your scope significantly from everything, and then you’ll achieve a maybe.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.

I expect they react more to their own market research than competitor press.

 

[BillB]

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.

People believe lots of things that are not true. We will never know what Canon might have done or might not have done if Sony had not produced the Alpha series.

 

[Kit.]

Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me.

It's not "inflated". In the era of smartphones, Canon still manages to sell cameras that interest people, and does it better than any other manufacturer.

Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care.

That would be quite expensive boxes.

I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.

That's how tools earn their popularity. If you are in minority there, you can as well be in minority here.

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's.

Isn't that a kind of... well, overstatement?

Did Canon, for instance, develop and publish CCAPI in response to pressure from Sony's Alphas? If so, which kind of pressure in particular, given that Sony is still not shipping a camera that supports WiFi tethering (in a legitimate way, I mean)?