EF, RF, Trolls and Children

zim

EOS 7D Mark II
Oct 18, 2011
1,842
46
#41
Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.

i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
APS -C = EOS M with EF-M lenses
FF = EOS R with RF lenses

"EOS 7D category" will be replaced by
1. higher-end/faster EOS M top models (APS-C) and even more so by
2. action-capable, hi-rez, well-croppable EOS R bodies )with FF sensor). Canon is just not yet able to fully deliver it (see interviews with EOS R team - sensors (readout speed) and DIGIC are not there yet. They need another generation jump.

PS. hope this qualifies as a "carefully considered" contribution. :)
Well in my book yes it does and not a derogatory phrase in sight :)

Taking up your second point would a way round this as a filler be to offer 1.6 crop mode on FF to gain FPS and buffer. No idea what the real word AF performance is like on the current R but I'd guess that the central area (crop areas) will be more accurate than at FF edge ?
 

Jack Douglas

https://yourshot.nationalgeographic.com/profile/64
Apr 10, 2013
5,556
89
Alberta, Canada
#44
As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.
While I sometimes turn off, depending on the degree, I also can have a laugh if it's not idiotic. It's a judgment call and I try to be tolerant but at some point I hope it sinks in for those posting that they may be turning people off with their negativity rather than impressing with their "brilliance". :) I'll assume they care.;)

If "mirror slapper" is now the new loving way to describe DSLRs then it will show in the context of the commentary and I guess I will just have to get used to it since CR is not "my" forum. I'll say no more on this.
 

Jack Douglas

https://yourshot.nationalgeographic.com/profile/64
Apr 10, 2013
5,556
89
Alberta, Canada
#45
Well in my book yes it does and not a derogatory phrase in sight :)

Taking up your second point would a way round this as a filler be to offer 1.6 crop mode on FF to gain FPS and buffer. No idea what the real word AF performance is like on the current R but I'd guess that the central area (crop areas) will be more accurate than at FF edge ?
I think it's essentially one of the rules of physics that that AF will be less sensitive on the periphery, presumably due to light fall off. However, I'm not too knowledgeable in this area. It took me some time to awaken to this reality - it's one reason AFMA needs to be done with the centre point.

Jack
 

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
#46
It seems there is a phase of creating division that a certain group of the human species are going through right now, even in the camera world ;)

Personally I am a "mirrorslapper" type of guy, I just love the sound of it.....especially in my old Pentax K1000. I remember an old Kodak Instamatic I had 40 years ago that sounded like it broke every time I took a picture with it! LOL (loved that thing!)....

I seriously believe that if I had a camera that was completely silent when I took a picture I'd toss it in the garbage!
 
Likes: stevelee
Jul 6, 2017
812
58
Davidson, NC
#47
I drive a "clunker". It still works great and gets me to work and back... and can carry two canoes and gear when I go on trips. No need to upgrade to anything else.... it works, it's paid for, and it does all that I need. Replacing it with something new adds zero useful functionality for me.....

The same with my cameras and lenses.... They are mirror slappers, but they work great! They do what I want, and until something better comes along that adds more functionality (in things that matter to me), I would be stupid to replace them for the sake of having something newer.

Eventually, both my car and my camera will die... then I replace them. Clunkers, mirror slappers.... it just means I didn't waste money....
I have a birthday coming up in a few days. I had planned to buy myself a 16-35mm f/4, but wound up getting it a few months back. So now I am giving thought to getting either a new car or an Apple Watch. My current car is almost eight years old, but when washed looks like new, other than a few dings. It has just about 44,000 miles on it. As I age over the next few years, I think a back-up camera will become more important. Otherwise, I want a car pretty much like the one I have. My old watch will need to be reset on Monday, when the date will read "31". After that, I'll lose interest in replacing the watch until it says November 31. I probably won't travel out of this time zone until next summer. I'm going to replace the battery in my iPhone before December 31, so that will put me in an Apple Store, and probably looking at the watches while I wait. Whatever I wind up doing, it won't be to impress anyone else. My current watch and current car may well outlive me. And I haven't had problems with people laughing at pointing at me when I'm out shooting my 6D2 over its lack on on-chip ADC, almost a whole stop less DR at ISO 100 than some other cameras, or its slapping mirror. Real life is often kinder than life in these forums.
 
Likes: Valvebounce

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,876
122
Vancouver, BC
#50
While I sometimes turn off, depending on the degree, I also can have a laugh if it's not idiotic. It's a judgment call and I try to be tolerant but at some point I hope it sinks in for those posting that they may be turning people off with their negativity rather than impressing with their "brilliance". :) I'll assume they care.;)

If "mirror slapper" is now the new loving way to describe DSLRs then it will show in the context of the commentary and I guess I will just have to get used to it since CR is not "my" forum. I'll say no more on this.
I tend to laugh especially if it's idiotic and on a forum :D
 

zim

EOS 7D Mark II
Oct 18, 2011
1,842
46
#51
I think it's essentially one of the rules of physics that that AF will be less sensitive on the periphery, presumably due to light fall off. However, I'm not too knowledgeable in this area. It took me some time to awaken to this reality - it's one reason AFMA needs to be done with the centre point.

Jack
yip that's my understanding too therefore a 1.6 crop on FF may actually have a more accurate AF overall compared to current APSC?
Seems to me providing a 1.6 crop (to get to 8fps+ and AF as above) would allow Canon to use existing tech and mean no need for a 7D3. I know I'd love that! all personal hopes and wishes of course :)
 

pj1974

EOS Rebel SL2
Oct 18, 2011
563
21
Adelaide, Australia
#52
Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.

i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
APS -C = EOS M with EF-M lenses
FF = EOS R with RF lenses

"EOS 7D category" will be replaced by
1. higher-end/faster EOS M top models (APS-C) and even more so by
2. action-capable, hi-rez, well-croppable EOS R bodies )with FF sensor). Canon is just not yet able to fully deliver it (see interviews with EOS R team - sensors (readout speed) and DIGIC are not there yet. They need another generation jump.

PS. hope this qualifies as a "carefully considered" contribution. :)
mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized". :)
Fullstop, thanks for replying.
I actually wrote: "As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. "
Canon M series is not a replacement for XXD & Rebel models ... they are a different market. I own two Canon EOS M bodies (and 5 x EF-M lenses), as well as >3 Canon APS-C DSLRs, and several dedicated EF-S lenses (as well as EF lens, including L glass).

While I believe in the long run there will be 2 main Canon mounts (EOS-M and RF), I believe there may be a market for APS-C bodies (& lenses) which are larger than the current EOS M bodies. The EF-M lenses do not necessarily need to be different (or larger)... With their extensive market research, customer feedback, etc - Canon definitely has a good idea of this.
The ergonomics of my EOS M5 is inferior (and quite a different shooting experience) to my EOS 80D.
Likewise, my EOS M5 (and EOS M10) with small lenses (e.g. 15-45mm or 22mm f/2) is far more portable than even a 100D with EF-S 18-55mm (which I have owned). Horses for courses (many horses, many courses).

The size and handling of a 80D is vastly different to a M5. Even my 700D is quite different to a M5, and notably different to a 100D/200D. This leads to the wide array of market segmentation possibilities. The point I was originally making, is I expect there will be some changes in models, and not a pure 'like for like' from DSLRs to mirrorless, in both APS-C and FF sensor sizes. I think the customers in the market for a "7D" type body in mirrorless form, will find a model that (mostly) fits their needs, but it may be more different as a mirrorless.

These are exciting times to be a photographer. In any mount, for any sensor size, and in both DSLR and mirrorless markets. Thanks Canon for being a company that develops and delivers great products well, so we (well, many of us) can enjoy capturing images (photos as well as videos) and sharing these with others.

PJ
 
Likes: Don Haines

pj1974

EOS Rebel SL2
Oct 18, 2011
563
21
Adelaide, Australia
#53
As far as crop cameras go, some want tiny cameras like the M series, others like a more traditional form factor like the Rebels... I believe that there will continue to be a market for both.

Since the time to transition a product from mirrored to mirrorless is when mirrorless becomes better featured and lower production cost, and that this should be on the lower speced Rebels first, I would expect to see them go mirrorless sooner....

I also expect to see some slower (and physically smaller) glass to come out for the R mount..... after all, what is the good of a small body without some small glass to go with it?
Hi Don

Yes, I understand the logic you are presenting. Though I actually believe certain features & technology- at specific 'levels' may mean that these come out in higher end mirrorless cameras first, and then trickle down to lower models later (in both EOS-M and RF mounts).

Some historical comparisons / examples:
  • the first DSLRs were not 'base' models, but more intermediate / pro level. (The XXXD and XXXXD models came soem years after a number of XXD / XD models existed).
  • DPAF came out in the 70D (rather than the XXXD / XXXXD)
  • the first lens to use USM was the EF 300mm f/2.8 L
So while the EOS-M mount / APS-C mirrorless bodies predate RF mount / EOS-R FF bodies, I believe that we may see some technology being present in the current EOS R body (and yet to be released / announced RF mount bodies) - that will transition down to more sophisticated (& potentially larger) EOS-M bodies. (There is overlap in part of what we are saying, e.g. that there is a market for larger XXXD / XXD sized digital camera bodies).

I also agree with you that I expect to see smaller glass (particularly more f/4 and possibly even f/5.6 lenses coming out for RF mount). I believe that's a good thing too, as well as the larger / amazing glass Canon is showing is possible for RF!

Good times to be a photographer! :cool:

Paul
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,267
256
Canada
#54
?
Fullstop, thanks for replying.
I actually wrote: "As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. "
Canon M series is not a replacement for XXD & Rebel models ... they are a different market. I own two Canon EOS M bodies (and 5 x EF-M lenses), as well as >3 Canon APS-C DSLRs, and several dedicated EF-S lenses (as well as EF lens, including L glass).

While I believe in the long run there will be 2 main Canon mounts (EOS-M and RF), I believe there may be a market for APS-C bodies (& lenses) which are larger than the current EOS M bodies. The EF-M lenses do not necessarily need to be different (or larger)... With their extensive market research, customer feedback, etc - Canon definitely has a good idea of this.
The ergonomics of my EOS M5 is inferior (and quite a different shooting experience) to my EOS 80D.
Likewise, my EOS M5 (and EOS M10) with small lenses (e.g. 15-45mm or 22mm f/2) is far more portable than even a 100D with EF-S 18-55mm (which I have owned). Horses for courses (many horses, many courses).

The size and handling of a 80D is vastly different to a M5. Even my 700D is quite different to a M5, and notably different to a 100D/200D. This leads to the wide array of market segmentation possibilities. The point I was originally making, is I expect there will be some changes in models, and not a pure 'like for like' from DSLRs to mirrorless, in both APS-C and FF sensor sizes. I think the customers in the market for a "7D" type body in mirrorless form, will find a model that (mostly) fits their needs, but it may be more different as a mirrorless.

These are exciting times to be a photographer. In any mount, for any sensor size, and in both DSLR and mirrorless markets. Thanks Canon for being a company that develops and delivers great products well, so we (well, many of us) can enjoy capturing images (photos as well as videos) and sharing these with others.

PJ
I tend to agree with you.... in the long term, the M mount and the RF mount...

Tiny crop cameras, M mount.... no question about it....
Smaller FF cameras, definitely the RF mount.....
Larger FF cameras, over time I think more and more will transit to RF mount, but there may still remain a few EF mount cameras, even in 10 years time....

The interesting possibility that I have been pondering for quite some time is, is the crop rebel going to be replaced by the FF rebel? If you imagine an R mount crop camera, what does it really take to make it a FF camera? All you have to do is replace the sensor.... all the other electronics remains the same.... Now wouldn't that bust the bargain camera marketplace wide open :)
 

pj1974

EOS Rebel SL2
Oct 18, 2011
563
21
Adelaide, Australia
#55
?

I tend to agree with you.... in the long term, the M mount and the RF mount...

Tiny crop cameras, M mount.... no question about it....
Smaller FF cameras, definitely the RF mount.....
Larger FF cameras, over time I think more and more will transit to RF mount, but there may still remain a few EF mount cameras, even in 10 years time....

The interesting possibility that I have been pondering for quite some time is, is the crop rebel going to be replaced by the FF rebel? If you imagine an R mount crop camera, what does it really take to make it a FF camera? All you have to do is replace the sensor.... all the other electronics remains the same.... Now wouldn't that bust the bargain camera marketplace wide open :)
Yes, will be interesting if the future will contain more 'larger' M mount, OR - yes as you suggest "a crop sensored R Mount".
That the EOS R camera came out with the ability to use EF-S lenses (via the adapter) was something I did not expect...
But it actually has me excited it can. Particularly as I have a few EF-S lenses I love, and would serve well for photography (albeit at 12MP), as well as the current 4K video crop.

So I do appreciate, that Canon may have looked at the option of placing a APS-C sensor in an R mount mirrorless camera body. If that's the 7D, or a 'Rebel FF' (or both) - remains to be seen.

Cheers,

PJ