Flip out displays -- why the resentment?

[JerryBruck]

Bought a 60D as my first dslr, in part because of what Canon calls the "Vari-angle" monitor, aka "articulating display" or flip-screen. This was high on my fierce little list as a Must and has proven even more useful and important to me than imagined. Video, I admit, is my eventual destination but it's been all still photography for six months and here also flipper is essential.

Let me count the ways: for angles all the way down to ground level, or eighteen inches above your eyes, this allows you to frame without stretching out flat on the street or in the mud, or climbing a tree or a drainpipe -- landscape afficianados take note! A minority of circumstances perhaps but a disproportionate source of winners. Essential for reportage, especially the high shots. Easier for journalists to conceal what they're up to -- the sneaks can face away from a subject.

Very very useful for portraiture out of the studio and even more for self-portraits or any kind of cheap wireless remote shooting.

Two considerations that hadn't occurred: swiveling the monitor away leaves a nice recess for the nose when using the OVF. Leaving the monitor screen turned inwards in the closed position protects it completely from scratching. (I leave it in this position most of the time when shooting too -- I find less and less need to check it when conditions are familiar. When I do use the screen, it's opened out to the left; there are no greasy smears on it.)

In video where pulling focus matters, a good loupe becomes an attractive alternative to a heavy and expensive external monitor, to name just one advantage.

So what's the beef? Why do so many dedicated Canoneers seem to choke on their lens caps over this? I've seen the argument that flip screens preclude weather-proofing, yet for years and years cheap flip-screen video-cams have been guaranteed waterproof to at least ten feet! And they work -- I've used them. The arrangement increases fragility? The opposite is true. It hogs valuable real-estate at the expense or more buttons? There's still plenty of empty space on the 60D my right thumb could reach.

The argument from stills-only shooters that they must now pay for all these unwanted "video" features seems misconceived too, since even if this was only about movies, the mass entry of videographers into this market, just now getting underway, should help keep prices down for everyone.

Sorry to have gone on so long! It looks like Canon is leaving Vari-angle out of the high end once again. What am I overlooking?

 

[Eye_Broccoli]

I will admit my initial downplaying of having an articulated LCD on anything but a P&S or a video camera. My first camera was an XSi and having the live view with magnification was nice for manual focus/macro, but I never the feature besides that.

When the 60D came out it seemed like the xxD line was going downhill (40D ISO performance versus the 50D's anyone?) but I still wanted an upgrade with a larger body and better controls. Unable to justify the extra cost of a 7D for my needs, I bought it and now having used it for a year I can say that I've been able to pull off shots with 10x the confidence and haven't wished the screen was fixed at any time. It's protected when closed up, lets me shoot over railings without guessing the focus, and lets me make sure everyone is framed right when the occasional family photo comes up. Candid street shots are easier too.

To me it seems the biggest worry for other people (other than the stigma around it) is that it will break with constant use. Whether that has any truth behind it isn't for me to say, but personally it's something that can either be used if needed, or ignored completely without any obvious downsides.

Now just give me Servo AF Sensitivity control and I'll be good.

 

[JerryBruck]

Thanks Eye-Broccoli, you've given me a better understanding of the unhappiness. "Stigma" is a word that hadn't occurred to me in connection with the "Vari-angle".

For readers not accustomed to reaching high or low I attach some examples of what I've been talking about -- I see I'll have to do this in installments.

 

[JerryBruck]

Attachments, #2 of 2

 

[boateggs]

I've been wondering this too. In several 5d3/7d2 threads, there seems to be many who would rather switch to Nikon than have an articulating screen on the new models and I can't figure out why all hate for them. Then again I am relatively new to the DSLR world. I hope that the 7d2 will have one or the 70d will get AFMA back

 

[dr croubie]

I'll certainly put my name down as one who didn't initially like the vari-angle display. When I bought my 7D, it was that, or 50D, or 550D, they weren't on the market then, but I'd still buy the 7D again even with added choices of 600D and 60D.

But there's times I wish I had one, taking photos of baby birds in a nest yesterday, with an MF lens on an extension tube and live view, I could barely reach my hand high enough and could only just see the screen. Taking very (very) low-angle shots to try out the new tripod too, it was hovering 1cm above the floor pointing straight up, I just had to guess roughly where I was pointing (up a spiral staircase) and stick the remote-control on.
No cheek/nose marks on the screen would be nice too, but i'm always reviewing shots so it would get tiresome flipping back and forward too often.

I'll certainly believe Canon if they come up with a way to make a flip-screen 7D2 with the same waterproofing as the current 7D model. But can they sell it for the same price?

The main reason I wouldn't buy one (on a camera that gets as much abuse as my 7D, if i were a 'normal' consumer I might consider a flip-screen more seriously), is the fragility. I've worked at the company that repairs almost every mobile phone in The Netherlands that breaks, and I've seen way too many clam-shell phones go through there that got sat on or walked on, even just fell shell-open-side-down onto the floor and bent too far backwards. If they can make on that can take a 'pro' level of abuse, I'd certainly consider it (even if i'm not a pro, sometimes i treat my equipment a bit like it).

An external LCD-screen with HDMI-plug, and hot-shoe mounted/powered (or battery powered) would be very nice and probably better for my occasional needs. I'm pretty sure they exist, but I don't need it often enough to justify more expense...

 

[distant.star]

I think it has a lot of potential use in many situations. My hope is that it's available on my next body -- waiting for release of something in the 5D3 range to decide. I like the "flipper" designation.

 

[neuroanatomist]

You won't find it on high end cameras because it's a cheap, gimmicky consumer crutch. Real photographers don't want it. Real photographers don't need it. Real photographers can compose shots perfectly with their eyes closed. If you want a lazy crutch, get a cheap point and shoot. Or stop whining and be a real photographer - take that wide Canon-branded strap off your high-end camera, tie it around your eyes, and just shoot away.

 

[bigblue1ca]

Real photographers can compose shots perfectly with their eyes closed.

Lol.

Real photographers like lying on their stomachs in the dirt and muck to compose images from ground level.

Real photographers prefer to spray and pray when forced to shoot around a corner (long story) instead of using the LCD at 90 degrees to compose the image.

 

[Eye_Broccoli]

This might by slightly OT, but with a feature like the Vari-Angle screen on a camera that makes live-view something that could get used more often, has anyone run into issues of increased grain while shooting with the screen for any period of time? Not specifically the 60D though, but any camera with LV.

I haven't been able to nail down if it's all in my head and generally viewing prints on-screen, but it seems that if I'm doing a bunch of shots with the sensor running with LV I'll get hit with more noise than usual. It makes sense from a technical perspective along the lines of why SLR's have a time/thermal limit for video capture, but an end to that argument would be good.

 

[distant.star]

If your pictures all come out upside down because you got tangled up in that neckstrap...

you might be a real photographer!

 

[Harley]

It's an interesting question.

I'm one of those who has absolutely no interest in owning a camera with an articulated screen. I saved up for a 7D rather than buy a 60D mostly because of that articulated screen. But why the resentment? I'm not entirely sure...

I get all the arguments for the screen. I understand it's usefulness. I also like the video features that my dSLR has despite my primary use being for stills.

Fragility is definitely an issue for me -- I go places where my camera gets abused and I don't want the extra risk of that articulated screen. Maybe it's because it seems rather gimmicky to me, too -- it's not a camcorder, it's a dSLR. Maybe I just haven't used one and I would change my mind if I did but I just don't want one on my camera. I don't like using live view anyway and I cannot see myself ever buying an SLR with articulated LCD.

However, for those that do want one, well, to each their own and long live the 60D!

 

[kdsand]

Cotton picken darn it all don't have the thing shoot movies because then that ain't a real camera!

What the heck? SD card..... hmmm there must be some reason to insist on CF cards. That's right with my bad eye sight I can find them ity bity SD cards.


The 60D Having a rotating screen isnt a necessity for me but I do like it and has come in very handy on many occasions. Just yesterday I was shooting on the ground under an arched tree branch moss and mushrooms growing along a second fallen tree. I must add this was on the bank of a ravine with melt swollen stream two feet away. The swivel screen made the task easy er and a tad bit more accurate.

I flip it closed out of habit to prevent scratches.

So far I say give me everything --- as long as I'm not sacrificing core functionality and durability.

 

[gene_can_sing]

Resentment of Flip Screens is because many Photogs are of the "it's always been that way" train of thought. Photography and cinematography is an every changing artform, and evolving with techniques and technology is a major part of the equation.

I have been working on a music video with the 60D. For B-Roll, we've been doing a lot of Time Lapses from really strange angles. On several instances, the camera was mounted to a bike and pointed back at my arm (I was the arm double for the lead singer). I had to do this shot on my own on another day after the main shoot. There was ZERO chance that I could have done this without a Flip Screen. No even remotely possible, no chance. With a flip screen, it was a breeze. Without the flip screen, I would have had to guess over and over again.

I usually use a Z-Finder so the flip screen stays locked up most of the time. But it is invaluable for certain shots. The Flip Screen just helps you with your creativity and to get what you want.

I guess most people on the forum just like very straight forward, traditional photography. If that fine with you, then you probably don't need a flip screen. But for those off-kilter, odd angle shots, you need the Flip.

As for the fragility issue, that pretty much a crock. I've abuse the crap out of my equipment over the years, and have never once broken a flip screen on any point and shoot, DSLR or video camera that I have ever owned. With just a hint of common sense and thought, it can be easily avoided.

 

[pwp]

You won't find it on high end cameras because it's a cheap, gimmicky consumer crutch. Real photographers don't want it. Real photographers don't need it. Real photographers can compose shots perfectly with their eyes closed. If you want a lazy crutch, get a cheap point and shoot. Or stop whining and be a real photographer - take that wide Canon-branded strap off your high-end camera, tie it around your eyes, and just shoot away.

Far from triggering any feelings any resentfulness, this thread has made me genuinely consider getting a 60D body as an occasional use spare third body precisely because it does have the articulating screen.

To suggest real photographers don't want or need an articulating screen is a little bit of a stretch. The 60D just provides us with more choice and creative options. As a 25+ years very busy professional I think I'd probably qualify as real. Most work is done on 1-Series bodies, and a 60D certainly wouldn't cut it as a primary body in my situation, but I think we're all fortunate to have the choice of an inexpensive articulating screen body that will shoot RAW and take our good Canon glass.

In any real photographers life there will be times when an articulating screen may provide a highly viable solution to a creative conundrum. And of course there is also the never to be underestimated fun factor.

Paul Wright

 

[Rocky]

Most of the people that resent it has never use one. The flip screen is a useful tool that let you shoot at all kind of odd angles and let you see exactly what you will get. If you are talking about "tradition", waist level finders has been around since 1930's. The flip screen is effectively a waist level finder and then some. The flip screen can be durable if it is done correctly. We had a G1 for more than 7 years and never have any problem. If Canon can make the screen of 7D weather proof, it can also make the flip screen weather proof. Flip screen is a good tool to have.

 

[sparda79]

I have been at an "event" where I had arrived early to gain a good "vantage point" (higher) only to have others arrive later and proceed to shove there vari-angle screen cameras above there heads and into my shot yer they got "that shot", but not very considerate to everyone else.

LOL... A friend of my complaints about this too...

 

[Narcolepsy]

As for the fragility issue, that pretty much a crock. I've abuse the crap out of my equipment over the years, and have never once broken a flip screen on any point and shoot, DSLR or video camera that I have ever owned. With just a hint of common sense and thought, it can be easily avoided.

I broke the flip screen on a Fuji s9600 twice - normal use, no trauma - just stopped working...

 

[Canon-F1]

I broke the flip screen on a Fuji s9600 twice - normal use, no trauma - just stopped working...

same here.

i had 4 cameras with a flip/swivel screen and in the end they all are defective because of the screen. so my guess is the flip screens are somewhat problematic.

 

[NormanBates]

RE: external HDMI screen
this is suboptimal:
* relatively expensive (zacuto EVF, without the loupe: $675)
* no matter how much you spend, it can't be trusted for accurate color reproduction (i.e. nothing is more accurate than the built-in screen) (Shane Hurlbut dixit)

RE: frailty
two solutions:
* for high-end models: make the flip-out screen module all-metal
* for mid-end and low-end models: make sure the hinge is sturdy enough, and make sure the screen has a secure fold-in position (i.e. if you're about to abuse the camera, just keep the screen folded, and it should be secure)