1Dx M2 Sensor Resolution - Back of envelop estimate

[unfocused]

I am at a loss now,

were the last two posts serious or just subtle jabs at his intelligence?

I'm serious. If this is the same individual who has posted in the past under other names, he is very intelligent but also very obsessive and has issues that goes far beyond the normal psychosis you find on internet forums. Some folks, not realizing how seriously obsessed he is, try to bait him and he always takes the bait, eventually doing something that gets him banned. It's painful to watch as it spirals out of control.

 

[takesome1]

Also your statement in post 50;

"Just don't fall into the trap of saying the noise increases with less light= higher iso.

The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher."

You added the words higher ISO to the quote.
This made your statement incorrect.

IMO Eric Fossum's statement is correct, yours is not.

 

[takesome1]

I am at a loss now,

were the last two posts serious or just subtle jabs at his intelligence?

I'm serious. If this is the same individual who has posted in the past under other names, he is very intelligent but also very obsessive and has issues that goes far beyond the normal psychosis you find on internet forums. Some folks, not realizing how seriously obsessed he is, try to bait him and he always takes the bait, eventually doing something that gets him banned. It's painful to watch as it spirals out of control.

Maybe Neuro has his IP address and knows he is the one and the same. If it is as bad as you say being banned is not a bad thing for him, especially on this forum full of sharks and wolves.

 

[Loswr]

Also your statement in post 50;
"Just don't fall into the trap of saying the noise increases with less light= higher iso.
The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher."
You added the words higher ISO to the quote.
This made your statement incorrect.

IMO Eric Fossum's statement is correct, yours is not.

That is the difference between someone who actually understands sensor physics and a predictably pathetic poseur pretending percipience.

 

[scyrene]

Also your statement in post 50;
"Just don't fall into the trap of saying the noise increases with less light= higher iso.
The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher."
You added the words higher ISO to the quote.
This made your statement incorrect.

IMO Eric Fossum's statement is correct, yours is not.

That is the difference between someone who actually understands sensor physics and a predictably pathetic poseur pretending percipience.

There's such a thing as *too much* alliteration

 

[Northstar]

Why does my 1dx have a setting (that I use frequently) called High ISO noise reduction?

A) It's there to pacify you, like the 'close door' button in some elevators that when pushed makes no electrical contact click because there's no wiring behind it

B) It's there because Canon doesn't understand sensor physics, and thinks there's more noise at higher ISO

C) It's there because Canon thinks Mikael is correct that there's less noise at higher ISO, but has caved in to the prevailing mindset of the real world that believes high ISO means more noise, so Canon uses the setting as part of a conspiracy theory to hide the truth

D) It's part of an Easter egg - if you enable that setting along with certain others, while disabling certain other settings, your 1D X will actually make popcorn...with butter and salt.

;D

awesome comedy Neuro! I especially like A and D!

 

[raptor3x]

It is interesting what kind of answers I get in this thread where the issue was whether higher ISO causes higher noise as Neuro say, I say NO in my answer 50

some of you would have a red card and not yellow card as Eric Fossum suggest in this discussion and when it comes to objectivity

keep it simple

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56401387
Eric is the inventor of active cmos and hold hundreds of patents
http://www.ericfossum.com/Patents/Full%20Patent%20List.htm

This is what Eric Fossum said ;
"Yellow card. Just don't fall into the trap of saying the noise increases with less light.
The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher."

This is what Neuro said;
"Higher ISO means more noise which means larger files"

Less Light and Higher ISO are not interchangeable words. Less light refers to the volume of light. Higher ISO is sensitivity/amplification of the signal.

Sorry but with your own backup and proof you lost your point.
You should have stopped earlier.

nope and yes, what Neuro said was that noise increase with higher iso, and thats plain wrong, se my earlier answer 50

Bringing ISO into the picture implies that you're including the effect of amplification in which case yes, the noise does increase as ISO is increased.

 

[Loswr]

awesome comedy Neuro! I especially like A and D!

Thanks!

 

[scyrene]

awesome comedy Neuro! I especially like A and D!

Thanks!

does higher iso increase noise Neuro??
yes or no

comedy or not, why not use the right terminology regarding signal/noise
and that noise doesn't increase with higher iso

You seem to want to ask questions but not answer them. Here's one: does an image taken at higher ISO (of the same scene yadda yadda) have more noise or less than one at lower ISO?

 

[3kramd5]

awesome comedy Neuro! I especially like A and D!

Thanks!

does higher iso increase noise Neuro??
yes or no

comedy or not, why not use the right terminology regarding signal/noise
and that noise doesn't increase with higher iso

Qualify your question. Are you asking about the relationship if you just count read noise for saturation at the sensor level?

Or are you asking about the image level?

 

[Loswr]

There's such a thing as *too much* alliteration

Truly, that thought traipsed tentatively through the tête...then tripped tragically.

 

[3kramd5]

There's such a thing as *too much* alliteration

Truly, that thought traipsed tentatively through the tête...then tripped tragically.

touché.

 

[takesome1]

It is interesting what kind of answers I get in this thread where the issue was whether higher ISO causes higher noise as Neuro say, I say NO in my answer 50

some of you would have a red card and not yellow card as Eric Fossum suggest in this discussion and when it comes to objectivity

keep it simple

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56401387
Eric is the inventor of active cmos and hold hundreds of patents
http://www.ericfossum.com/Patents/Full%20Patent%20List.htm

This is what Eric Fossum said ;
"Yellow card. Just don't fall into the trap of saying the noise increases with less light.
The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher."

This is what Neuro said;
"Higher ISO means more noise which means larger files"

Less Light and Higher ISO are not interchangeable words. Less light refers to the volume of light. Higher ISO is sensitivity/amplification of the signal.

Sorry but with your own backup and proof you lost your point.
You should have stopped earlier.

yes, what Neuro said was that noise increase with higher iso, and thats plain wrong, se my earlier answer 50, noise doesn't increase, the signal = captures photons/generated electrons are less

I think Neuro have realized that he is plain wrong but he would not admit the facts

Let Canon answer it for you;
"In low light, the signal is weak. If you increase the amplification by setting a higher ISO rating, you increase both the signal and the background noise, and the noise becomes significant."

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/exposure_settings/digital_noise.do

Eric Fossum's quote you use was not about the effect of ISO on noise. You will have to find a different quote to back up.

 

[raptor3x]

I have already explain that , read back about noise and amplification
the purpose is to inform Neuro and others that noise doesn't increases with higher iso as Neuro states

then anyone can defame my post, answer with childish comments, but physics laws apply
noise doesn't increase with higher iso

The big problem here is still that you're comparing a few different meanings of noise in a way that just results in a meaningless jumble.

First, what Eric Fossum was referring to in the post you linked was Poisson noise, or shot noise. Shot noise scales as the square root of the signal so "The noise is lower with less light, but the noise-to-signal ratio gets higher." is absolutely correct. You equated higher ISO with less light and that's just plainly incorrect, they're not the same thing.

Second, the values in the table you're referencing are called input referred noise values. This essentially tells you how many photons the read noise is equivalent to at the current gain; useful for comparing the relative effects of the read noise and shot noise. An important thing to understand is that the actual noise introduced by the electronics (the read noise) does not change at all with the ISO value or the amount of light hitting the sensor. It's primarily a function of sensor design and temperature. The important criteria for determining read noise in the resulting image is called the output referred noise. This has units of ADU and represents, mostly, what's actually written to the RAW file. The output referred noise, not just the noise to signal ratio, absolutely increases with higher ISO.

I'm sorry but you just clearly don't understand the sources you're quoting.

 

[zim]

I'm serious. If this is the same individual who has posted in the past under other names, he is very intelligent but also very obsessive and has issues that goes far beyond the normal psychosis you find on internet forums. Some folks, not realizing how seriously obsessed he is, try to bait him and he always takes the bait, eventually doing something that gets him banned. It's painful to watch as it spirals out of control.

+1
If indeed it is the same person, and the style certainly looks like it, I seem to recall he admitted to having some diagnosed issues. I'd ask anyone replying to him to first consider this. He clearly has issues, not engaging is probable in his best interests too.

 

[tpatana]

Yes.

 

[bdunbar79]

So if I take an exposure at 1/125s, f/4, ISO 100 and then just turn the ISO up to 800, same everything else, the ISO 800 shot doesn't contain more noise? If not, then why is the DR lower?

 

[scyrene]

Most of you have difficulty understanding the signal / noise ratio and that noise doesn't increase with higher iso
is it not better if Neuro answer the question, he is claiming that noise increases with higher ISO
So Neuro does noise increase with higher is
yes or no

Oh we're not having difficulties at all. You're ignoring our points, and targeting Neuro. Both are rather poor forum etiquette (not least because you're pursuing a line that is at best obtuse, and at worst incorrect). Hey ho.

 

[bdunbar79]

Ok, I'll ask again. Equal exposures, ISO 100 has the same noise level as ISO 400?

 

[bdunbar79]

Anyone.