1DX Mark II underexposed and pushed 5 stops from RAW image

[Loswr]

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

The current 1D X has that ability. Granted, certainly not 5 stops worth of it...but outside of taking images for the express purpose of pushing them 5 stops to post on the Internet, when and how often did you last need to push shadows that hard? I never have, not even close. If it's a requirement for your photography, you're not shooting Canon anymore anyway.

 

[tpatana]

To push 5 stops, what all dials I have to move and how much on LR? I'd like to try that now on the pics I have from 1DX.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Yay!!!!! I've been waiting soooooooooo long for Canon to have sensors that I can drastically underexpose then push 5-stops in post. I'm dumbfounded that I've been able to take any pictures at all until now. I'm going to preorder the 1D X II immediately!!!

Pretty soon, we will be seeing photos with the lens cap on. That should really convince you.

 

[J.R.]

The pushed raw files look very good to me.

My biggest use of more DR will be for wildlife photos where I can underexpose by a couple of stops getting faster shutter speed. For almost everything else which needs higher DR, I'm good because I bracket my exposures anyway.

 

[memoriaphoto]

I am surprised that Canon didn't mention the improvement in its press releases though.

I'm not actually.

1) it seems Canon is now finally on par with its competitors in terms of read-out noise / DR and that is not really something you want to bring to everybody's attention. Instead they use more careful announcements such as "high latitude" sensor.

2) they know DR has been discussed all over the internet and before any "scores" and reviews have been official, I think they stay away from claiming any actual improvements (everyone will start asking nerdy questions anyway like "how many stops?")

3) don't compete in-house. Canon is still selling 1DX and many other pro/semipro models. Praising the new sensordesign too much could be risky.

4) Many pros and potential buyers have no issues, nor have they heard anything about lacking DR in the existing line-up

I am sure that we will hear a bit more from Canon about the improved sensordesign once the model hits the stores and 1DX slowly fades away. But I don't expect them to wear a sandwich board and ring a bell.

I think they are doing this right.

 

[midluk]

My biggest use of more DR will be for wildlife photos where I can underexpose by a couple of stops getting faster shutter speed.

Even with the improved DR you will still get better images with just increasing the ISO in the camera. As already written in the second post: the noise of ISO 100 pushed to ISO 3200 looks like for a native setting of ISO 6400. So an equally bright image taken with native ISO 3200 will have less noise.
It's just useful when you have accidentally underexposed, so the losses will be less compared to images taken with less DR, and if you can't increase the ISO to save highlights while you don't want to or can not (moving subject, no tripod) use bracketing.

 

[fegari]

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

The current 1D X has that ability. Granted, certainly not 5 stops worth of it...but outside of taking images for the express purpose of pushing them 5 stops to post on the Internet, when and how often did you last need to push shadows that hard? I never have, not even close. If it's a requirement for your photography, you're not shooting Canon anymore anyway.

Oh my god, thank you. I've just realized that I've been shooting wrong all these years pushing all my pics 5 stops!

How about for once not debating a single user's example and extrapolating that for the whole community of shooters around the world and realizing that improvement in the shadow areas will benefit the IQ across the board. Will make your life easier in a number of situations and for a bunch of photographers.

Let's wait for more examples of what the 1DXII brings to the table in terms of improvements to try and generalize but based on the 5 push shot, looks an improvement in the right direction.

Or would you have preferred they reduced the DR range instead?

 

[jebrady03]

Ok, so here's an example of where I have used multiple stops in the real world with my 6D and the results, I assume, aren't as good as they would have been with a camera which featured on-sensor ADC.

I shoot manual everything. I expose for my subjects face outdoors. When waiting for the perfect expression, the cloud cover changes right about the time that my subject is doing exactly what I want (2.5 year old daughter). I don't have the time to both capture the expression/pose/moment AND change ISO/aperture/shutter speed (whichever) so I choose to capture the moment. Her face, more specifically her eyes, due to now-present cloud cover, are a good 3 stops underexposed. The rest of her face needs some lightening as well. So, I go about carefully raising exposure locally all over her face. In the darkest areas (her eyes), I end up raising exposure even further. By the time I'm finished and happy with the exposure, the details look crunchy with all kinds of extra noise. So, I can choose to smooth it out with NR or leave it as is. Given that I've nailed the focus, I can sacrifice some sharpness so I apply some local NR and then try to sharpen a tad to make up for the loss. In fact, I try all kinds of combinations to achieve the results I want. This takes a lot of time, and a lot of work. Obviously bracketing isn't possible. However, if I had a sensor which didn't introduce a massive amount of noise when shadows were raised, this would have been MUCH easier to deal with in post. And it would have provided a better result.

Some will say to use Auto ISO, but I find that due to the fact that the 6D lacks metering tied to the AF point and that I'm constantly changing the AF point, I find that the 6D usually underexposes if I rely on Auto ISO. And EC isn't available in full manual. So, this is another improvement I'm looking for in my next Canon DSLR - metering tied to the AF point so I can rely on Auto ISO.

Those two improvements (on-sensor ADC plus AF point linked metering), plus a wider spread of AF points, along with AF points which are cross type (or especially dual cross type) closer to the intersections of the 1/3 lines will DEFINITELY get me to upgrade. Those 3 improvements will make my photographic goals MUCH easier to accomplish, and likely with better results. If this feature set is in the 6D Mark II, AWESOME! If it's in the 5D Mark IV, not so awesome as the body is bigger than I want (the 70D is perfect for me and the 6D is doable). So... I've got some waiting to do, but I'm eagerly anticipating the announcements...

 

[lux]

I spend a lot of time at ISO 3200-6400 and would love to have a couple stops of less noise...obviously on a cheaper camera than this. If this has a couple stops better noise and that trickles down to 5div or 6d2 I would consider upgrading. Not sure what else would have me upgrade from my 6d and 7d2 combination. Don't worry. Canon will still get my money I'll just buy glass instead.

 

[jebrady03]

I spend a lot of time at ISO 3200-6400 and would love to have a couple stops of less noise...obviously on a cheaper camera than this. If this has a couple stops better noise and that trickles down to 5div or 6d2 I would consider upgrading. Not sure what else would have me upgrade from my 6d and 7d2 combination. Don't worry. Canon will still get my money I'll just buy glass instead.

The biggest noise improvement will be at low ISO (100), 2-3 stops is my guess. By 800-6400, I think Canon camera buyers will be fortunate to have a full stop of improvement and it'll likely be less than that. Just my guess.

 

[quod]

Sure, I think it's great. But I have no issues with noise at low ISO currently, nor issues with low ISO DR that can be solved by two more stops of it. Those who do are clearly a very small minority of users. But if this helps them, wonderful.

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

Yes, but five stops? I can see two, even unto three, but five is right out. I'd like someone to show me a real-world scene for which you'd want to pull shadows five stops, or even four.

My last trip to Iceland had several. Seriously, do you only shoot in controlled lighting situations?

 

[Loswr]

Sure, I think it's great. But I have no issues with noise at low ISO currently, nor issues with low ISO DR that can be solved by two more stops of it. Those who do are clearly a very small minority of users. But if this helps them, wonderful.

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

Yes, but five stops? I can see two, even unto three, but five is right out. I'd like someone to show me a real-world scene for which you'd want to pull shadows five stops, or even four.

My last trip to Iceland had several. Seriously, do you only shoot in controlled lighting situations?

The examples you posted in response make your point very effectively. :

 

[East Wind Photography]

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

The current 1D X has that ability. Granted, certainly not 5 stops worth of it...but outside of taking images for the express purpose of pushing them 5 stops to post on the Internet, when and how often did you last need to push shadows that hard? I never have, not even close. If it's a requirement for your photography, you're not shooting Canon anymore anyway.

Neuro, i firmly believe the art of photography has been lost by most. Too many lazy photographers out that dont want to take the extra mile to get it right. They just want a point and shoot solution and deal with it in post or better let someone else deal with it in post.

 

[RGF]

Sure, I think it's great. But I have no issues with noise at low ISO currently, nor issues with low ISO DR that can be solved by two more stops of it. Those who do are clearly a very small minority of users. But if this helps them, wonderful.

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

Yes, but five stops? I can see two, even unto three, but five is right out. I'd like someone to show me a real-world scene for which you'd want to pull shadows five stops, or even four.

What about an HDR where the bright area is the exposed for the Sun or sunlight and something is in shadows? There could easily be more than 5 stops difference.

Whether the need is for 3, 4, 5 or ... the point is that dark areas can be pulled up, minimizing the need to HDR.

 

[Orangutan]

Sure, I think it's great. But I have no issues with noise at low ISO currently, nor issues with low ISO DR that can be solved by two more stops of it. Those who do are clearly a very small minority of users. But if this helps them, wonderful.

Sarcasm aside, the ability to pull up dark shades without noise is useful. Granted this type of DR would be more beneficial in a 5D series body.

Yes, but five stops? I can see two, even unto three, but five is right out. I'd like someone to show me a real-world scene for which you'd want to pull shadows five stops, or even four.

What about an HDR where the bright area is the exposed for the Sun or sunlight and something is in shadows? There could easily be more than 5 stops difference.

Pulled shadows do not display the same image quality as properly exposed areas, I'm not sure that would give an acceptable HDR image result.

The nice part of this is that, in a few months, some of the members here will get there hands on one and be able to do some of these test shots. There is no dispute that being able to pull shadows is useful, the question is whether it's a substitute for proper exposure.

 

[Loswr]

Neuro, i firmly believe the art of photography has been lost by most. Too many lazy photographers out that dont want to take the extra mile to get it right. They just want a point and shoot solution and deal with it in post or better let someone else deal with it in post.

Perhaps. Certainly as a society we're getting lazier. But also, aesthetic is a personal thing. Some people prefer an artificial looking image, and pushing shadows 5 stops is one way to achieve that look.

 

[3kramd5]

There is no dispute that being able to pull shadows is useful, the question is whether it's a substitute for proper exposure.

It isn't, really. You can make shadow areas brighter, but you can't add detail to them that wasn't recorded due to underexposure.

 

[Orangutan]

There is no dispute that being able to pull shadows is useful, the question is whether it's a substitute for proper exposure.

It isn't, really. You can make shadow areas brighter, but you can't add detail to them that wasn't recorded due to underexposure.

Yeah, I knew that: it was an educational question.

To be fair, the 5-stop-pull proponents would claim that it's not an issue of creating new detail, but revealing dim detail without introducing noise. You can do some of that, just not 5 stops (IMO).

 

[privatebydesign]

Ok, so here's an example of where I have used multiple stops in the real world with my 6D and the results, I assume, aren't as good as they would have been with a camera which featured on-sensor ADC.

I shoot manual everything. I expose for my subjects face outdoors. When waiting for the perfect expression, the cloud cover changes right about the time that my subject is doing exactly what I want (2.5 year old daughter). I don't have the time to both capture the expression/pose/moment AND change ISO/aperture/shutter speed (whichever) so I choose to capture the moment. Her face, more specifically her eyes, due to now-present cloud cover, are a good 3 stops underexposed. The rest of her face needs some lightening as well. So, I go about carefully raising exposure locally all over her face. In the darkest areas (her eyes), I end up raising exposure even further. By the time I'm finished and happy with the exposure, the details look crunchy with all kinds of extra noise. So, I can choose to smooth it out with NR or leave it as is. Given that I've nailed the focus, I can sacrifice some sharpness so I apply some local NR and then try to sharpen a tad to make up for the loss. In fact, I try all kinds of combinations to achieve the results I want. This takes a lot of time, and a lot of work. Obviously bracketing isn't possible. However, if I had a sensor which didn't introduce a massive amount of noise when shadows were raised, this would have been MUCH easier to deal with in post. And it would have provided a better result.

Some will say to use Auto ISO, but I find that due to the fact that the 6D lacks metering tied to the AF point and that I'm constantly changing the AF point, I find that the 6D usually underexposes if I rely on Auto ISO. And EC isn't available in full manual. So, this is another improvement I'm looking for in my next Canon DSLR - metering tied to the AF point so I can rely on Auto ISO.

Those two improvements (on-sensor ADC plus AF point linked metering), plus a wider spread of AF points, along with AF points which are cross type (or especially dual cross type) closer to the intersections of the 1/3 lines will DEFINITELY get me to upgrade. Those 3 improvements will make my photographic goals MUCH easier to accomplish, and likely with better results. If this feature set is in the 6D Mark II, AWESOME! If it's in the 5D Mark IV, not so awesome as the body is bigger than I want (the 70D is perfect for me and the 6D is doable). So... I've got some waiting to do, but I'm eagerly anticipating the announcements...

I don't see why Av or Tv mode with EC wouldn't work rather than trying to force M mode to work where the light is changing faster than you can. You know the meter reads x value different to how you want the exposure, so that is the basic EC value, then just wind in more or less as you want the subject exposed. Done. However slow you are to react, or the metering isn't done from the AF point, it will give you a close enough exposure of the subject to not need to lift so heavily.

Two other factors, one, lifting exposure in post will never be as good, despite what DPReview might say, as getting the exposure right, so it seems you need to work your camera better than the sensor work better. And two, if you want all the features you desire for the money of a 6D, buy a 1DS MkIII.

 

[cpsico]

All that dynamic range is great but it will never ever replace proper use of lighting in portrait photos. It won't make the wrong time of day for a great landscape shot anything but the wrong time, for using pushing images to achieve faster shutter speeds it would be awesome. I would very happy to have a camera like the 1dxII