1Dx simple DR stress test
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Mikael Risedal said:
No, i've had the discussion where, at some point, if Sony is outright making the best sensors by far that it would be fine/great if they were put in Canon SLRs to be used with the excellent lineup of lenses.
I would like to see what the new sensor tech on the coming Canon big MP sensor is like. If Canon is able to trump the image quality and dynamic range of even the Sony sensors, as is rumored, then no further discussion or ongoing comparisons, even in the future, is needed. ever.
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Neutral said:
I still haven't got my hands on one of these so thanks for posting some examples showing where the 1DX's noise limitations are at base ISO.
That's exactly the kind of info I need to verify that my original decision to not buy one (and get 2 D800s instead) was the correct decision for this year.
1Dx is looking like Canon's best performance in a long time as far as FPN, just still not good enough for when I need to really push raw files to extremes. (which I still find incomprehensible that some people don't understand why this capability is desirable)
@ Mikael Risedal:
There are many of us here on CR who understand and agree with your assertion about the serious difference in sensor performance. Some of us were even doing the same thing here in the past so don't worry, most CR readers have already been slightly overexposed (couldn't resist the pun) to this information.
However, escalating the strength of your argument will do little to convince anyone. Human nature is just to push back when someone is challenging them.
Anyone with an open enough mind will see the data and understand what it means.
Those who don't likely don't care and it's wasted effort trying to convert their way of thinking to yours. These are likely people who are already fairly satisfied with how the images look direct from their camera and likely don't do a lot of DR compression in post-processing. That's an understandable choice.
I'm sure you don't always push shadows in your shots either, and when you don't, the FP noise of Canon's sensors doesn't likely have any serious impact on your images. (I'm being generous to Canon here as there have been plenty of shots with my 5D2 where vertical banding artifacts showed up in properly exposed midtones and even in lighter shadows, nearly ruining some shots that any decent camera would not have a problem with)
I still shoot Canon because I like the bodies and lenses and, in many cases, the image quality is perfectly acceptable for whatever purpose I need.
I added Nikon to my collection because I know there are times I will need to push those raw files and so I use the best camera for that job.
At the end of the argument, that is what you would hope to acheive, yes? Convince some Canon users to try SoNikon-Pentax if they've found their Canon camera not quite up to the job. Some of us now do shoot with these other cameras and some have even completely given up their Canon gear to do that so this battle should really be over.
@ world
Yesterday I was out enjoying a fine autumn night, shooting some dark skylines with my D800 and D5100. I was getting raw files, which I used when I got back home, to create images that I could not, no way in heck, ever make with my Canon cameras. Seriously, no bluddy way. I would not even waste my time trying (again) to use a Canon for such shots. They would not be impossible to do with a Canon camera, just would be far more work compared to a single shot I can take with the super-clean low ISO Nikons.
A Canon-only user would have needed to be content with the limitations of their single shot of such scenes or spend a lot of time bracketing to try capture it and still end up with a lot of compromises.
Feels good to have the right tools available when you need them.
Also feels good to have made the choice to get those tools.
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RLPhoto said:
it's not the DR so much as the FPN
FPN is just ugly
take the old D90 for example
only 1 stop better DR at it's 200 ISO base than a 5D3 but that old D90 has a very random noise characteristic which is much more acceptable than the stripey noise most Canon bodies produce.
When it comes down to the gritty, I think even Mikael Risedal would prefer a camera with one stop less DR if it didn't have FPN to contend with.
I would.
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RLPhoto
Gear doesn't matter, Just a Matter of Convenience.
Aglet said:
You've seen what I can do with a raw file, I understand Nikon has a better sensor. Big whoop.
I could still get great photos on 35mm film, a d30, MF film, or even a 4x5. Doesn't matter to me, I just prefer how the canon camera gets out of my way.
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Exactly, photography is about FACTS and NUMBERS
Nothing unmeasurable should be involved here. Emotion? Feeling? Who puts any of that in their pictures??
Emotion is sooo 2004 and Canon should stop with that! Maybe an extra stop of DR would help make everyone's photos stand out and prove so much more to the world, that's right, Canon better work on their sensor tech because all the Nikon boys are stealing the show, Canon users aren't getting any clients!
Alright this is a forum dedicated to the gear, and gear matters, but this thread has gotten funny by complaining about something there's nothing one can do about. Let's all enjoy what's possible
Nothing unmeasurable should be involved here. Emotion? Feeling? Who puts any of that in their pictures??
Emotion is sooo 2004 and Canon should stop with that! Maybe an extra stop of DR would help make everyone's photos stand out and prove so much more to the world, that's right, Canon better work on their sensor tech because all the Nikon boys are stealing the show, Canon users aren't getting any clients!
Alright this is a forum dedicated to the gear, and gear matters, but this thread has gotten funny by complaining about something there's nothing one can do about. Let's all enjoy what's possible
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RLPhoto said:
If you're referring to the sunset you punched up that's a lovely shot.
I'd like to see a full rez crop of it from the most lifted part tho, just to see if you DO have a magically wonderful 7D the rest of us wish we had.
I love everything about my Canon 7d/60d/5d2.. except the noise stripes.
funny how my 40D/450d/400d/350d provided raw files with noticeably less severe FPN issues. Even my 1000D.
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It is funny to see how simple "technical" post just showing some limitations of the hardware was causing so many childish emotions. This post was for those who are interested to see this kind of information to be able to use it to do better what they what to do. Not everybody has 1Dx and able to check camera sensor limitations themselves (they still awaiting on DXO results) and some people in process of making decision what they want for their needs. Glad that at least one person with the mind not blured by emotions (Aglet) found that this is exact information he wanted to know .
I do not understand why some are so emotional about just one aspect of harware performance - this hardware is just piece of metal and silicon - nothing emotional inside.
Also it seems that some people confused between technical aspects and art aspects of using photographic tools. Some do not see beyond borders of their own small world - illustrated by arguments like " why on the earth you need to raise shadows - in my world I do not do that so you MUST NOT do that because I do not do". But there is not a one small confined world - there are many of them.
On technical side goal of any development in this area is to make the photographic tool to approach human eye in it's capabilities to catch the picture.
Why ?
Extreemly simple answer - to avoid as much of technical work (that consume some time) to bring captured image to what could be seen by human eye - in other words to normalize it as close as possible to humam vision. I know a lot of people here hate word NORMALIZATION simply because they do not understand that well (may be because they forgot what they learned in school on math how to compare fractional numbers)))).
Then from this point (completing technical aspects of normalizing image to human vision) art work is started - transforming real picture to imagenary vision of the artist.
On the technical side we are still far away from the target and we all wish we could reach it rather earlier than later to be able to enjoy the fruits of technical progess and use it for art work.
As far as 1DX concerned 90% of all the tool aspects (here we are talking about set of features and not only sensor) is a big leap forward but 10% is something that could be worked further on and not up to the current technology level.
Here is another example of 1Dx shot in normal daylight conditions using 70-200 2.8L IS USM II.
This 100% crop to get close-up of the subject. Not too bad I belive for the camera and lens combination)))
I do not understand why some are so emotional about just one aspect of harware performance - this hardware is just piece of metal and silicon - nothing emotional inside.
Also it seems that some people confused between technical aspects and art aspects of using photographic tools. Some do not see beyond borders of their own small world - illustrated by arguments like " why on the earth you need to raise shadows - in my world I do not do that so you MUST NOT do that because I do not do". But there is not a one small confined world - there are many of them.
On technical side goal of any development in this area is to make the photographic tool to approach human eye in it's capabilities to catch the picture.
Why ?
Extreemly simple answer - to avoid as much of technical work (that consume some time) to bring captured image to what could be seen by human eye - in other words to normalize it as close as possible to humam vision. I know a lot of people here hate word NORMALIZATION simply because they do not understand that well (may be because they forgot what they learned in school on math how to compare fractional numbers)))).
Then from this point (completing technical aspects of normalizing image to human vision) art work is started - transforming real picture to imagenary vision of the artist.
On the technical side we are still far away from the target and we all wish we could reach it rather earlier than later to be able to enjoy the fruits of technical progess and use it for art work.
As far as 1DX concerned 90% of all the tool aspects (here we are talking about set of features and not only sensor) is a big leap forward but 10% is something that could be worked further on and not up to the current technology level.
Here is another example of 1Dx shot in normal daylight conditions using 70-200 2.8L IS USM II.
This 100% crop to get close-up of the subject. Not too bad I belive for the camera and lens combination)))
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Neutral said:
Neutral, from me, and perhaps I'm also speaking on behalf of a few other open-minded people here on CR, WELCOME to CR forums.
Many of us here do appreciate basic technical information about the tools we use and their limitations.
But as you have quickly observed, there are also many others who seem to have an emotional response to this information and the way it is presented because it may differ from procedures they use or would never consider using, for whatever reason.
I only wish I would have known, a few years ago, this very kind of detailed information on the camera bodies I was considering. I may not have chosen the 5D2 if I'd have known how much FP noise it had, or the 7D for the same reason. At the time all I could find was plenty of over-the-top positive reviews about how fabulous these new cameras were.
Back then my best camera was my 40D and when I saw the output from my new 5D2 I immediately wondered what all the fanboy fuss was about, the raw files were noisier than my 40D! I was under the impression that the new 5D2 was so vastly superior so to see the per-pixel performance was no improvement was very disappointing.
I did buy the 7D because of its AF system but was again very disappointed to see its very banded low ISO FPN problem was far worse than any camera I'd used previously or since.
I have a much more cautious and facts-oriented approach since then.
When I gathered up a bunch of black-frame raw samples from various cameras, compiled and posted them on my web site, I did so because no information like this was readily available anywhere else.
I don't know if you were reading CR forums here back when I did that but it unleashed quite a bit of discussion, much of it just like we've seen in this very thread.
I don't understand some peoples' strong aversion to facts, or how those facts are presented. It's just information; valuable to some but if it's not of use to someone else, I don't understand the latter groups motivation to denigrate the information or the person providing it. I guess some people feel the need to express their opinion on matters which they claim do not matter to them and some will even show some immaturity while doing so.
I hope you will continue to participate in CR and not let some of those negative behaviors that occasionally display themselves discourage you from being a part of this group. Overall it's a pretty good bunch.
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Neutral said:
Looks like the AF nailed it.
I'm curious tho, what software created the 100% crop jpg?
There appears to be a slight bit of a black halo/edge along the left side of duck's (duck's R side) white feathers where it borders with the water background. Looks a bit like a strong unsharp mask was applied.
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40d less noise than 5d2? Yeah, okay...
If people like myself that think the 1d X is the best I have ever tried didn't balance the noise (again, nerdypun) people make, people that don't know this would think the 1d X was just a very expensive paperweight and buy a 40d thinking it was the best ever.
I am all for facts and people can care or not. But to say the rubbish useless DR of 1d x is end all is just completely wrong in my experience, and even if the fact is there. I never experience it in real life, that also is a fact.
If people like myself that think the 1d X is the best I have ever tried didn't balance the noise (again, nerdypun) people make, people that don't know this would think the 1d X was just a very expensive paperweight and buy a 40d thinking it was the best ever.
I am all for facts and people can care or not. But to say the rubbish useless DR of 1d x is end all is just completely wrong in my experience, and even if the fact is there. I never experience it in real life, that also is a fact.
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Viggo said:
Really not sure what you're trying to say there..
But what the OP just showed us is that the 1Dx, even if it's canon's best body to date, still has FPN at base ISO.
If your real life experience with it doesn't run into problems then you fit that category of Canon shooter for whom this information is not relevant. So if this information is not relevant to you, what are you adding to this topic?
And yes, my 40D has less obvious FPN than my 5D2 at lower ISO values. Doesn't yours?
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Viggo is just sharing his experience. Which is great in photography world and this specific topic particularly, as many years after, we might get new perspective on things.Aglet said:
You might know something about measurable DR or tonal range, and in the same time don't take into account difference between 1D and other Canon cameras' RAW colors. I don't know much by myself, but if there were no messages like Viggo has made, I would know nothing
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Aglet said:
It was "quick and dirty" Win 7 snipping tool to get snapshot of the portion of the screen and then save it to the JPEG to attach to the post . Output of this tool is highly compressed and so quality is affected.
Intention was not to show fine details on pixel level but rather to show that in normal light conditions (and for 1Dx it is normal contrast low light as well) 1Dx is performing very well - regarding shadows (initial post topic) and highlights as well.
So now is the same 100% crop normally exported from LR with 100% quality with no sharpening for the screen.
And this was casual shot from far distance (while I was waiting for some indoor event) - as soon as I took camera off the bag and started approching more closely then few minutes later I was stopped by security telling that to use professional camera and lens without park authorities permission is not allowed (((.
As for 1Dx autofocus - it is exellent - almost 100% images are perfect in this respect.
Even for 85 1.2L USM II i have almost 100% of the perfectly autofocused shots at F=1.2.
The only one thing that I found dissapointing is that in AI Servo mode i could start object tracking only from central AF point.
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx autofocus OK initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations when object is moving accross the frame and I want to catch it at one side of the frame and track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.
So nothing is perfect - even 1Dx is still far away from my vision of perfect camera - but this is separate subject.
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Aglet said:
I have the almost same experience with my 5DM2.
I was so excited about the camera - tons of positive reviews with many exclamation marks - so I bought it to replace my EOS 40D as second camera to my 1Ds M3 ( which I actually selling now after I got 1Dx).
One of my favorites is evening/night shooting attempting to capture that special feeling that they carry on but dissapointemet came after first session - and after few more attempts I end up using it as point and shoot camera in normal conditions - whenever going out with my wife or friends. And for the rest 1Ds M3 was still mostly used camera as 5D M2 could not even come close to what 1Ds M3 was capable of regarding autofocus quality, ability to AF at F=8 etc. Also 1Ds M3 images at low ISO were looking better as well.
And for the night shots with high shadow recovery 40D images were still looking better than 5DM2 dispite the fact that 40D resolusion is twice less than 5DM2 and older sensor
So finally I sold 5DM2 after few years of almost not using it and now waiting for new Big Mpxl High DR Canon camera announcement - hope they will do something up to date regarding sensor and with 16bit ADC together with extreme low noise circuitry design will reach 15.9 stops DR ))))
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