5D III Dynamic Range

[Aglet]

To me, the primary benefit of the technology is that if you have a bad exposure for whatever reason, you can lift the shadows a bit and fix it. You clearly have more leeway in this regard with the later Nikon gear than the Canon stuff and that is mainly due to the pattern noise, not the random noise based DR difference (that DxO measures). This is a huge benefit for the Nikon gear; however, in fairness to Canon, I have never really had a problem with their equipment for any real world work I have done.

OK, you DO get it.

 

[ishdakuteb]

he will not being able to simply because all of this images are crappy, from color to composition through number of years being photographer unless he goes out there and steal one. you can tell by taking a look at his images via provided link in previous post.

sigh... i thought that i am saying i am getting tired of talking to these type of people, who have been talking about the same topic for a year (over a year when including other forums like dpreview, photographyblog, etc...), nothing else...

proof: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50383414

umm.... "IARNA International anti-banding and read out noise Association" never heard of it... might be there are two member one is president and another one is vice president LOL...

 

[Radiating]

Folks,
Greetings,
As we all know the dynamic range of 5D MK III is not better than its counterpart Nikon D800. I was wondering if this deficiency could be addressed by using single shot HDR for batch processing. Has anyone tried HDR batch process to improve dynamic range, what would be good software for this purpose or any other comments. Thanks in advance.
Raj

Dynamic range is the result of the highlight saturation ceiling and the noise floor. You can't use software to improve it because you can't create data that doesn't exist in the first place.

Canon cameras have a significant noise floor in the shadows, due to the way the sensor data is read that adds noise to it. Sony/Nikon's method of reading the sensor is inherently less noisy so they have more dynamic range.

Canon improved the 5D3 dynamic range by about a stop from the previous generation, and you don't really need more DR unless you're doing architecture or landscape, in which case you can use multi shot.

 

[RMC33]

Jee another thread that was going good.. with a great video offering up some wonderful techniques... that has now sunk to the bickering of other threads.

 

[Aglet]

PBD: I called Mikael an irrelevance, which by my understanding of the word is not an insult, because his comments in these threads are so often irrelevant.

IMO, you are directly disrespecting the man with that statement.
You seem to have an adequate grasp of english to be able to understand that you did not refer to his IDEAS with that comment, which you've repeated more than once.

If you were to do so, you'd have said, "Hey, your opinion or comment is irrelevant."
FWIW, irrelevance is not even a real word, but you're putting it into a context that comes across as disrespectful.
I also find your badgering of people for their raw files a put-off as well.
What do you hope to accomplish from someone else's raw files?
If you want samples of D800 or 5d2 files, you can find them, shot under very controlled conditions, on various sites. Imaging-resourse is a good example.
Download them and play with them. See how they compare for yourself.
I see little need to duplicate their efforts to appease such requests.

PBD: Like his eye comment..
you did not need to respond to that, he didn't contradict what you said, he merely added to it

PBD: Can you show us some images where the DR of the Canon just can't work but the slightly higher DR of the Nikon saved the day and made a worthwhile image? It appears not.

yes.
I can show you where, if I had shot Nikon, it would have provided an image that _I_ would have liked much better. My client didn't care. I'm a much fussier customer than my clients.

PBD: However, what we are constantly asking for is examples of where the Canon equipment lets you down in real world shooting,

Right, and when I actually started a thread on this exact topic a couple days ago I got 2 pages of crap from various fan-boys on this site who weren't patient enough for some examples to be posted by me or anyone else. Very few others even braved the flames to actually try to participate. I feel bad for them because they were interested in the topic but were likely turned off by the resulting brawl. I certainly was.
Why should I, and some others, waste our time trying to share our experience and knowledge when the response is ridicule or disrespect? Many of the people on this forum have something worthwhile to contribute, even if they're newbies. However, I've often seen too many responses in a condescending attitude from certain participants; that does not create a healthy atmosphere for participation.
And it must the crankiness that comes with old age but I'm gonna call it when i see it.

PBD: where maximising the lower capabilities of the Canon are not enough, where worthwhile real world images could only be shot with a Nikon. In truth I have never been shown one, not one single real world image, only lots of artificially set up and badly exposed "tests".

What I've generally stated is that the superior sensor performance of the other mfr's cameras allow a lot more creative freedom in post and simplified shooting in the field because we don't have to try wring the best from a mediocre product.
I and others have also stated that it's certainly a benefit to be able to recover from an underexposed shot, or to be able to compress the contrast in a shot with lots of dynamic range, so that the shadows aren't wrecked by pattern noise. There are enough real-world situations where this is an issue.
I've made prints from my 5d2 and 7d that people think are great! Sure. I wonder what they'd have thought about the same images if I could have lifted the dark levels a little like I wanted to, so a hint of the detail hiding there could be seen - preferably without the stripes.

I don't know who said it but taking your dark print outside to view in sunlight to see the shadow details is not often an appropriate option!
This is when shadow range compression (lifting) is beneficial and when patterned noise cameras, like most contemporary Canons, are not up to the task in the more extreme cases.

Artificially contrived tests are what you use when you do research. It's called a controlled environment to minimize variables. It's daft to suggest such tests do not have merit, people need to understand how they work and how the results will apply to real world shooting. If someone can't understand that, it's gonna be pretty hard to teach them much of anything.

PBD: I shoot a lot of very high dynamic range images, a Nikon would not serve me better.
That's true, but it is irrelevant!
HDR can even be done with an 8-bit compact camera.

 

[Aglet]

you can take a look at his images right here http://a2bart.com/... thinking of one day i am going to take some of his images and send to "scott kelby blind critique" and then post back result of the video in this forum to see how good his skill is ;D i guess that we probably have great laugh in this forum since scott is pretty straight...

note: my 7 years old daughter can create much much nicer a website layout than the one listed above (unbelievable entire website is still used html in these days, no wonder why his image and the other irrelevant-er have no improvement...)

YAWN! : I've seen what you've posted on this site, ishdakuteb, you've got a long road ahead of you before you can think about stepping into my shoes.
And frankly, I don't care what you think artistically - you probably like the Ken Rockwell style of over-saturated, over-contrasty clichés.
And if your kid's so much better at building a site, good for her, there's some talent somewhere in your family.
Meanwhile, keep shooting. You'll benefit from the practice.

 

[Aglet]

Aglet,

So show us a reasonable selection of images that are not contrived test scenarios where skillful use of the capabilities of the available tools fails. We are not talking unnecessarily underexposing images by 7 stops, as in the video.

Please show us a good selection of real world images where the lower DR of the Canon's have let you down and where the Nikon has ended up producing a really notable image.

It seems the primary benefit you espouse is for covering incompetence! I assumed, you being an "ART" photographer, would have a basic understanding of exposure and your cameras capabilities.

Awe Dude! You see, this is the kind of stuff I mean!

You want me to go shoot a whole bunch of real world tests shots with multiple cameras to appease your request?!? Are you friggin' kidding?!? :

And then you insult me?.. no minced words about it.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

I'm not going to play with you.
Go shoot your own test shots. Gheez, are you an only child or something? How'd you get to be so spoiled and demanding?

"FWIW, irrelevance is not even a real word"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrelevance

I DON'T CARE!
i know what it meant from the context, still doesn't matter. You used it to insult Mikael. His dictionary probably doesn't have it as a real word either.

 

[ishdakuteb]

PBD: I called Mikael an irrelevance, which by my understanding of the word is not an insult, because his comments in these threads are so often irrelevant.

IMO, you are directly disrespecting the man with that statement.
You seem to have an adequate grasp of english to be able to understand that you did not refer to his IDEAS with that comment, which you've repeated more than once.

If you were to do so, you'd have said, "Hey, your opinion or comment is irrelevant."
FWIW, irrelevance is not even a real word, but you're putting it into a context that comes across as disrespectful.
I also find your badgering of people for their raw files a put-off as well.
What do you hope to accomplish from someone else's raw files?
If you want samples of D800 or 5d2 files, you can find them, shot under very controlled conditions, on various sites. Imaging-resourse is a good example.
Download them and play with them. See how they compare for yourself.
I see little need to duplicate their efforts to appease such requests.

PSD calls only one irrelevant but i think should be both of you

PBD: Can you show us some images where the DR of the Canon just can't work but the slightly higher DR of the Nikon saved the day and made a worthwhile image? It appears not.

yes.
I can show you where, if I had shot Nikon, it would have provided an image that _I_ would have liked much better. My client didn't care. I'm a much fussier customer than my clients.

your clients are blind. compare the two below. the first one, which is yours, is what i am calling snapshot. if it is mine, i send it to trash can right away

and this one, the second one we are calling art

and another two, ditto, first one is a snapshot. not necessary an image composed with diagonal line is art

and second one is art

PBD: However, what we are constantly asking for is examples of where the Canon equipment lets you down in real world shooting,

Right, and when I actually started a thread on this exact topic a couple days ago I got 2 pages of crap from various fan-boys on this site who weren't patient enough for some examples to be posted by me or anyone else. Very few others even braved the flames to actually try to participate. I feel bad for them because they were interested in the topic but were likely turned off by the resulting brawl. I certainly was.
Why should I, and some others, waste our time trying to share our experience and knowledge when the response is ridicule or disrespect? Many of the people on this forum have something worthwhile to contribute, even if they're newbies. However, I've often seen too many responses in a condescending attitude from certain participants; that does not create a healthy atmosphere for participation.
And it must the crankiness that comes with old age but I'm gonna call it when i see it.

well... we are newbies who are snapping images much much better than you though. yep, i am darn sure that my experience on photoshop and snapping an image is much much better than you by taking a look at your images

PBD: where maximising the lower capabilities of the Canon are not enough, where worthwhile real world images could only be shot with a Nikon. In truth I have never been shown one, not one single real world image, only lots of artificially set up and badly exposed "tests".

What I've generally stated is that the superior sensor performance of the other mfr's cameras allow a lot more creative freedom in post and simplified shooting in the field because we don't have to try wring the best from a mediocre product.
I and others have also stated that it's certainly a benefit to be able to recover from an underexposed shot, or to be able to compress the contrast in a shot with lots of dynamic range, so that the shadows aren't wrecked by pattern noise. There are enough real-world situations where this is an issue.
I've made prints from my 5d2 and 7d that people think are great! Sure. I wonder what they'd have thought about the same images if I could have lifted the dark levels a little like I wanted to, so a hint of the detail hiding there could be seen - preferably without the stripes.

I don't know who said it but taking your dark print outside to view in sunlight to see the shadow details is not often an appropriate option!
This is when shadow range compression (lifting) is beneficial and when patterned noise cameras, like most contemporary Canons, are not up to the task in the more extreme cases.

Artificially contrived tests are what you use when you do research. It's called a controlled environment to minimize variables. It's daft to suggest such tests do not have merit, people need to understand how they work and how the results will apply to real world shooting. If someone can't understand that, it's gonna be pretty hard to teach them much of anything.

oh my god, i wonder who would like to learn from you? i do not...

PBD: I shoot a lot of very high dynamic range images, a Nikon would not serve me better.
That's true, but it is irrelevant!
HDR can even be done with an 8-bit compact camera.

if nikon is that good dynamic range, i wonder why number of nikon users are using hdr.

BORROW JAY MAISEL QUOTE TO EDUCATE YOU: "TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT".

 

[ishdakuteb]

Folks,
Greetings,
As we all know the dynamic range of 5D MK III is not better than its counterpart Nikon D800. I was wondering if this deficiency could be addressed by using single shot HDR for batch processing. Has anyone tried HDR batch process to improve dynamic range, what would be good software for this purpose or any other comments. Thanks in advance.
Raj

Dynamic range is the result of the highlight saturation ceiling and the noise floor. You can't use software to improve it because you can't create data that doesn't exist in the first place.

Canon cameras have a significant noise floor in the shadows, due to the way the sensor data is read that adds noise to it. Sony/Nikon's method of reading the sensor is inherently less noisy so they have more dynamic range.

Canon improved the 5D3 dynamic range by about a stop from the previous generation, and you don't really need more DR unless you're doing architecture or landscape, in which case you can use multi shot.

not true, if you know to handle the DR= show the reproduction from high lights to the lowest levels in a motive, 14 stops DR are more than 11 with banding and pattern noise including in the 11 stop of DR

show me your best of best image that you have ever taken so that i am going to open my eyes mr. self promoted president/artist... once again, we all know what is all that about, you do not have to keep talking about the same for year(s) and we all know how to work around with it. well, i guess no matter what you will keep saying the same since i guess that nikon probably hire you to be here and flood with same information, so PATHETIC...

 

[ishdakuteb]

you are like another person here at CR, you do not know the the laws of physics,

AH HAH... I LIKE THAT "THE LAW OF PHYSICS"... WHICH ONE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... I AM OPENING FOR PUBLIC TELECON... WANT TO SETUP AN WEBEX TO TALK ABOUT PHYSICS? I THINK NEURO IS SITTING OUT THERE AND WONDER HOW GOOD YOU ARE IN PHYSICS TOO

note: once again, i am want to see your BEST OF BEST IMAGE

 

[ishdakuteb]

why are writing with big letters, you can not ran around the law of physics regarding signal/noise and banding

i thought you do not see it; therefore, i am writing BIG.

"... you can not ran around the law of physics regarding signal/noise and banding..." under one shot, i can't... with HDR/bracketing i certainly can. i believe that i can take good images with any brand of dslr regardless of using canon or nikon


// --- POST YOUR BEST OF BEST IMAGE PLEASE ---

 

[Aglet]

..your clients are blind. compare the two below. the first one, which is yours, is what i am calling snapshot. if it is mine, i send it to trash can right away

DID YOU OBTAIN MY PERMISSION TO POST MY IMAGES ONLINE?

I don't see a request anywhere. I recommend that that you edit your post to remove them immediately.

BORROW JAY MAISEL QUOTE TO EDUCATE YOU: "TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT".

OK, there's your technicolored hero. As before, oversaturated cliché.
and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
As is generally the case around here. :

If you want to have an artistic merit discussion there's a different area for that.

 

[ishdakuteb]

..your clients are blind. compare the two below. the first one, which is yours, is what i am calling snapshot. if it is mine, i send it to trash can right away

DID YOU OBTAIN MY PERMISSION TO POST MY IMAGES ONLINE?

I don't see a request anywhere. I recommend that that you edit your post to remove them immediately.

BORROW JAY MAISEL QUOTE TO EDUCATE YOU: "TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT".

OK, there's your technicolored hero. As before, oversaturated cliché.
and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
As is generally the case around here. :

If you want to have an artistic merit discussion there's a different area for that.

go ahead and make a claim small case at court, i am open to it... i know how to deal with this type of cases though. know how to claim a small case? if not, i am showing you how...

remove it? no, i am not going to. if you wish to, ask admin to delete that post. that the only way... so pathetic that you can not even recognize what is the different between link and download and re-post.

 

[RLPhoto]

I need more popcorn.

 

[ishdakuteb]

hmmmm what are you saing?
I repeat:This people with minor knowledge who are shouting with big letters , they must first understand the physics of law and signal / noise. If they think they now are the wonder of the lives regarding photography , they must understand that with a camera with a large DR they have the conditions to take even better pictures. Good luck

i am certainly a person with minor knowledge, but better than yours. i am going to post any of my image upon your request, but not chicken like you, not posting YOUR BEST OF BEST IMAGE as requested...

note: keep in mind that not going out there to steal aiite...

 

[ishdakuteb]

I need more popcorn.

keep an eye on this topic... i am running out to supper market to get you and i a big big one so we can open our big big eyes to see his image... i am not sure that he is going to post... been asking this for a while already...

 

[DanielW]

Geez, you folks still arguing? And with the same lines over and over?
Maybe it's time the admins add some kind of human confirmation before each post, for I suspect some here are answering machines or the like.

 

[DanielW]

I need more popcorn.

;D

Hopefully we can keep this as one isolated thread for the naughty children, though with Aglet's propensity to call in the Admins I doubt it.

Can I have some of the popcorn?

;D

Both are good ideas...!

 

[ishdakuteb]

I need more popcorn.

;D

Hopefully we can keep this as one isolated thread for the naughty children, though with Aglet's propensity to call in the Admins I doubt it.

Can I have some of the popcorn?

;D

i will get an extra for you... i think he would probably call. but if he want information to bring me to court, i am willing to assist him how to request it 8)

 

[Txema]

[/quote]

It seems the primary benefit you espouse is for covering incompetence! I assumed, you being an "ART" photographer, would have a basic understanding of exposure and your cameras capabilities.
[/quote]

Missing an exposure is not incompetence it is just an error that everybody in this forum , except you, has committed.