5D Mark III (or other) Followup

[mathino]

There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Craig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slightly newer sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX is the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed demon!

Anyone with thoughts on this one?

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. The only thing Canon has to "fix" on the 5DII is the autofocus. They could probably even get away with recycling the current sensor (not saying they will, just that they could). I also agree that they will add some video improvements (I think Canon was shocked by how popular the 5DII became for low-budget video and they want to keep that market satisfied. It may amount to a small percentage of their buyers now, but the growth pattern is far healthier than the DSLR still market.)

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?

For me as a person who wants to upgrade to FF - definitely yes. I had 7D borrowed from my friend, AF was perfect (the best for me was this cluster type of 1 + 4 AF points) but ISO performance (as expected) was not something for low light work (I've found out that highest usable ISO was 3200 - for me). And on one Canon event I've had 5D Mk II, ISO performance was great but usable was only center AF point.

So a conclusion, for me, new 5D with just better AF will be ideal. I think as for many upgraders from xxxxD/xxxD/xxD lines.

As for someone looking for new camera (5D or 7D owners) this could be really a question. They can buy 7D or 5D Mk II as second body and have both features - IQ and AF. Even batteries for these cameras ar the same. For them, there must be something significant to upgrade to 5D Mk II-like-with-better-AF body.

 

[JR]

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?

This is a very good question. Speaking for myself if this camera was the only option I had other then going to the dark side (aka Nikon ) I might. However for my specific use I am also looking for some significant ISO improvement. This is why I beleive for me the viable option will be a 1DX.

 

[Loswr]

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?

If the price was the same as the 'usual' 5DII price (before the recent drops, i.e. ~US$2500) and the AF was substantially improved, I would strongly consider it instead of the 1D X, especially with the second joystick on the battery grip. 12 fps would be nice, of course, but I don't have a real issue with the current 3.9 fps.

For me, it will depend on the nuances. I'm fortunate that budget isn't an overriding consideration - yes, I'd like to spend only $3K on camera+grip and leave $6K for lenses (differential from 1D X plus proceeds from sale of 5DII). But it would depend on how much of an upgrade the AF got, and probably also how improved the 1D X's ISO performance really is - Canon has claimed 2 stops for JPGs over the 1DIV, but then they've also claimed, "A new photodiode structure with an increased photoelectric conversion rate increases the sensor's sensitivity by approximately 2 stops over previous models, meaning higher ISOs with the lowest noise of any EOS digital camera." So, which is it? If it's two real stops of improvements due to sensor enhancements and thus reflected in the RAW files...an ISO 12800 that delivers similar noise as ISO 3200 on the 5DII would incline me to the 1D X.

 

[leonedolci]

I am thinking another way around.

Could it be a sort of "7D" (means strong AF and hi-speed) with APS-H sensor?

- 7D is deemed as a lesser competitor vs. D300s due to AF and hi-ISO performance, hence the limited pricing space
- the old 1D series is gone for good and Canon has all the matured APS-H design and manufacture capability.
- if Nikon release a D800 with super high MP as rumored then Nikon has to fill the ~$2500 price tier with an APS body. A good 16MP APS-C sensor with 3500DX AF module is hard to beat for any 7D with small evolution.

Imagine 7D2 with modified 1D4 sensor:
- Better IQ vs. any APS-C sensor + comparable fast AF vs. new Dxxx = higher pricing power vs. Nikon APS flagship.
- support real Super35 format for budget video makers.
- low tech risk and comparatively low capital investment for an impressing new model in this line.

This is 2012, olympic year. I do think a semi-pro sports cam is a more attractive idea than upgrading hi-MP stills camera.

Just my 2cents.

- Leone

 

[tt]

Would we have learnt anything if we'd seen the camera side on, showing the left hand side connections available?

 

[D_Rochat]

I am thinking another way around.

Could it be a sort of "7D" (means strong AF and hi-speed) with APS-H sensor?

- 7D is deemed as a lesser competitor vs. D300s due to AF and hi-ISO performance, hence the limited pricing space
- the old 1D series is gone for good and Canon has all the matured APS-H design and manufacture capability.
- if Nikon release a D800 with super high MP as rumored then Nikon has to fill the ~$2500 price tier with an APS body. A good 16MP APS-C sensor with 3500DX AF module is hard to beat for any 7D with small evolution.

Imagine 7D2 with modified 1D4 sensor:
- Better IQ vs. any APS-C sensor + comparable fast AF vs. new Dxxx = higher pricing power vs. Nikon APS flagship.
- support real Super35 format for budget video makers.
- low tech risk and comparatively low capital investment for an impressing new model in this line.

This is 2012, olympic year. I do think a semi-pro sports cam is a more attractive idea than upgrading hi-MP stills camera.

Just my 2cents.

- Leone

There you go being all logical.... You're going to anger all the crazy 7D APC-S fanatics by talking like that.

Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us

I like the tape. Clearly it's intended to hide the Canon logo. Because attaching the camera to a big white lens give absolutely no clue as to its brand.

I thought it was a Sony

 

[fred_jb]

Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Aspect ratio speculation

I'd like to pick up on something mentioned in the original post - namely the apparent change in aspect ratio of the rear display. I've downloaded the RAW and this is clearly not due to distortion as the wheel and buttons all look perfectly circular. While looking at this and comparing to my own 5D II I also thought that the viewfinder was somewhat elongated.

Could this mean that the sensor actually has something other than a 3:2 aspect ratio, and is therefore even more biased towards video?

Fred

 

[fotoray]

Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.

The aspect ratio (looks to be 16x9) of the LCD strongly suggests video is a key priority of the new camera.

I'd like to see a new 5D3 with the following:

FF 21 mp
same batteries as 5D2 and 7D
AF performance at least as good as the 7D
improved IQ in low light
double-exposure mode like new 1D X
option for 3, 5, or 7 shots in auto-bracketing mode

 

[mathino]

Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.

The aspect ratio (looks to be 16x9) of the LCD strongly suggests video is a key priority of the new camera.

I'd like to see a new 5D3 with the following:

FF 21 mp
same batteries as 5D2 and 7D
AF performance at least as good as the 7D
improved IQ in low light
double-exposure mode like new 1D X
option for 3, 5, or 7 shots in auto-bracketing mode

Exactly as me

 

[Mooose]

Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us

I like the tape. Clearly it's intended to hide the Canon logo. Because attaching the camera to a big white lens give absolutely no clue as to its brand.

I thought it was a Sony
[/quote]

It's clearly a Ricoh clone of a Canon camera.

 

[Neeneko]

once again, the "having video makes this camera worse for stills" argument
I completely disagree

I do not think including video itself makes it 'worse', but pointing out that video is not just a 'free' feature. It eats development time, it eats limited resources on the camera, it eats testing time, it effects design decisions the impact the still photo side. To a limited degree, this is a zero sum case and, if the body did not include video, the same amount of resources being put into it likely would have produced a better still camera.

Naturally it could be argued that the increase in sales/demand for a dual purpose camera out weighs this and TBH I have no idea if it does or not.

and I didn't hear any stills shooters complaining in the times of film, when you could buy better and vastly cheaper film stocks thanks to the huge demand for film by the movie industry
just as "kodak should forget about stills and develop better film stocks for its main customer, the movie industry" was a dumb argument back then, "canon should forget about video and develop better stills cameras" is silly now

Not really the same thing. I do not think anyone is suggesting Canon should not product video cameras, or even dual function cameras, just that Canon should also produce cameras where the only function is still and thus all design decisions and hardware/firmware tradeoffs focus on still photography rather then 'it has to work well for both'.

When you buy a dual use camera, you are paying for not only the increased manufacturing cost of including video capabilities and the R&D/Testing involved in a more complex device, but, as said, if this theory is true, you are paying for design decisions intended to benefit a whole class of use-cases that you (assuming one only wants stills) do not care about, and thus design decisions that focus on the other use cases probably would have designed it differently.

For reference, I spent years working in embedded systems (not cameras) and this was always a major point of contention, esp when marketing pushed for features that a certain percentage of customers wanted to be put into all models, even when those customers were already served by specialized models that met their use cases specifically. It was very frustrating from an engineering perspective.

 

[Loswr]

Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.

Based on what? An n=2 for the 5-series and an n=1 for the 7-series? One point isn't even enough for a trendline...

There you go being all logical.... You're going to anger all the crazy 7D APC-S fanatics by talking like that.

There won't be a 7-series with APS-H. Too confusing for EF-S compatibility. Does anyone really want to consult a table or other resource to determine which lenses will work with which bodies? Would any manufacturer push out such a confusing system to make things more complex for their customers? I mean, there's absolutely no precedent for that... :

But, nothing preculdes another line for a semi-pro APS-H camera...

 

[V8Beast]

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?

Hell yes, for me at least. I never bothered upgrading from the 5D to the 5DII because despite the increase in resolution, and slight bump in DR and ISO, Canon didn't address my biggest gripe with the 5D: the pathetic AF. If the 5DIII is essentially the same as a 5DII, with with a pro-caliber AF, I will cease all talk about defecting to Nikon and put in a pre-order for one ASAP. Of course, a couple more FPS would be nice, too

I like everything about the 7D except the image quality, and I like everything about the 5DIII except the AF. I really hope there's some truth to these rumors, because it just makes too much sense.

 

[marius]

I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side.
I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\

Focal plane mark
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=d64387-1327427629.jpg

 

[bigblue1ca]

This is all very entertaining with all the hype that has been generated. All I hope is they announce the 5DIII sooner than later. I was about to put a pre-order in on a 1DX when this all broke. If the 5DIII has some improvements in ISO, FPS, and picks up the AF of the 7D as people are speculating, I would be highly inclined to buy it over the 1DX and take my savings and put it towards glass. I need a good AF system, okay FPS, and decent low light ISO capabilities. A one stop ISO improvement in the 5DIII over the 5DII, the 7Ds AF system, and somewhere in the 5-7 FPS range would be right up my alley.

I think in one of the other threads on the 5DIII (I think there are three on the go now) I saw Neuro hypothesizing about if Canon would leave the 1DX as the top of the line flagship model, but let the 5DIII come in just slightly below in terms of features. It's certainly an interesting question.

Canon likely has a pretty good idea that they'll automatically sell X units of the 1DX to pros sports/photo journalists, etc, based on previous flag ship sales. The question is if they blend the 5DII and 7D, and add a few improvements and create the 5DIII and sell it for $3000 less than the 1DX, will the extra units they would undoubtedly sell of improved 5DIII make up for the lost sales from those (like me) who would have otherwise bought the 1DX?

 

[D_Rochat]

I see what you're saying neuro, but I don't think it's too far out there to think that Canon may be restructuring their Pro line and pushing the APC-S and EF-S down to a more Prosumer XXD line. I might think differently if they start to produce red ring EF-S lenses.

 

[mkln]

I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side.
I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\

Focal plane mark
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=d64387-1327427629.jpg

The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip

I wonder tho where you insert the batteries.
Could it be a wifi grip?

 

[marius]

I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side.
I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\

Focal plane mark
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=d64387-1327427629.jpg

The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip

I wonder tho where you insert the batteries.
Could it be a wifi grip?

I think is integrated:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=411be0-1327429194.jpg

... but something like this (on the left side):
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS1DMarkIV/Images/battery.jpg

 

[awinphoto]

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?

Hmmm define "major" Depends... the 5d2 is a great camera but the AF in it currently makes it fell psychologically like a dinosaur. Like what digirev said in the comparison of the 7d vs 5d2, after using the 7d, the 5d2 AF is "depressing". There are other nuances with the 7D which, like going into a sharper image store, you didn't know you needed... Like for me, levels is a must and I think there's no wall in heck they wouldn't add it in, at least in the LCD if not the viewfinder. I do a lot of product, a lot of architecture, panoramas, and levels is so much better and easier than having a bubble level on the hot shoe. Weathersealing... I've taken my 7d out in snow storms, rain, etc and haven't worried about what if... (with a sealed lens). I'm sure the 5d2 could handle moisture but, like with the xxd cameras when I used them, you always have that nagging doubt which inevitably cuts your shoot in half before you probably could last. Lastly, flash commander... With no pop-up, I have no idea how they wish to incorporate this, but it really would be an awesome feature if they add it in. Also keep that MFN button and dial lock and we got ourselves a perfect camera for me. Otherwise I'll have to weigh if it's worth the upgrade or not.

 

[awinphoto]

I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side.
I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\

Focal plane mark
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=d64387-1327427629.jpg

The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip

I wonder tho where you insert the batteries.
Could it be a wifi grip?

I think is integrated:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=411be0-1327429194.jpg

... but something like this (on the left side):
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS1DMarkIV/Images/battery.jpg

The first link clearly shows the screw in wheel that connects the grip to the camera.. it is not integrated, however it can be the closest sealed grip made to date tho.