5D3 & 600ex-rt + AF assist beam = slower focus

[Marsu42]

Simply put, the 6D outperforms the 5D3 for low light focusing.

Having neither access to a 5d3 or 6d, but wanting to decide for one sooner or later it's rather difficult because it's very fuzzy what "low light" is (few people posting state their lens, object distance + shutter&aperture) - and how fast either camera focuses with af assist disabled in lower light.

On the one hand, I am amazed how many people have this problem w/o an official Canon confirmation, on the other hand if the issue is really as severe as it appears to be for "5d3-like" situations there should be an even larger outcry - or Canon really changed something on the latest hardware?

Summing it up, I understand this is an important issue for lower-light shooting like events and receptions where even the up to -2lv 5d3 needs the af beam, and there is no solution in sight except probably using non-Canon flashes, correct?

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Simply put, the 6D outperforms the 5D3 for low light focusing.

Having neither access to a 5d3 or 6d, but wanting to decide for one sooner or later it's rather difficult because it's very fuzzy what "low light" is (few people posting state their lens, object distance + shutter&aperture) - and how fast either camera focuses with af assist disabled in lower light.

On the one hand, I am amazed how many people have this problem w/o an official Canon confirmation, on the other hand if the issue is really as severe as it appears to be for "5d3-like" situations there should be an even larger outcry - or Canon really changed something on the latest hardware?

Summing it up, I understand this is an important issue for lower-light shooting like events and receptions where even the up to -2lv 5d3 needs the af beam, and there is no solution in sight except probably using non-Canon flashes, correct?

It's a frustrating issue for the reasons you state. It's a moving target kind of intermittent problem because it seems like some folks have dealt with it in a big way, others aren't sure (or don't use or care about low light shooting) and still others don't see any problem whatsoever and seem to think the low light AF works better than anything they've ever seen. I had a major problem with it myself, exchanged the camera and I now think it merely works OK, it's not a total show stopper anymore but it doesn't blow me away either.

I would suggest you rent or borrow both the 5D3 and the 6D and see for yourself based on how/what you shoot. For me, I wouldn't have paid much attention to the 6D if the 5D3 had worked as well as I thought it should have in low light. Focus hunting and missing shots doesn't = 'working well' to me. As things stand at this point in time, my use bears out that the 6D works better in low light. YMMV.

As for using non-Canon flashes, setting tweaks, etc I can't give you a good opinion because none of it matters in my use. The functionality was the same in general no matter how I tried to help the problem. I guess the AF Assist from a Yongnou 622C helps a little but I don't use AF Assist so it doesn't matter to me. (I do have the 622C units, they are pretty neat but the beam cluster is a bit off center.) The small SunPak RD2000 flash I have used for years doesn't have AF Assist, won't work with the 622C and I'm not going to start using a big flash just to gain the AF Assist beam that I never needed in the past with my 5Dc. Plus, I don't like distracting people with flashing things in low light. If you read my numerous posts earlier in this thread, I don't want to trade the embarrassment of poor AF delays for the embarrassment of flashing distractions in low light. Just what I want in a church service, flashing patterns on the pastor, alter and front of the sanctuary. (Now that I have a silent shutter!)

Sorry for the length. Feel free to share your thoughts and experience and contact me if you like. Good Luck!

 

[steliosk]

i face the same problem in 600D, while in older cameras such as 450D and 350D the af works ULTRA FAST.

600d + ex 580 II assist beam = slower focus

terrible lag on focus while the assist beam lits.
looks like the assist beam is litting a bit less in 600D rather than 350D

 

[Marsu42]

Sorry for the length. Feel free to share your thoughts and experience and contact me if you like. Good Luck!

Many thanks for summing it up from a user's perspective, that rather concludes it for me - the 5d3 is very expensive for me anyway, I'd rather get another lens (like 17-40L + filter) and some accessories for the price difference to the 6d, and apart from the 5d3 af assist problem the 5d3/1dx isn't tuned for the most of the lenses I use (100L, 17-40L, 70-300L). Still a pity the 6d is so underspeced and I don't need the gimmicks, but then again no one prevents me from buying the 5d4 in 2015 if I ever go pro...

 

[cocopop05]

Sorry for the length. Feel free to share your thoughts and experience and contact me if you like. Good Luck!

Many thanks for summing it up from a user's perspective, that rather concludes it for me - the 5d3 is very expensive for me anyway, I'd rather get another lens (like 17-40L + filter) and some accessories for the price difference to the 6d, and apart from the 5d3 af assist problem the 5d3/1dx isn't tuned for the most of the lenses I use (100L, 17-40L, 70-300L). Still a pity the 6d is so underspeced and I don't need the gimmicks, but then again no one prevents me from buying the 5d4 in 2015 if I ever go pro...

Forgive my ignorance, I am quite new to photography. I would like to understand how the 5D3/1DX are not tuned for those L lenses? And can the camera's settings tune the camera to those lenses?

 

[Marsu42]

Forgive my ignorance, I am quite new to photography. I would like to understand how the 5D3/1DX are not tuned for those L lenses? And can the camera's settings tune the camera to those lenses?

This is rather ot, but fyi: Download the manual, look under "lens groups" - the full potential of the 1dx/5d3 af is with few lenses (like the 70-200/2.8is2, 24-70ii) and the af spread and precision (double cross, cross, ...) degrades in lower lens groups. This is constantly missed by many 5d3 reviews, it's a shame that reviewers don't deem it necessary to flip through the manual. The lens groups are fixed and not settable in firmware, and it'll stay that way because of the lens' hardware - i.e. that's why the 24-70mk1 is in a lower group than the mk2.

Of course the 5d3 has a much more stellar af even with my lenses than the disappointing 6d af system, and the newer lenses like the 70-300L are much more precise in contrast to the 6d (see the lensrentals review on the 6d af) - but with f4 it's not the full potential, and precision matters most with large apertures (or macro, which is a problem for me on the 60d).

Imho the 5d1/1dx is meant for the current f2.8 zooms and expensive primes, while the 6d is "anti-tuned" for it because all outer points have no f2.8-precision and the center point has non-cross precision for f2.8 (it's a horizontal overlay over the f4 cross) - thanks, Canon... see also a neighbor thread mentioned above about 100L vs 200L on 5d3 in lower light.

 

[echelonphoto]

thats all very good....but what good are cross sensors if they take 2 secs to acheive focus in low light situations?

 

[sanj]

thats all very good....but what good are cross sensors if they take 2 secs to acheive focus in low light situations?

+1

 

[echelonphoto]

The most important camera feature for any pro is consistency and reliability.....all the rest is froth! Everyone call
Canon about the fact that we are being embarrassed on the job.

 

[AudioGlenn]

I can't seem to duplicate this issue. My 5d mk3 and 600 ex-rt work just fine in almost total darkness with the AF assist beam firing. It locks focus faster with the beam than without it. i tried focusing on my solid black surround sound speakers in total darkness and everything works just fine. maybe I'm just lucky.

for those of you with issues, i wish you luck in finding a solution.

 

[digital paradise]

Have you used it in a live situation yet? Dark venue like a wedding reception or another event.

 

[AudioGlenn]

no i haven't but i think a pitch black room with no lights on in the middle of the night is pretty much the same thing as far as lighting conditions go.

 

[Marsu42]

no i haven't but i think a pitch black room with no lights on in the middle of the night is pretty much the same thing as far as lighting conditions go.

From what I read the distance of the object lit by the af assist seems to have a significant impact on the focusing ability, next to the lens used... and your "pitch black" setup might sound like a worst case scenario, but not that's necessarily true because in real life the camera has to deal with varying combinations of af and real light.

 

[AudioGlenn]

no i haven't but i think a pitch black room with no lights on in the middle of the night is pretty much the same thing as far as lighting conditions go.

From what I read the distance of the object lit by the af assist seems to have a significant impact on the focusing ability, next to the lens used... and your "pitch black" setup might sound like a worst case scenario, but not that's necessarily true because in real life the camera has to deal with varying combinations of af and real light.

good point. I was focusing on something about 5 ft in front me. I was able to see the AF beam through the camera because it was so dark and the red really stood out.... and yes, when I say pitch black, I mean pitch black. no street lights shining in through a window... nothing. pitch BLACK.

so anyways, i tested again with as much distance as I could in the same room... the longest dimension of the room is about 30 feet so I just pointed at the wall 30 ft away, even though i couldn't see a damn thing, waited for focus, and shot.... AF worked fine, like I was in a well lit room. the wall was far enough away that I sure as hell couldn't see the AF beam on it. Focus was fine.

I have other thoughts on variables that might be tripping people up:

1) what lenses are we having issues with? I used both the 24-70 2.8 II and the 70-200 2.8 IS II... both at 2.8 when I did my "testing". Maybe f/4 lenses are having a harder time seeing the AF beam in low light.

2) Also, would the color/pattern of what you are focusing on in low light contribute to the camera having a hard time. For example, if the subject was RED in color, or even had something with red tones in it, maybe there wasn't enough contrast between the subject and the AF beam from the 600.

3) Maybe the problem is in the speed lights and not the 5D mk3. Low batteries maybe? maybe without fresh batteries, the AF assist beam isn't bright enough. or maybe some of the new 600 ex-rt units (remember those are new too) have issues

I'm just trying to find a way to re-create the issue that people are having. There's obviously enough of a problem (or two) with this combo that a lot of people are noticing a significantly slower focus speed. I for one cannot re-create the problem. I swear, it's just about as fast as if i was focusing in broad daylight.

Can any of the other people who have the issue reply with the lenses they've used, the subject/color they're shooting, and try it with different speed lights with fresh batteries?

 

[AudioGlenn]

Have you used it in a live situation yet? Dark venue like a wedding reception or another event.

Also, I just realized that I shot at my cousin's wedding on 12/30/12 with my gear. It wasn't a paid gig for me so it didn't come to mind when I replied. I just shot for fun while the hired photographer did the actual work.

yes it was dark on the dance floor. yes, I used my mk3 and 600 (and an addtl of camera flash). No, I didn't feel any lag in the AF.

 

[jaayres20]

no i haven't but i think a pitch black room with no lights on in the middle of the night is pretty much the same thing as far as lighting conditions go.

From what I read the distance of the object lit by the af assist seems to have a significant impact on the focusing ability, next to the lens used... and your "pitch black" setup might sound like a worst case scenario, but not that's necessarily true because in real life the camera has to deal with varying combinations of af and real light.

good point. I was focusing on something about 5 ft in front me. I was able to see the AF beam through the camera because it was so dark and the red really stood out.... and yes, when I say pitch black, I mean pitch black. no street lights shining in through a window... nothing. pitch BLACK.

so anyways, i tested again with as much distance as I could in the same room... the longest dimension of the room is about 30 feet so I just pointed at the wall 30 ft away, even though i couldn't see a damn thing, waited for focus, and shot.... AF worked fine, like I was in a well lit room. the wall was far enough away that I sure as hell couldn't see the AF beam on it. Focus was fine.

I have other thoughts on variables that might be tripping people up:

1) what lenses are we having issues with? I used both the 24-70 2.8 II and the 70-200 2.8 IS II... both at 2.8 when I did my "testing". Maybe f/4 lenses are having a harder time seeing the AF beam in low light.

2) Also, would the color/pattern of what you are focusing on in low light contribute to the camera having a hard time. For example, if the subject was RED in color, or even had something with red tones in it, maybe there wasn't enough contrast between the subject and the AF beam from the 600.

3) Maybe the problem is in the speed lights and not the 5D mk3. Low batteries maybe? maybe without fresh batteries, the AF assist beam isn't bright enough. or maybe some of the new 600 ex-rt units (remember those are new too) have issues

I'm just trying to find a way to re-create the issue that people are having. There's obviously enough of a problem (or two) with this combo that a lot of people are noticing a significantly slower focus speed. I for one cannot re-create the problem. I swear, it's just about as fast as if i was focusing in broad daylight.

Can any of the other people who have the issue reply with the lenses they've used, the subject/color they're shooting, and try it with different speed lights with fresh batteries?

I use the 70-200 f/2.8L IS II and it is the lens I have the most issues with. I have shot 20+ weddings with that lenes two 5D3s and 3 600ex flashes. I have been in a lot of different lighting conditions. What I don't like is that the AF assist beam makes focus worse in most cases. When it is very dark or even black then the AF assist helps and I don't have as many issues. I have found that there are surfaces that absorb more light that make the af assist almost useless. For example if the bride and groom are dancing then I focus on lighter areas like her dress or faces. If I miss and focus on a black tux then there is not hope for the AF assist it is just absorbed by the tux. My problem is that when it is dark but not very dark the lens and camera focus better without the AF assist. I have done it a 100 times where I have attempted focus and the AF assist beam will blink 3 full times before I can get a focus lock. When I turn off the AF assist beam the camera focuses instantly on the same thing in the same light. These lighting conditions are frustrating because it can range to light enough for no AF assist to pitch black and needing the AF assist in seconds and I am stuck messing with my settings and turning on the AF assist for 10-15 seconds. In that time I may have missed something important. Instead I would like to keep it on all of the time instead of switching it on and off. If I leave it on all of the time I am stuck with the frustrating 2-3 AF assist blinks while the camera locks focus. I have found a way around that where I have set the camera up to release priority instead of focus priority so it will allow me to take the picture before the red confirmation blink. 90% of the times those shots are in focus but there is always a chance it isn't and I am afraid that I may miss something important especially at a wedding if I rely on it to be focused before it says it is.

 

[Louis]

Hello All,

Please remember to post your findings onto this link also, http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/5D3-AF-assist-beam-slower-focus/td-p/2277 Its Canons forum, so far we have had Canon respond twice, the more we help them look into this, the more we may get a solution,

all the best

Louis

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Hello All,

Please remember to post your findings onto this link also, http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/5D3-AF-assist-beam-slower-focus/td-p/2277 Its Canons forum, so far we have had Canon respond twice, the more we help them look into this, the more we may get a solution,

all the best

Louis

Considering the amount of posts and information that is already here in this thread and several other threads, what do you think the chances are that someone from Canon that is reading the posts on the Canon forum might simply click over and read the CR threads if the links are posted on their forum? Just sayin'...

 

[Marsu42]

Considering the amount of posts and information that is already here in this thread and several other threads, what do you think the chances are that someone from Canon that is reading the posts on the Canon forum might simply click over and read the CR threads if the links are posted on their forum? Just sayin'...

Personally I doubt the really important people who could actually fix things (i.e. the Japanese devs) read the US Canon forum either - with the lack of easy reproducibility some really important photog or tester would have to step on their toes so they actually try to provoke the problem, otherwise the "don't ask, don't tell" solution comes to mind... some mod in the Canon forum writing some comforting words imho doesn't mean anything.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Agreed. As long as Canon sees strong sales numbers and plenty of good press for the 5D3, I'll be amazed if this is addressed in any major way. If there was some bad press and sales were off, heads would be rolling and 5D3 repairs would be a priority. I'm afraid it's likely that simple. I would love to be wrong and see some major changes in the next firmware release!!